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Crannog Man

Is Jayne Westerling Carrying The Heir Of Winterfell?

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I just thought of this while replying to another post. Could Jayne be pregnant by Robb? If not, why mention so many times in Robb's POVs to Caitlyn about how hard he and Jayne were trying?

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You're also told that her mother had been giving her tea to "help"... but then you find out that her mother was a Tywin lickspittle the whole time. I'm pretty sure that the tea was actually a contraceptive and everything there was part of a plot to bring about the Red Wedding.

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This isn't as clear as the other poster says.

WARNING: INCLUDES MINOR ADWD SPOILERS (nothing crucial to the plot, nothing huge is spoiled, focuses mainly on a conversation between Jaime Lannister, Sybel Spicer (Jeyne Westerling's mother) and "Jeyne")

Catelyn notices Jeyne Westerling's hips, immediately upon meeting her new daughter in law. She sees them as good child bearing hips (which are normally wide, or at least suggest the girl doesn't have a petite frame). Contrast this with how she views Roslin Frey, as delicate and petite with narrow hips. Catelyn is worried about Roslin's fertility, and mentions this to a maester.

In ADWD, Jaime happens upon Riverrun, and without giving anything huge away, he also meets "Jeyne" Westerling (so we're lead to believe). Sybel Spicer, her mother, says that she was giving Jeyne contraceptives (ie moon tea) to ensure she didn't become pregnant by Robb. However, Jaime looks "Jeyne" Westerling over closely, and notes she has breasts like apples, and NARROW hips. This makes no sense - why would Catelyn assess a girl and think "This girl has good hips for child bearing" while Jaime Lannister, assessing "Jeyne" for possible signs of pregnancy, thinks "Jeyne" had NARROW hips (ie not good for childbearing).

Note, Jeyne has a younger sister, named Eleyna (I think). It's quite possible that they presented the younger Westerling girl to Jaime to avoid getting punished (as the Westerlings are Lannister bannermen). Also, the fact that Edmure seems "entirely too smug/pleased" with himself after Riverrun is handed over peacefully, simply for letting the Blackfish escape, doesn't jive with me.

Also, (Spoilers give away more of what happens wrt Riverrun and the Tullys)

when Jaime treats with Blackfish, Jaime makes a comment along the lines of "Why are you still fighting, there's no more King of the North, Robb Stark is dead...why do you still fly the Direwolf Banner?" To which Blackfish responds "Look more closely Kingslayer, the Direwolf still flies above our battlements....the war isn't over" (these aren't direct quotes just paraphrasing).

It would make sense to me if Jeyne, once found pregnant, was secreted off and taken somewhere safe and hidden from the Lannisters or their allies. Hence the continued loyalty to the Starks, and continuing to fly the Direwolf banner - why else would Riverrun still fly the Direwolf banner, if all hope of their cause was lost?

Some mention that Robb Stark did leave a will, and named Jon Snow his heir (assuming Bran and Rickon had been killed, that Sansa was married to Tyrion Lannister, and Arya likely dead).

But resting their hopes solely on the chance that Jon Snow would agree to continue being King of the North seems thin....Catelyn never liked him and she told her relatives he wasn't to be trusted.

It makes a lot more sense to me that Riverrun continuing to fly a Direwolf banner, instead of just their House sigil, the Leaping Trout, suggests that Jeyne Westerling might indeed be pregnant.

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You're also told that her mother had been giving her tea to "help"... but then you find out that her mother was a Tywin lickspittle the whole time.

When do we find out about the mother? Are you referring to (very minor spoiler here ) Tywin going through parchments to sign and one is a pardon for the Westerlings? I took that as too vague to be conclusive concerning the Westerlings' loyalties, then again, I'm constantly surprised at details I miss.

Apologies if the previous post covered this territory, but it had too much spoilery so I stopped reading it.

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This isn't as clear as the other poster says.

WARNING: INCLUDES MINOR ADWD SPOILERS (nothing crucial to the plot, nothing huge is spoiled, focuses mainly on a conversation between Jaime Lannister, Sybel Spicer (Jeyne Westerling's mother) and "Jeyne")

Catelyn notices Jeyne Westerling's hips, immediately upon meeting her new daughter in law. She sees them as good child bearing hips (which are normally wide, or at least suggest the girl doesn't have a petite frame). Contrast this with how she views Roslin Frey, as delicate and petite with narrow hips. Catelyn is worried about Roslin's fertility, and mentions this to a maester.

In ADWD, Jaime happens upon Riverrun, and without giving anything huge away, he also meets "Jeyne" Westerling (so we're lead to believe). Sybel Spicer, her mother, says that she was giving Jeyne contraceptives (ie moon tea) to ensure she didn't become pregnant by Robb. However, Jaime looks "Jeyne" Westerling over closely, and notes she has breasts like apples, and NARROW hips. This makes no sense - why would Catelyn assess a girl and think "This girl has good hips for child bearing" while Jaime Lannister, assessing "Jeyne" for possible signs of pregnancy, thinks "Jeyne" had NARROW hips (ie not good for childbearing).

Note, Jeyne has a younger sister, named Eleyna (I think). It's quite possible that they presented the younger Westerling girl to Jaime to avoid getting punished (as the Westerlings are Lannister bannermen). Also, the fact that Edmure seems "entirely too smug/pleased" with himself after Riverrun is handed over peacefully, simply for letting the Blackfish escape, doesn't jive with me.

eh, i doubt it. when Jaime met with Jeyne and her mother, Jeyne seemed too distraught over the death of Robb to be anything but herself. I'm also sure that most of the Freys and Frey bannermen were familiar with the Westerlings and would tell Jaime if the girl was an imposter. Although the hip thing is interesting.

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I must admit that I have also wondered if Jeyne Westerling could possibly be pregnant with Robb's child. There was a discussion between Jeyne and Catelyn about her trying to give Robb an heir and how important it was to them all.

Then there was the episode mentioned where Jeyne and her mother meet up with Jaime and he remarks on her appearance, which is quite different from Catelyn's description of her. That is odd!!

She also acts very distraught when her mother tells Jaime that Jeyne couldn't possibly be pregnant because she was giving her moon tea, but I also think that could have been an act on Jeyne's part to keep Jaime from knowing the truth.

If she was pregnant she would not have told Jaime anyway. She may even have kept it from her mother. Jeyne would have wanted to get as far away from everyone that she couldn't trust before her pregnancy became too evident.

Like so many other things in GRRM's writing, real truths seem to lie just slightly underneath the surface.

GRRM is a great author in that way. He definately keeps you guessing! So, she could be carrying the next heir to the Starks. I've learned not to count alot of ideas out since I have been reading this series! ;)

Also, I had never thought about the Blackfish's comments concerning flying the sigil of House Stark. :dunno:

It also makes sense to me.

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ok, so maybe the Blackfish DID smuggle Jeyne out of Riverrun. Come to think of it, why else would he leave? He's not a coward, and like Ned, he's spent his life learning to die. Jaime would have likely allowed him to take the black anyway so there would have been no reason to run, even if he was afraid of being killed.

now i'm certain that either he or Jeyne will be a POV in the next book.

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plus we also learn that the 'jeyne' jaime meets has a bruise or some other blemish on her face (possibly to conceal that it was the little sister -- hard to really tell when someone is bruised or swollen).... AND on top of that, we learn that, when they were marching, she always kept her head down and a hood on... thus not letting anyone get toooooo good of a look at her.

i think its perfectly plausible, with what we've been told, that jeyne was switched... in fact, i think its likely. Is she pregnant? Who knows, but I do this she escaped.

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This is my least favorite theory people have brought up. It exists entirely on a single comment about differences in hip sizes, and with bran and rickon we have enough fake dead starks.

Jaime and catelyn could easily have different perspectives on hip sizes. Or she could have been wearing different clothing, which often affects perspectives. Every other aspect of the descripition is similar.

Note, Jeyne has a younger sister, named Eleyna (I think). It's quite possible that they presented the younger Westerling girl to Jaime to avoid getting punished (as the Westerlings are Lannister bannermen).

No, this is wrong. The westerlings were specifically pardoned as the mother deliberately set Robb and Jeyne up in order to get Robb to break his oaths to the freys. The mother was involved in a plot with Tywin, and she knew they wouldn't get punished. Its the exact reverse, the Spicers, who are Jeyne's maternal family are given lands and the reynes old castle as a reward for setting jeyne up with robb.

Moreover, eleyna is 12. I think Jaime can tell the difference between a 16 year old girl and a 12 year old.

ok, so maybe the Blackfish DID smuggle Jeyne out of Riverrun

Yeah, I'm going to say an alledgly pregnant 16 year old girl did not swim under a gate raised only 3 feet high across several armed camps.

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This is my least favorite theory people have brought up. It exists entirely on a single comment about differences in hip sizes, and with bran and rickon we have enough fake dead starks.

Jaime and catelyn could easily have different perspectives on hip sizes. Or she could have been wearing different clothing, which often affects perspectives. Every other aspect of the descripition is similar.

it seems pertinent that she's mentioned as almost hiding her face. furthermore, it doesn't have to be elayna. as far as the dead starks, it's not just the starks, but seemingly everyone, everywhere. ramsay masquerading as reek, jeyne poole is fake arya, who knows who or what "aegon" is? it's a pretty common theme.

if it were just a matter of her wearing different clothing, why on earth even mention it? seems like a pointless detail to raise such a contradiction.

No, this is wrong. The westerlings were specifically pardoned as the mother deliberately set Robb and Jeyne up in order to get Robb to break his oaths to the freys. The mother was involved in a plot with Tywin, and she knew they wouldn't get punished. Its the exact reverse, the Spicers, who are Jeyne's maternal family are given lands and the reynes old castle as a reward for setting jeyne up with robb.

where does it specifically imply this? if the westerlings set robb up with jeyne as part of tywin's scheme, why weren't they in on the red wedding? why would lady westerling send her son to the twins if she knew that tywin was trying to get robb to piss off the freys? she mentions herself that she would have never sent him if she knew about it, and he was supposedly killed (though doubtful that he was). no, i don't think that they were in on any plot to get robb to break his oath, it just happened.

Moreover, eleyna is 12. I think Jaime can tell the difference between a 16 year old girl and a 12 year old.

with narrow hips and small breasts. but it doesn't have to the sister, anyways.

Yeah, I'm going to say an alledgly pregnant 16 year old girl did not swim under a gate raised only 3 feet high across several armed camps.

what's the westerlings' sigil?

not to mention the fact that her brother is most certainly alive and escaped the red wedding wounded, by way of the river. i think the westerlings are swimmers.

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what's the westerlings' sigil?

Nine seashells. However, the Westerlings do not show any sign of being seafolk or riverfolk.

not to mention the fact that her brother is most certainly alive and escaped the red wedding wounded, by way of the river. i think the westerlings are swimmers.

I wouldn't say the brother is most certainly alive, given that had some crossbow bolts in him and fell from the walls which are likely around thirty feet tall or so. It's a possibility though.

And as I said above, seashells aside, the Westerlings show no sign of swimming ability.

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Nine seashells. However, the Westerlings do not show any sign of being seafolk or riverfolk.

I wouldn't say the brother is most certainly alive, given that had some crossbow bolts in him and fell from the walls which are likely around thirty feet tall or so. It's a possibility though.

And as I said above, seashells aside, the Westerlings show no sign of swimming ability.

it's kind of funny to say they've shown no sign of swimming ability. it's not like they have the olympics in westeros.

and what does their sigil need to be to believe that they are sea folk? seashells aren't found in the sea?

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it's kind of funny to say they've shown no sign of swimming ability. it's not like they have the olympics in westeros.

and what does their sigil need to be to believe that they are sea folk? seashells aren't found in the sea?

For example, the Manderlies have a mermaid sigil, but the Manderlies can't swim (most obese people can't).

Castles on the sea are not few in number. Storm's End is on the sea, but the Baratheons aren't famous for swimming.

Of course, there are no olympics, but swimming ability could be displayed, by, well, swimming.

The Westerling's motto is "Honor, not honors" suggesting that if they are famous for anything, it's their sense of honor before reason.

The Crag is on the seashore; but for all we know, they might have seashells because they've always had more seashells than gold.

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how do you know the manderlies can't swim? and the westerlings by all accounts aren't obese, so there goes that argument.

stannis is famous for his ability as an admiral, i'm sure given the chance that he could swim pretty well. he managed to survive the blackwater, along with his friend davos--who's ability as a swimmer was pretty well documented.

how many characters have actual chapters in which they are written about as swimmers? blackfish, davos, connington, damphair? not very many, does that mean only 4 people in the world can swim? i believe you'd have to use your intuition here and be intellectually honest. if they have a castle on the sea it's highly likely that they have some experience swimming.

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how do you know the manderlies can't swim? and the westerlings by all accounts aren't obese, so there goes that argument.

Because I do swim, and obese people do not do well. And it was an example; My point was not that obese people can't swim, but that sigils are just that, sigils.

ADWD Spoilers

Illyrio mocks the Westerosi concept of sigils, where he invites Tyrion to spend some time in a cage with lions, and see how much he likes it

Other examples include the fact that Tytos Lannister was nearly mauled by a lion, sigil notwithstanding.

stannis is famous for his ability as an admiral, i'm sure given the chance that he could swim pretty well. he managed to survive the blackwater, along with his friend davos--who's ability as a swimmer was pretty well documented.

Stannis spent the Battle of the Blackwater entirely on land, and Davos is a Seaworth, and the first of his line, one of the few men who actually picked a sigil according to his personality traits. Considering how Stannis delegated the control of the fleet to someone else, I would imagine that speaks less of his ability as an admiral.

For example, you would not say that green-apple Fossoways are by definition less experienced in warfare than red-apple Fossoways, though the first green-apple Fossoway picked his sigil because his brother (or was it a cousin?) told him he was green.

how many characters have actual chapters in which they are written about as swimmers? blackfish, davos, connington, damphair? not very many, does that mean only 4 people in the world can swim? i believe you'd have to use your intuition here and be intellectually honest. if they have a castle on the sea it's highly likely that they have some experience swimming.

So do the Lannisters, and they certainly aren't famed for their ability to swim.

And Connington can swim?

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Because I do swim, and obese people do not do well.  And it was an example; My point was not that obese people can't swim, but that sigils are just that, sigils.

ok, so because you swim, that makes you an expert on obese people swimming? hard to follow the logic on that.

and you state the sigils are just sigils but for some reason bring up the westerling motto? wouldn't the logic follow that mottos are just mottos? i'm really having a hard time following your support of the point.

ADWD Spoilers

Illyrio mocks the Westerosi concept of sigils, where he invites Tyrion to spend some time in a cage with lions, and see how much he likes it

again, i don't get how this relates at all to the point.

would you deny that targaryens rode dragons? that the cleganes were kennel masters? that the freys guard the crossing at the twins? that the tullys are lords of the river? that the tyrells are gardeners? that there are bats in harrenhal? that it's sunny in dorne? that davos brought onions on a ship to storm's end? that the starks are wargs? that the greyjoys are seafarers? that the boltons flay people?

i don't really see how it bolsters your point at all, but i wouldn't go down the sigil road again if i were you.

Stannis spent the Battle of the Blackwater entirely on land, and Davos is a Seaworth, and the first of his line, one of the few men who actually picked a sigil according to his personality traits.  Considering how Stannis delegated the control of the fleet to someone else, I would imagine that speaks less of his ability as an admiral.

stannis destroyed the victarion-led greyjoy fleet. that qualifies as a badass on the sea.

For example, you would not say that green-apple Fossoways are by definition less experienced in warfare than red-apple Fossoways, though the first green-apple Fossoway picked his sigil because his brother (or was it a cousin?) told him he was green.

this is getting even more abstract. i have no absolutely no idea what you're getting at.

So do the Lannisters, and they certainly aren't famed for their ability to swim.

why do you have to be renown for your ability to swim in order to be a swimmer? why can't you simply be a good swimmer without it having to be the most important part about you? i can swim, and most people probably wouldn't mention my ability as a swimmer in a 10,000 word description of me.

you don't have to be michael phelps in order to be a good swimmer, you know. your argument is just weird.

And Connington can swim?

yep, he saved tyrion from drowning, remember?

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ok, so because you swim, that makes you an expert on obese people swimming? hard to follow the logic on that.

It qualifies as personal experience. If you see obese people swim, and they have a hard time swimming because they have to move a greater bulk, and because obese people in general are not the most athletic people, your personal experience would tell you that obese people are not the best swimmers.

And anyhow, my point is that the Manderlies are not famed for their swimming ability, even though they own one of the largest ports in Westeros. Your point was that living near the coast suggested that one could swim, my counterpoint was that this hardly proved anything.

and you state the sigils are just sigils but for some reason bring up the westerling motto? wouldn't the logic follow that mottos are just mottos? i'm really having a hard time following your support of the point.

You can have it one way or the other, you may have it that the house symbols are merely symbolic, or that they actually mean something. If the seashells mean something, then there is no reason for the motto to not mean something, unless it doesn't suit your point. The inverse follows. If you insist on the seashells meaning something, but the motto doesn't support this point, then you haven't proved anything. The converse follows.

again, i don't get how this relates at all to the point.

We were talking about sigils weren't we? Illyrio is making a point about how meaningless they are.

would you deny that targaryens rode dragons? that the cleganes were kennel masters? that the freys guard the crossing at the twins? that the tullys are lords of the river? that the tyrells are gardeners? that there are bats in harrenhal? that it's sunny in dorne? that davos brought onions on a ship to storm's end? that the starks are wargs? that the greyjoys are seafarers? that the boltons flay people?

i don't really see how it bolsters your point at all, but i wouldn't go down the sigil road again if i were you.

Do the Karstarks have a giant sun on their castle? Did the Manderlies sleep with Mermaids? Do the Baratheons interact with stags in any way that's unique to them? Do the Lannisters do anything special with lions other than wear clothing covered with them? Do the Braxes ride unicorns? Doe Ser Rodrik Cassel have a pack of ten white wolves at his beck and call? Is Ser Addam Marbrand a pyromaniac? Is Ser Ilyn rolling in money? Does Sam like hunting? I wouldn't go down the sigil road again if I were you. Which is a minor issue when your entire argument (westerlings can swim because they have seashells in their sigil) hinges on this fact.

And FTR, the Tyrells are only descendants of the Gardener King, like, well, every house in the Reach. And there are bats in Harrenhal?

stannis destroyed the victarion-led greyjoy fleet. that qualifies as a badass on the sea.

We're talking about the same Victarion who needs to pull off his shoes and pants to count to twenty-one right?

this is getting even more abstract. i have no absolutely no idea what you're getting at.

Sigils are meaningless in terms of determining character or ability.

why do you have to be renown for your ability to swim in order to be a swimmer? why can't you simply be a good swimmer without it having to be the most important part about you? i can swim, and most people probably wouldn't mention my ability as a swimmer in a 10,000 word description of me.

you don't have to be michael phelps in order to be a good swimmer, you know. your argument is just weird.

To swim while pregnant, under a three foot grate, silently past encampments full of soldiers? Or while arrows are sticking out of you after falling thirty feet into the river? An average swimmer doesn't cut it, and neither does having seashells on your shirt.

And while we're on the subject, the point was that living on the shore does not guarantee your swimming ability.

yep, he saved tyrion from drowning, remember?

Ah, right.

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It qualifies as personal experience. If you see obese people swim, and they have a hard time swimming because they have to move a greater bulk, and because obese people in general are not the most athletic people, your personal experience would tell you that obese people are not the best swimmers.

And anyhow, my point is that the Manderlies are not famed for their swimming ability, even though they own one of the largest ports in Westeros. Your point was that living near the coast suggested that one could swim, my counterpoint was that this hardly proved anything.

so are all the manderlies bad swimmers? or just the two we've met thus far (who have not been proven to be bad swimmers, btw)? lots of former professional athletes are fat. this is a very weak point if you can even consider it a point at all.

You can have it one way or the other, you may have it that the house symbols are merely symbolic, or that they actually mean something. If the seashells mean something, then there is no reason for the motto to not mean something, unless it doesn't suit your point. The inverse follows. If you insist on the seashells meaning something, but the motto doesn't support this point, then you haven't proved anything. The converse follows.

ugh. you bring up an argument of rhetoric to cover up the lack of real argument that you have?

very well, have it your way, i can argue through the rhetoric. first of all, it was YOU that introduced the motto as the be-all-end-all of familial abilities, and this was after you told me that sigils didn't mean anything. so, you introduced your hypocrisy first. secondly, a motto doesn't have to encapsulate everything about a family, if it did, it would be quite a dull family indeed. however, if a motto mentions specifically water or the ocean, one could infer that the family was in some way seafaring or watergoing. the sigil, in this part, passes the test, as the sigil could have been literally about anything concerning family abilities or interest.

We were talking about sigils weren't we? Illyrio is making a point about how meaningless they are.

a lot of characters say a lot of silly or pointless things. why take your lessons from illyrio?

Do the Karstarks have a giant sun on their castle?

no, but the sun of winter applies very well to a northern family. and why does it have to be on the castle to be appropriate? it seems like a very random idea to have.

Did the Manderlies sleep with Mermaids?

why do they have to sleep with mermaids to have a merman as their sigil? this is getting even more bizarre.

Do the Baratheons interact with stags in any way that's unique to them?

one would imagine it's because they are hunters, obviously.

Do the Lannisters do anything special with lions other than wear clothing covered with them?

ferocious and golden, that would be the lannisters.

Do the Braxes ride unicorns?

i don't know why they'd have to ride purple unicorns in order to put it on their sigil. i mean, you take things very literally when it suits you and then not at all when it doesn't.

Doe Ser Rodrik Cassel have a pack of ten white wolves at his beck and call?

again, he's from the north, there are lots of wolves in the north, that and it's probably an homage to the starks. i don't understand why that's so hard to understand. if rodrik cassell was a wolf himself, you would ask, "why isn't rodrik cassell 10 wolves?"

Is Ser Addam Marbrand a pyromaniac?

maybe his ancestor was, the one who designed the sigil.

Is Ser Ilyn rolling in money?

"There's a tale behind those coins," said Tyrion, "no doubt Pod will confide it to your toes one day....."

Does Sam like hunting?

Sam is an embarrassment to House Tarly and was sent to Wall because of it.

I wouldn't go down the sigil road again if I were you.

I warned you not to do it, I am not responsible for what I just did to your brain.

Which is a minor issue when your entire argument (westerlings can swim because they have seashells in their sigil) hinges on this fact.

i don't speak in such absolutes. i simply said that it was a possibility. your concrete mind took that as someone making a definitive statement.

And FTR, the Tyrells are only descendants of the Gardener King, like, well, every house in the Reach.

ok?

And there are bats in Harrenhal?

yes, bats infest the unused towers. however there no bats ON the castle and house whent was never mentioned to have had sex with bats, by all accounts, they did not ride them into battle, nor were the bats at their "beck-and-call". so, i guess anything's possible.

We're talking about the same Victarion who needs to pull off his shoes and pants to count to twenty-one right?

no, the Victarion that kicks pretty much everyone's ass.....except Stannis's.

Sigils are meaningless in terms of determining character or ability.

ffs, are you insane? all i said was that having a water sigil could mean that the family may know how to swim fairly well. you again are taking this to a ridiculously unnecessary extreme

To swim while pregnant, under a three foot grate, silently past encampments full of soldiers? Or while arrows are sticking out of you after falling thirty feet into the river? An average swimmer doesn't cut it, and neither does having seashells on your shirt.

so, do you want to bet me that the knight of seashells is still alive? you want to put something on it?

And while we're on the subject, the point was that living on the shore does not guarantee your swimming ability.

it certainly doesn't hurt.

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