Jon Snow in AFFC...he seems to be a bit of a prick now!

[Mattyp]

Now Jon isn't in the novel a lot but I definitely sense an underlying theme of Jon going bad. First off the way he talks to Samwell in their meeting, he seems like an entirely different character who has no respect for the guy who got him the role in the first place.

Then he sends Maester Aeron away with Sam and he has now fallen ill. (Not sure what happens to him but it doesn't look good).

Then the business with separating Gilly from her child to save the life of a child that means literally nothing to him. I personally feel that is very 'un-jon like'. A boy who has never met his mother, or know who she was, separating another child from his mother? I think GRRM has fucked Jon's character up a bit there.

These hints at Jon's change of character of subtle but they don't bode well for the next book!

[The Knight of Flowers]

Surely splitting a mother from her baby is a lesser evil than ensuring another baby is burnt alive? I think Aemon explains that to Samwell quite early on in their voyage (same chapter as we find out about the swap, I believe).

[Mattyp]

Surely splitting a mother from her baby is a lesser evil than ensuring another baby is burnt alive? I think Aemon explains that to Samwell quite early on in their voyage (same chapter as we find out about the swap, I believe).

But he is effectively killing Gilly's child. Even Jon knew that. He would never admit to Stannis that he sent away the real price beyond the wall, so for all we know Melisandre could still burn Gilly's son.

[Don't_call_me_Ser]

But he is effectively killing Gilly's child. Even Jon knew that. He would never admit to Stannis that he sent away the real price beyond the wall, so for all we know Melisandre could still burn Gilly's son.

well we've not got there yet, but i doubt he'd let the burning go ahead. Plus, he's the leader of a sworn brotherhood against the unknown evil that is approaching, with dubious "friends" by his side. He needs to think big picture, upsetting a friend and a new mother isn't that high on the importance stakes i'd imagine.

[Tyrionthebest]

Now Jon isn't in the novel a lot but I definitely sense an underlying theme of Jon going bad. First off the way he talks to Samwell in their meeting, he seems like an entirely different character who has no respect for the guy who got him the role in the first place.

Then he sends Maester Aeron away with Sam and he has now fallen ill. (Not sure what happens to him but it doesn't look good).

Then the business with separating Gilly from her child to save the life of a child that means literally nothing to him. I personally feel that is very 'un-jon like'. A boy who has never met his mother, or know who she was, separating another child from his mother? I think GRRM has fucked Jon's character up a bit there.

These hints at Jon's change of character of subtle but they don't bode well for the next book!

If you read Adwd you will understand better .

[zmflavius]

But he is effectively killing Gilly's child. Even Jon knew that. He would never admit to Stannis that he sent away the real price beyond the wall, so for all we know Melisandre could still burn Gilly's son.

Would he now?

[Needles Fury]

I'm about half way thru with AFFC. I'm inclined to agree with you that from the few moments we spend with Jon in this book, he seems to show that he has changed but IMO for the better! He's not just a brother of the nights watch anymore he's LORD COMMANDER now!! He's been thru hell an back again an the worst is yet to come for him i'm sure!. His focus now is to be become great at every thing he was good at! With people plotting against him all around him an coming to him he needs to be a lil ruthless....Noway he lets the red priestess burn the baby an i'm sure the last resort if he cant stop her is to tell her that is not Manders child! Your spot on with your opinion of Jon's new attitude even Sam says as much in his later POVs but the LORD COMMANDER needs to be able to makes those hard choices don't you agree??

[Mattyp]

I'm about half way thru with AFFC. I'm inclined to agree with you that from the few moments we spend with Jon in this book, he seems to show that he has changed but IMO for the better! He's not just a brother of the nights watch anymore he's LORD COMMANDER now!! He's been thru hell an back again an the worst is yet to come for him i'm sure!. His focus now is to be become great at every thing he was good at! With people plotting against him all around him an coming to him he needs to be a lil ruthless....Noway he lets the red priestess burn the baby an i'm sure the last resort if he cant stop her is to tell her that is not Manders child! Your spot on with your opinion of Jon's new attitude even Sam says as much in his later POVs but the LORD COMMANDER needs to be able to makes those hard choices don't you agree??

I do partly agree with you. I suppose in the grand scheme of things he is maturing to the role that is required of him. I suppose it's the whole separating a mother from her child aspect that I thought Jon would have struggled much more with.

[Tammy]

I do partly agree with you. I suppose in the grand scheme of things he is maturing to the role that is required of him. I suppose it's the whole separating a mother from her child aspect that I thought Jon would have struggled much more with.

Well, we do only see it from Sam's POV in AFfC. In ADwD, you get to see it from Jon's POV.

[Queen Beyond the Wall]

I don't think his decisions make him a prick at all. I think they were probably among the hardest he has had to make so far, and probably not made lightly. This is where he is caught between a rock and a hard place, and one of the first times he has had to choose between friendship and duty. He made a tough but mature decision for his age.

[T-Payne]

I don't think his decisions make him a prick at all. I think they were probably among the hardest he has had to make so far, and probably not made lightly. This is where he is caught between a rock and a hard place, and one of the first times he has had to choose between friendship and duty. He made a tough but mature decision for his age.

I agree. How "nice" of a guy Jon is is neither here nor there really. We know he had heart in the beginning and still does. The change that is going on is his acceptance of reality and his duty. There are simply tough decisions to be made and his personal life will inevitably suffer. This is why the Night's Watch requires every Brother, especially its Lord Commander to forsake all of their former relationships, alliances, possesions, and ambitions right from the start. Jon especially is being put to the test though because of his family ties and the war he has been dragged into.

My curiosity at this point (the end of Feast) is how Jon will react to Stannis as the story continues. I can't imagine that Stannis will simply pack up and go try to take Westeros without finding a way to use Jon especially after doing him the favor of liberating the Wall from the Wildlings. He seems very frustrated with Jon's blind commitment to his duty, even with the prospect of Winterfell and a Warden's position being dangled in front of him (remind you of someone that's missing a head?). At the same time I think Stannis respects his fortitude. Any thoughts?

[Bri3nne]

Now Jon isn't in the novel a lot but I definitely sense an underlying theme of Jon going bad. First off the way he talks to Samwell in their meeting, he seems like an entirely different character who has no respect for the guy who got him the role in the first place.

Then he sends Maester Aeron away with Sam and he has now fallen ill. (Not sure what happens to him but it doesn't look good).

Then the business with separating Gilly from her child to save the life of a child that means literally nothing to him. I personally feel that is very 'un-jon like'. A boy who has never met his mother, or know who she was, separating another child from his mother? I think GRRM has fucked Jon's character up a bit there.

These hints at Jon's change of character of subtle but they don't bode well for the next book!

George had to do that with Jon's Character. It's called the Game of thrones. You're either a player or a pawn. Jon simply decided to become a player which is quite unfortunate for Samwell and others like him because now they're the pawns.

[Arya's Needle Work]

In regards to Mattyp, I completely disagree with you saying GRRM has completely "fucked" up Jon's character. GRRM knows what he's doing, and he does everything for a reason. Jon may seem different and more serious, but wouldn't you be too if you had the weight of commanding the Night's Watch on your shoulders? He never asked for the position, nor did he want it much. He longs to be able to spend more time with his friends and just be a regular man of the Night's Watch. Responsibility and experience has "evolved" Jon's character, but definitely NOT fucked him up. To me Jon seems sad and morose. I don't believe he enjoys his new promotion.

[Mattyp]

In hindsight claiming his character was 'fucked up' was an overreaction. Still I hope ADWD shows Jon struggling with this decision. It's just such a long way removed from the Jon who was asking after his mother.

[Gillio]

That's true, he is no longer defining himself by who he's related to, but by who he is himself. Ironic eh?

[Elder]

My thoughts on this are simple, we're seeing everything from Sam's perspective. Before it was always through Jon's eyes. According to Sam he's being very harsh and we're left to question whether or not Jon has changed, but I like to think that we're being swayed in one direction because of how Sam feels about these different decisions Jon is making. I'm hoping for more answers in ADWD myself.

[Canadian Goose]

Now Jon isn't in the novel a lot but I definitely sense an underlying theme of Jon going bad. First off the way he talks to Samwell in their meeting, he seems like an entirely different character who has no respect for the guy who got him the role in the first place.

:agree: Haha when I read this part I was so dissapointed. What happened to the Jon Snow I know and love? :crying:

UNTIL, that is, I started ADWD. When you read things from his POV it seems like what he's doing is justified, although he could've still been nicer to Sam. I'm still reading ADWD so I guess I'll just have to see what happens to him

[Awakened Edna]

I'm not to ADWD yet, but I think Jon made a smart, tough decision in separating babes and mom/aunt. I would think that saving the babe from Melisandre allows for the possibility of a family reunion down the road. Also, there is a difference between Jon never knowing who his mom is/was or the circumstances of his existence and what he does to save Mance's baby.

AND I think Jon's tough decisions and change of tone signal his growing up (obviously) and his acceptance of a leadership role in the mold of Ned Stark. Ned raised all those boys with well-defined ideas of what it means to lead, and Jon is following that advice. I do hope he ends up better than Ned did with it, though.

[kephv]

Also, there is a difference between Jon never knowing who his mom is/was or the circumstances of his existence and what he does to save Mance's baby.

Those circumstances are so strangely similar (right down to the fact that both were kings/princes sons and never knew their mother) that even if Jon did know, I think he'd have to understand from being put in that situation himself.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

But he is effectively killing Gilly's child. Even Jon knew that. He would never admit to Stannis that he sent away the real price beyond the wall, so for all we know Melisandre could still burn Gilly's son.

That's not the impression I got at all. I got so frustrated with Sam in AFfC (what's new?) because he couldn't seem to figure it out, even though he's supposed to be a smart guy, and knew what kind of a guy Jon was. And beyond any doubt, Maestar Aemon made it plainly clear to him why he did it, yet the concept was still difficult for him to grasp.

Jon didn't care that Mance's son was a "prince" (because he technically isn't in Jon's mind, since "King-Beyond-the-Wall" isn't a hereditary title). He only sent him away because he knew Gilly's son wouldn't make a bit of difference to Stannis. In ADwD we find out that Jon fully expects to take the axe if it ever comes to that. He says something to the effect that if Stannis comes asking for Gilly's son, the Night's Watch will be in need of a new Commander.