Dany won't save Westeros from the Others, the Others will save Westeros from Dany

[Francis Buck]

Sounds crackpot I know, but give me a chance. I don't have this completely figured out yet, particularly some stuff with the prophecies, so it's kind of a work in progress. Nonetheless, I do believe that the "main points" of it have a good chance of being true. This will likely turn into a long post, so bear with me. I'm going to first lay out a few basic concepts that I think support the actual theory, which I'll get to in a second.

For starters, I think there are many, many "red herrings" (for lack of a better word) in this series, placed there to make us think one (often the most obvious) thing when the reality is quite different. I believe this includes most of the prophecies, including Azor Ahai and the Prince That Was Promised, along with much of the various religious mythology in the series.

Secondly, I think that the history of the world, particularly ancient history (beyond a few thousand years or so) is more or less completely unreliable. Well, not completely, but it's very distorted. GRRM has sprinkled numerous hints throughout the series that the generally accepted history of the world may not be the whole truth, and is in-fact more akin to being legends derived from history, as opposed to actual historical fact in and of itself. I think this is most important when it comes to the Others.

Now I come to magic and it's connection with religion. I do not believe that, at least in GRRM's mind, there are any actual "gods" per se. I don't think there's actually a R'hllor, or the Seven Gods of the Faith, or anything really. I think this is partially supported by the fact that even the old gods turned out to not really be "true" gods in the typical sense of the word, but simply a group of incredibly powerful wargs capable of near omniscient awareness and knowledge. In addition, I also believe that magic itself is really just one "thing"; all magic comes from the same "source", whatever that may be, and is simply attributed to different gods and deities by the humans that use it. There's also a lot of similarities between much of the magic in the world, particularly that of resurrection and prophecy. We have seen resurrection in MANY forms, from the Others and their necromancy, to R'hllor and the red priests, and even with the seemingly unrelated blood magic. In addition, prophecy also appears in at least three different "schools" of magic: looking into fire, greendreams, and again blood magic (Maggy's prophecies about Cersei). I don't think all of these connections are simply coincidental or arbitrary; it's because all magic is essentially the same, just used or "manifested" in different ways. In other words, I think that, for example, the resurrection used by the Others and the resurrection used by red priests are fundamentally the same kind of magic, just used for different purposes.

So now that all of that is laid out, let me go over the basics of what I think the story is building up to, and what will more or less ultimately take place.

Firstly, I do not think there is an ultimate group of good guys and bad guys. I think there will definitely be two main armies at the end, but neither will be clearly good or evil (this fits in with GRRM's adherence to the "grayness" of humanity in general). These two armies, at least in a basic sense, can essentially be broken into the North and the South. The North will include Stannis and all of the loyal Northmen, along with the Petyr Baelish-controlled Riverlands, and Jon (who will be resurrected; I'll get to that later) leading all of the wildlings and the remnants of the Night's Watch, all of which will be rallied beneath the renewed House Stark (almost certainly through Rickon; I believe this is basically his primary purpose in the story). On the other-hand we have the South, led by Danaerys and her armies, combined with Aegon (who I believe is legitimate) and his armies, and thus Dorne, as well as most of the other southern armies (the Lannister's forces will be rallied through Tyrion, who is now the true heir to Casterly Rock, and whom I believe will essentially become Dany's Hand of the Queen), all of which will be held under the renewed House Targaryen (notice the parallels...the Starks (ice) were seemingly destroyed and will rise again, just as the Targaryens (fire) were seemingly disbanded but are about to rise yet again). The Tyrells and the Greyjoys are kind of wildcard at this point, but if I had to guess I would say the Tyrells will ultimately rally with Dany and Aegon, while the Iron Islands will be basically be split up, with Victarion and his forces (wielding the Dragon Horn) siding with Danaerys, and Euron (spurned by Victarion's betrayal) siding with the North. These two armies will be formed, or at least be in the process of forming, by the end of Winds of Winter. This aspect of the theory is probably the one I'm most certain of, but it's still not really the bread and butter of it.

The real point here kind of comes down to Jon. I believe Jon will be resurrected by Melisandre in much the same way Cat was. However, I think Jon will be rather different than he was before (again, GRRM has been quoted saying that were will be a "graying" of Jon's character, which I think we began to see a little bit of in aDwD, and which will only continue to grow as the series progresses). I think that Jon will essentially become the new Night King. He will go against his vows (which he is theoretically freed of by his "death") and basically rally all of the Night's Watch and the wildings to his cause, which is the retaking of the North and the revival of House Stark. But it goes deeper than all of this. Let me explain my theory about the Others.

The Others are not truly "another species". They were once humans, but had access to great resurrection magic (the same magic used to revive Cat, Beric, etc.). However, I believe that they had used this magic to revive themselves so many times, over so many thousands of years, that they eventually transformed into something very different; all the "fire of life" had gone out of them, and they became beings of cold, both literally and figuratively (though they are NOT inherently evil, simply remorseless and without mercy in their cause, just like Cat). So in a sense, Cat could be viewed as something of a "baby Other" (silly term I know, but you get my meaning). I believe that Melisandre is actually even further along in this process, as we have had hints that she is much older than she appears (likely having been resurrected many times), and is simply using her illusory powers (the jewel upon her neck) to hide her true appearance.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the Starks are associated with coldness and winter, to the point of even being known as the Kings of Winter (a title they will soon reclaim). I would not even be surprised if the Others are actually descendants of the northern peoples. But getting back to Jon, I believe Melisandre will ressurect him, and then Jon, freed of his vows, will take her as his wife and truly become the new Night King (the last Night King took a pale women as his bride and could raise and control undead during the night...and what's the only time that the Others and their undead come around? The night). I think the idea that R'hllor's magic and the Others are at odds is actually just another red herring; the two forms of magic are fundamentally intertwined (as you can see, the title of the series, A Song of Ice and Fire, is not so simple as it may seem, and in fact plays upon many different levels of the saga). I also believe that Jon's Targaryen lineage, assuming it's real (which I think it is), does not have to same meaning people think it does. I do not think that Jon will be one of the "three heads of the dragon"; in fact I think the whole three-heads thing is a little over emphasized (though if I had to guess who they were, I would say Dany, Aegon, and Tyrion...but again I don't think this is really super relevant to the story at large).

Which brings us to the prophecy of the Great Other. I do not think GRRM would place such an idea into the series if the truth was so obvious. The Great Other is not THE Others (how much more obvious can you get?), but in fact the Great Other is simply the other foe, the other enemy, the one will bring "darkness" to Westeros; Dany. I hesitate to use this description, but for the sake of argument I will: I think that Dany could essentially be seen as the "main bad guy", at least from the perspective of the Starks and the North in general. What's brilliant though is that I don't think we're SUPPOSED to look at either Jon and his army or Dany and her army as being the "good guys and the bad guys". We've seen them both from the beginning more or less. Dany believes what she is doing is entirely right, and in a way it is (from her perspective). But then what Jon is doing (or what he WILL do) could also be seen as the right thing. Again, in the end, there are no true good guys or bad guys. Just people fighting for what they believe in.

So finally we come to central point behind all this; that when the Others finally do come (not until near the end of the last book, if I had to guess), they will be under the power of the Night King, and will essentially save the North, though at the cost of bringing a terrible winter upon the land (thus allowing the Starks to regain their power, and once again becoming the Kings of Winter). I think Sam's story also plays into this. We know he has a mysterious broken horn; I believe it is the Horn of Joramun. Except instead of it being used by some unknown enemy or by the Other's themselves to break down the wall, it will be used by Jon and the Northmen to bring down the wall to actually allow the Others to come and ultimately help defeat the Danaerys. Another interesting parallel here; one horn for the south (to control dragons), one horn for the north (to "free" the Others).

So that's just the basic broad strokes of it. I could go on even more, as I have theories about how Bran and the Children (who I believe are definitely as not benign as they seem, and in fact may have been responible for originally teaching the men of the north the powers of resurrection). I also think that Littlefinger and Sansa of course have a large part to play in all of this, though I believe their story will be more important to the actual formation of the two main armies then it will to the endgame scenario. I also have some fairly detailed ideas behind how exactly AA and the PTWP fit into all this, but I'll add those a little later since this is already long enough.

I know there are definitely some kinks in this theory, but I do think that, at least in the larger sense, a lot of this is going to happen. At the very least, I do NOT believe that the end will just be Dany allying with Jon and the rest of Westeros against a big showdown with the Others. It's just way too obvious for GRRM, and doesn't really fit with tone he has tried so hard to create with this series.

Let me know what you think.

[quine]

I agree with your overall idea, that the coming fight between the Others and Dany/her dragons will not be a straightforward "good vs. evil" situation. This is supported by the following comment by Elio and Linda on Sean T. Collins' blog:

I am reminded that at the L.A. Worldcon in 2006, George was on a panel and he was talking a bit dismissively about the cookie-cutter fantasies with a Dark Lord that's the ultimate evil, wants to destroy the world, etc. and he said, you know, nothing is ever that black and white in reality, history's greatest villains and monsters were, from their own perspective, heroic, etc. And he basically said he didn't want to write about a Dark Lord sort of situation.

And so someone followed up asking, Well, what about the Others? They seem pretty clearly evil.

He paused and then smiled and said we'd have to keep reading to see where that goes.

Although, as you point out, there are a lot of pieces to fill in! Here are a few thoughts I've had on this.

In this thread, I argued that Coldhands is an Other, and this led me to believe that Bloodraven (and soon Bran) will work with the Others. One possibility is that Bloodraven, through Weirwood visions, has seen something about the Others in the past that we have not learned through recorded history. After all, history is written by the victors, and if there were anything redeeming about the Others, it is unlikely this be passed down by those that opposed the Others. But Bloodraven, with his visions of the past, may have seen something different, and will now show it to Bran.

As you say, Martin's quote about Jon becoming more "gray" supports the idea that he too will work with the Others. Indeed, he has already shown a capacity for looking beyond the traditional enemies of the Night's watch, by helping the Wildlings escape south of the Wall. If he, too, was shown something about the Others to make him see that they were not pure evil, it would not be inconsistent for him to work with them.

On the other side, I think we've had ample evidence that Dany and her dragons are not necessarily forces of good: Dany murdered all those people after the victory at Meereen, while her dragons are savage, uncontrollable beasts. She has also shown that she is not particularly good at ruling a kingdom. When she comes to Westeros with her dragons, the result may well be disastrous.

Many have wondered what the Others are waiting for: they could, in fact, be waiting for Dany to arrive with her dragons.

One end-game possibility is the two forces annihilating one another, leaving those caught in the middle (guesses: Sansa, Tyion, Jaime, Brienne, Arianne, Theon, Asha?) to pick up the pieces and rebuild.

[jc1138]

I like this post, and think that there could well be something to this. One "clue hidden in plain sight" (I'm sure this has been pointed out before) is the name "other," which implies something different, misunderstood, but not necessarily evil (or especially EVIL).

[dizzy]

I like your theory about what the Others actually are. So you think the Faceless men with all their actions are on the 'Ice' side?

[Black Crow]

This is more or less exactly what I've been arguing myself on various more or less relevant threads, with the difference that I don't believe Jon will be revived by Mel the Succubus as she's clearly on the other side, but (assuming he needs reviving) by the Old Magic of the North through Bran and or Bloodraven and that his destiny is to lead the White Walkers, the Children of the Darkness and all the other North peoples against the forces of the Red God - and as I've just argued elsewhere, that far from being AA his ultimate destiny may be to slay AA (Dany?)

[Black Crow]

Double post

[Shaggydog Stark]

Well this is certainly more interesting than good vs evil, which is so simplistic. It will also leave the readers torn inside. On the other hand, didn't Jon have a dream where he was slaying the Others with his red sword? I don't have the book in front me of me right now, but I do recall he was standing on top of the wall slaying something.

[Black Crow]

Well this is certainly more interesting than good vs evil, which is so simplistic. It will also leave the readers torn inside. On the other hand, didn't Jon have a dream where he was slaying the Others with his red sword? I don't have the book in front me of me right now, but I do recall he was standing on top of the wall slaying something.

He was slaying a variety of dead people he had known and in the interests of fairness it should be remembered that Jaimie Lannister was inspired to turn back and save Brienne from wearing that awful gown after having a dream in which he killed a large number of people with a flaming sword.

[Gogossos]

Well, that was fun reading but I disagree with the overall conclusion you reach. However, there are some points I agree with. The point about religion and magic is brilliant. I liked how Martin illustrated it by using the comet: everyone from KL, to the north and Essos thought it was a sign from their own god. Also, Dany's ability to raise the dragons has not really been explained - we know her family has tried before but why was she successful? The dragons coincided with the arrival of more overt magic but the Stark direwolves preceded Dany's dragons - so, who's responsible for more magic?

You also argue that magic comes from the same source but manifests itself differently. A good argument but which source? The COTF & greenseers? Some other as yet unseen source mistakenly taken as R'hllor or The Seven? It could be argued that men cause all the misunderstandings but if Dany's dragons and the Others' resurrection come from the same source what would cause the conflict?

Dany being the bad guy, I feel, is arbitrary since you didn't explain why she would be the baddy. The Starks could easily be the bad guys, aligning themselves with the Others/COFT/Bloodraven combo, enabling Dany to be the "heroine" of the piece. In any case, if you believe R+L=J what would its ultimate purpose be, if it's not to align Jon and Dany's interests? Having said that, I think there's weight to the suspicion that a Jon vs Dany conflict could easily engulf the new post-Others'-invasion society but I think that's only a minor risk.

[Shaggydog Stark]

He was slaying a variety of dead people he had known and in the interests of fairness it should be remembered that Jaimie Lannister was inspired to turn back and save Brienne from wearing that awful gown after having a dream in which he killed a large number of people with a flaming sword.

Nice analogy. I need to go back and read that chapter.

I really like this theory though. A North vs South war. Really good thinking, and as long as the Freys get smashed in the middle, I am well content :devil:

[Black Crow]

Dany being the bad guy, I feel, is arbitrary since you didn't explain why she would be the baddy. The Starks could easily be the bad guys, aligning themselves with the Others/COFT/Bloodraven combo, enabling Dany to be the "heroine" of the piece. In any case, if you believe R+L=J what would its ultimate purpose be, if it's not to align Jon and Dany's interests? Having said that, I think there's weight to the suspicion that a Jon vs Dany conflict could easily engulf the new post-Others'-invasion society but I think that's only a minor risk.

GRRM has repeatedly stated that he doesn't do the Good vs Bad, so deciding whether Jon or Dany is the hero/villain is always going to be a matter of personal preference and indeed looking at other threads is already dividing a great many readers. The point about setting up a situation in which Jon rallies the followers of the Old Gods - including the Children and the White Walkers - against those of the Red God (who certainly think Dany is their chosen one) is that it provides the whole saga with a climactic focus. It means the "Others" have always been with us and are not just this anonymous threat hanging around in the wings ready to come in 10 pages from the end, just in time to be vanquished after all the other petty story lines have been resolved. They are central to the story and have been right from the beginning.

[quine]

So you think the Faceless men with all their actions are on the 'Ice' side?

I was wondering this myself. Their god certainly seems to oppose R'hollor, as the faceless men themselves opposed the Valyrians. This would also give the opportunity for Arya to get involved back in the main storyline.

[LordManderBlee]

Don't forget Craster and his keep, he's proof that the Others are can be communicated with in some way. He gives them his children for protection, they're not just mindless. I think you might be onto something, maybe a war between north and south is what this will come down to.

[Zeromus]

They're in for a tough job.

They've got to stop her mad rampage through Essos first.

[The Lost Lord]

It's some good outside-the-box thinking. The biggest problem I see is that the Undying House seems to strongly indicate that Dany will marry Jon.

[quine]

It's some good outside-the-box thinking. The biggest problem I see is that the Undying House seems to strongly indicate that Dany will marry Jon.

The prophecies speak of various things "for love", but why must this refer to Jon?

[Zeromus]

The prophecies speak of various things "for love", but why must this refer to Jon?

Because Jon is easily the best fit.

[Black Crow]

The prophecies speak of various things "for love", but why must this refer to Jon?

It doesn't and falls into the same easy thinking trap that casts Jon as AA after getting kissed better by Mel

[quine]

Because Jon is easily the best fit.

In what sense? Again, the prophecies themselves give no indication as to who should be the "for love" bit.

If we're talking in terms of the story, this also strikes me as rather unlikely. Dany's never met Jon, and she isn't likely to for quite a while. Nor does he strike me as Dany's type: she seems to prefer wild, impulsive warriors (Drogo, Daario), and while Jon has some skill as a fighter, I wouldn't put him in the same category as either of those two.

[The Lost Lord]

The prophecies speak of various things "for love", but why must this refer to Jon?

Not that part. Dany sees three visions after "daughter of death" (three of her dead family members), three after "slayer of lies" (probably three lies she will slay, one being Stannis/Azor Ahai and one the mummer's dragon), and three after "bride of fire." In that final section she sees a metaphorical representation of Drogo, a corpse on a ship with smiling grey lips, and a blue flower growing from a wall of ice.