Descriptions of Male vs. Female Characters: Another Sexism Thread

[Verboten]

Many and More is now my favourite poster. :bowdown:

[Texty]

Heh. Admit to some amusement--if not surprise--at the response my post got. :)

Just a couple of quick notes, and then I must bow out due to lack of time (not interest!)

1. Oppression does not excuse bad behavior in response to it, especially when that bad behavior manifests in actions that further that oppression for others. Cersei encouraging Jamie to kill Bran was bad enough, but she lost all claim to being seen sympathetically when she offered up poor Sansa to her vicious kid. Again, oppression may explain her actions, but it does not excuse them. Which is pretty much how we deal with things in the real world, too. She's a classic sociopath, and I find it kind of amusing that she's managed to manipulate even readers into feeling sorry enough for her that they'll ignore all the horrendous things she's done. Has she suffered somewhat? Sure. As has every other woman (and the vast majority of men) in this universe. But not every other person responded to that suffering by revisiting it on innocents. Her few iotas of conscience don't erase every other horrid thing she's done. She's every bit as loony and evil as Viserys, and I see very few people excusing his horrid behavior, or mourning his well-earned comeuppance. The fact of her being female should not earn her more scorn than comparable men, no. But neither should it earn her less.

2. I have no problem calling out authors and other creative folks for bigotry, even when it's unconscious. However, I'm not into baby-with-bathwater approaches, and I favor carrots over sticks. I'd rather encourage people who are heading in the right direction than condemn them if they unintentionally stray from the path. I spose we could condemn him for creating a story set in a universe that's inherently riddled with sexism. But we'd have to do that with virtually every story set in a medievalesque time that didn't specifically set out gender equality as part of its base canon. Even hardcore feminist authors put their heroines through hell. Shall we consider them all sexist as well?

3. Lastly, to clarify my bit about Loras keeping his wits about him: I mean in the sense that, despite being besotted with Renly and making some bad choices based on that, he's far more aware of the threats that surround him than Sansa was. Some of this can of course be attributed to being a bit older than her, but some of it is also because men in his culture--even pretty, flamboyant ones like him--are trained to be more observant and less passive. Also, I think Sansa--regardless of gender--is kind of an idiot to begin with. Whether that's willful (in trying to ape an ideal of a passive, airhead princess) or just because she wasn't born with the brains the rest of her siblings got, I dunno.

ETA: Also, since it seems to have been misinterpreted, when I'm talking about gender-coded traits, I'm talking about traits that a given culture (ours or the story's) ascribe to males and females. I don't--goodness, surely my condemnation of essentialism should make that clear?--mean that such traits are inherent. In modern Western culture, for instance, vanity is coded as a feminine trait, even though in it's not remotely exclusive to women. It may be, in common practice, more likely to be found in women than men, but that's because of cultural conditioning, not biology. (This is the crux of the argument against essentialsm, btw. And I'm still surprised essentialism is as popular as it is, considering how often it's been used as a tool of oppression.)

[brashcandy]

3. Lastly, to clarify my bit about Loras keeping his wits about him: I mean in the sense that, despite being besotted with Renly and making some bad choices based on that, he's far more aware of the threats that surround him than Sansa was. Some of this can of course be attributed to being a bit older than her, but some of it is also because men in his culture--even pretty, flamboyant ones like him--are trained to be more observant and less passive. Also, I think Sansa--regardless of gender--is kind of an idiot to begin with. Whether that's willful (in trying to ape an ideal of a passive, airhead princess) or just because she wasn't born with the brains the rest of her siblings got, I dunno.

:lmao: Ah yes, because we see sooo many men in ASOIAF being observant and less passive. Robert and Ned would have benefitted from that bit of insight I can tell you.

As for your bit about Sansa, it's so vile it doesn't even warrant responding to seriously.

[Queen Cersei I]

:lmao: Ah yes, because we see sooo many men in ASOIAF being observant and less passive. Robert and Ned would have benefitted from that bit of insight I can tell you.

As for your bit about Sansa, it's so vile it doesn't even warrant responding to seriously.

I'm in a hurry so can't afford to post at length until later, but one quick thought-- in response to this:

Whether that's willful (in trying to ape an ideal of a passive, airhead princess) or just because she wasn't born with the brains the rest of her siblings got, I dunno.

Seriously? You think Sansa was unfortunate in the brains department? Honestly, I think that at least one of her siblings (Robb) could have benefitted from her self control and good judgement.

Your assessment of Sansa as an "airhead princess" is certainly popular. However, I can hardly picture Sansa, knowing that she is already promised to the son of a powerful house, deciding to screw some other guy in a moment of emotional weakness, and then proceeding to marry said guy (against political expediency and basic common sense) because it was "the right thing to do." Nor could I see her going on to attend a wedding at the residence of the powerful, proud lord she so recklessly insulted and rejected, expecting that everything would be okay, because, you know, she came to apologize.

Robb was smarter than Sansa? I'd say that's a long shot.

Also considerably dumber than the 13 year old Sansa? Her father, age 35. Learning from experience is often under rated, because it is not seen as a sign of innate intelligence. However, it should not be. The fact is, not everyone CAN learn from experience. Some people are too stubborn, to preoccupied with their ideas of what is right and wrong and correct and incorrect to see the forest for the trees. (Hello, there, Ned Stark!)

[headtrip_honey]

Cersei encouraging Jamie to kill Bran was bad enough

Perhaps I read a different book, but I could have sworn Cersei was incredibly pissed that Jaime tried to kill Bran. I believe her argument went something along the lines of, "He's just a little kid! He didn't understand what he saw! We could have frightened him into silence!"

[Hound's She-wolf]

(Incidentally, Loras and Sansa share a "feminine" failing: they let starry-eyed love lead them into making some bad choices. The difference is that Loras still manages to keep his wits about him in general. Frankly, Renly's more comparable to Sansa on that front, though. He let his fairytale ideals about monarchy and war rule his judgment. And got hisself dead for his trouble.)

How is this a feminine failing?

You have mentioned Loras and Renly, what about Robb, Jorah, Rhaegar, even the mighty LF tried to duel Brandon Stark because of love. Seems like there's a lot of girly guys running around Westeros.

Oh, and I forgot Aerys and the one handed wonder Jaime.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Can we defend Sansa without trashing the other Starks? I would like to give you all the "like" tick but am unable to do so when I see that by defending Sansa you guys are in effect trashing my Stark boys......grrrrrrrr

[headtrip_honey]

Can we defend Sansa without trashing the other Starks? I would like to give you all the "like" tick but am unable to do so when I see that by defending Sansa you guys are in effect trashing my Stark boys......grrrrrrrr

I don't see it as "trashing" so much as "acknowledging their failings."

No one's perfect - I love the Starks, but a lot of them had judgment problems. Doesn't mean I don't still adore them.

[Hound's She-wolf]

Can we defend Sansa without trashing the other Starks? I would like to give you all the "like" tick but am unable to do so when I see that by defending Sansa you guys are in effect trashing my Stark boys......grrrrrrrr

Down Shaggydog, down, it's OK. Good dog.

[Shaggydog Stark]

@headtrip

See I just gave you a tick ;)

[Shaggydog Stark]

Down Shaggydog, down, it's OK. Good dog.

I was baring my fangs! :lol:

[Hound's She-wolf]

I was baring my fangs! :lol:

I know, as one lupine to another, I felt your pain.

[Shaggydog Stark]

I know, as one lupine to another, I felt your pain.

You crack me up Hound's She-wolf. :lol:

[Cruella]

He let his fairytale ideals about monarchy and war rule his judgment.

Like when? Renly seemed very practical man for me, at least from what we've seen. It is entirely possible that if not for black magic, he would be ruling Westeros right now.

He seemed like a guy who knew how important appearances are, but cared about reality - good example is when he says that Robb can call himself King in the North in the North, but must swear fealty to him.

Renly realized that his popularity can make him king ahead of "ideal" candidate, rightful candidate, Stannis. That's not remotely idealistic of him. He seemed pretty kind, for Westeros man anyway, but not idealist (that would be Ned) or into fairytales.

He gave Ned practical, cynical advice (grab Cersei's kids and you have her), explained to Stannis value of populism over "right"... Where's the fairytale?

If he didn't rush into battle, it was because waiting was more profitable to him - time drew more and more people to his banner. He made his claim and waited for those hesitating to switch onto his side. and the bigger his host would be, the more nobles would want to join him, et cetera.

More academical discussion about essentialism is interesting, but I don't see many of the things that you're talking about. Certainly Loras is last person I'd put forward as "smart", nor do I think Sansa is reaping consequences of her character flaws, which she undoubtedly has, not in much more substantial way that Rickon does, anyway. She's just an ordinary teenage girl in AGOT, I've certainly seen smarter and deeper (which appears to be sacrilige to some people...), I've seen dumber. However, what happens to her is because she ends up in hands of cruel queen and psychopathic king, she's like a fly taken by hurricane. If not for hurricane, "consequences" of her being ordinary westerosi noble girl would be more along the lines of crying because Loras didn't propose to her or because her beloved smiled to another chick. She's not more to blame for what happened to her than Arya for ending up in hands of Gregor Clegane.

As for "female character can't win" - I remember Catelyn being criticized by several posters for crippling grief at Bran's bad, for failing to be a good housefrau and to tend to such matters of vital importance as picking up new stable master. Poor Luwin and Robb had to pick up slack after grieving mother, which undoubtedly hurt them and crushed their spirit. One poster even said that her grief was "stupid". However, Dany was also criticized for not falling apart after losing her child, her "lack" of grief. Sansa was criticized for not grieving for Bran, I think. That always struck me as weird, especially Catelyn part, since it wasn't just one poster. How much grief exactly are you allowed to show when your child is dying in front of you?

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Instead of comparing the way Cersei is portrayed to the way men are portrayed, I think it's better to make a comparison among the portrayals of the female characters. GRRM sets up some very obvious, very extreme, contrasts between certain female characters and those contrasts are what cause the conflict between them. I believe these contrasts are more a literary device than a philosophical one, and meant to drive the plot. However, these portrayals may also be regarded as sexist because they are so stereotypical, and the larger question could be, "why are the male characters so complex and the female characters so one-dimensional?"

The first extreme contrast is between Arya and Sansa. Arya is portrayed as a complete, unrelieved Tomboy: independent, active, combative, competent, egalitarian. Sansa is portrayed as a complete Little Lady: passive, pleasing, pretty, popular, elitist. It's the Popular Mean Girl vs. the Nerd all over again. These character extremes are totally unrealistic – Tomboys can like pretty dresses, and Little Ladies can stick people with the pointy end -- but the conflict that develops between Arya and Sansa sets the stage for most of the events in AGOT, and it's a great story.

The second extreme contrast is between Sansa and Cersei. Sansa is portrayed as the naive Damsel in Distress (the website TV Tropes and Idioms describes her characterization as Innocence Virgin on Stupidity, and yes, that's a pun.) Cersei is the experienced, manipulative Beautiful Bitch. It's Snow White and Malificent redux. In ACOK and ASOS, the story of Cersei's dominance over Sansa is compelling, however, in AFFC the opposing portrayals go off the rails. Not only does Sansa become better, sweeter, prettier and sharper, she remains undefiled even though she's surrounded by lechers. Meanwhile Cersei is shown doing the exact opposite, among other things, becoming slovenly, slutty and even crueler. But as we know, Madonna trumps Whore, and the Beautiful Bitch is on her way to her comeuppance. These characterizations may be regarded as sexist: the beautiful, nubile virgin in danger is a male fantasy (so the nerdy male reader can imagine rescuing her, and then deflowering her), as is the Beautiful Bitch who gets punished IN THE NUDE.

At the same time, the contrast between Arya and Sansa is becoming more extreme. Sansa's in the Vale protecting her innocence, taking baby steps toward courage, and (perhaps) on her way to becoming the lady of a Great House. Arya's in Braavos, working as a fishwife, using language like "camel's cunt," tasting human flesh in her dreams and learning to be a super evil Ninja assassin. House of Black and White, indeed! I haven't a clue how these divergent arcs will eventually converge, but in the context of ASOIAF, I think the question to ask is "which character will be punished, and why?"

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I think a reader (i.e., me) can be a feminist and still dislike the characters of Cersei and Sansa. Can we remember we're talking about fictional characters, here? But to summarize, I dislike Cersei's character because I think she's a cartoon, a plot device to motivate more complex characters. I dislike Sansa's character because I think she's a drip, and as a female Nerd, I have a deeply ingrained prejudice against pretty, popular girls. However, I'm on Sansa's side, so to speak, because as much as I dislike pretty, popular girls, I hate sexual exploitation more. My opinion of Sansa would change if she snapped and, say, kicked LF in the balls while he's choking to death on the Strangler, but I know nothing like that is going to happen. She's destined to be rescued because she's the appointed Damsel in Distress.

[Queen Cersei I]

Actually, I don't see Loras showing any "feminine-coded" traits other than his sexual preference for men. And Loras does not "keep his wits about him" nearly as well as Sansa does.

I totally agree with this, and I’m sorry if it looks as though I totally copied your ideas in my own earlier post (regarding Loras’s emotional instability, and Sansa’s comparative clear headedness.) I actually didn’t read your post until this morning, otherwise I wouldn’t have bothered to do such a long, tedious post detailing at length what you managed to say in, like, four sentences.

Regarding Loras and his “feminine traits,” I couldn’t agree more. One thing that strikes me as slightly disturbing about this characterization is that homosexuality has (ridiculously) been equated with “femininity” in men in our culture. At any rate, Loras is idealistic and romantic, however, I don’t really see how these traits are particularly feminine either. If anything, I see Loras as very “conventionally masculine”—hot tempered, aggressive, more likely to react (during emotional situations) with violence than with careful thought, strong and skilled with weapons, etc. (By no means to I consider these traits “unfeminine,” but the fact is that society generally does.) As LF notes, Loras is very like Jaime Lannister, who I don’t recall anyone ever accusing of possessing too many “feminine” traits. (He is every bit as romantic and starry eyed (up until AFFC) as the considerably younger Loras, though he likes to sleep with girls, so…?)

P.S.—Texty, I am not trying to imply that you are invoking gay stereotypes or anything, here. And though it’s possible that I misunderstood some aspects of your post (with the Renly thing, in particular, I feel as though I must be missing something), I did understand that you were criticizing (rather than agreeing with) society’s tendency to label particular traits as “masculine” and “feminine.” (And the way this is used to excuse bad behavior from both sexes.) However, I disagree with you on many specifics, namely your characterization of Sansa… and your belief (very common) that those who defend Cersei must be manipulated/ short sided/ unable to understand what a sociopath is. I think the arguments that are generally made about Cersei (or at least those that Many and More made here) are far more subtle and complex than that.

[Cruella]

Strange, I am a nerd, but I just have nothing against pretty, popular girls. it just seems pathetic to me. I am not saying it to insult you, it's just one of those things I always felt strongly about and did my damnedest to avoid - disliking someone because they are prettier, more popular, etc, than me, unavaliable or something. I'd just lose all self-respect if I felt this way. Because when you respect and like yourself, there is no need to dislike people who are different.

It would be different if she were mean, but Sansa isn't mean, she doesn't have this kind of sense of humor. When Jayne laughs at Arya's humiliation, Sansa doesn't, she's too prim and proper.

So when cruelty's not the reason, all that left are sour grapes towards "pretty and popular" and it's kinda.. sad?

His attitudes are sensible, realistic, and cynical.

As a supremely cynical person, that must be why I like him so. Afterall, cynicism is just another word for realism.

[Queen Cersei I]




2. I have no problem calling out authors and other creative folks for bigotry, even when it's unconscious. However, I'm not into baby-with-bathwater approaches, and I favor carrots over sticks. I'd rather encourage people who are heading in the right direction than condemn them if they unintentionally stray from the path. I spose we could condemn him for creating a story set in a universe that's inherently riddled with sexism. But we'd have to do that with virtually every story set in a medievalesque time that didn't specifically set out gender equality as part of its base canon. Even hardcore feminist authors put their heroines through hell. Shall we consider them all sexist as well? 



Two arguments/ comments seem to keep coming up on this thread. First—there is sexism in every book, movie, work of art, which is understandable—so don’t knitpick! And secondly—everything in the books is understandable due to the sexism of Westeros society itself. It is not sexism in the text, but inherent in the setting; thus people who take issue with certain things are unable to separate the sexism of Westeros society from that of the text itself.

Regarding the first issue (there is sexism in all books, a certain amount is inevitable), I suppose I agree. However, sexism comes in varying degrees, and I don’t see what’s wrong with pointing it out where one sees it. (And if someone is in the habit of seeing sexism everywhere, it’s easy to point out the vapidity of their arguments, put them on ignore, or simply refuse to get involved or take their arguments seriously.) Also, I think the idea that the text is going to deflate like a bad soufflé if it is criticized too harshly or looked at too deeply, is silly.

Secondly, regarding the sentiment—“it’s not the sexism of the text itself, it’s that of the time, and you are failing to tell the two apart”, I’d argue that this is a great response to individual arguments. However, when stated in general, as a blanket statement covering all criticisms regarding sexism in these books, it actually strikes me as unfair, not to mention reductive. It’s as though you’re saying, “since these books are based on life in the middle ages, all issues of sexism therein must be a product of the setting itself, and thus only proof that the author is portraying things “realistically.””

[brashcandy]

At the same time, the contrast between Arya and Sansa is becoming more extreme. Sansa's in the Vale protecting her innocence, taking baby steps toward courage, and (perhaps) on her way to becoming the lady of a Great House. Arya's in Braavos, working as a fishwife, using language like "camel's cunt," tasting human flesh in her dreams and learning to be a super evil Ninja assassin. House of Black and White, indeed! I haven't a clue how these divergent arcs will eventually converge, but in the context of ASOIAF, I think the question to ask is "which character will be punished, and why?"

I have to disagree with you here Sandsnake. I actually think the contrast between them has been growing less and less extreme. Both girls have experienced turmoil and violence in their lives - just in two completely different settings. Plus they've both been rescued by the Hound at one point. Now they've moved on to different environments where we suspect/know that there is some exploitation going on, but we also know that they'll benefit from what they learn there. Sansa with LF is on track to become a political player, and Arya with the Kindly old man is becoming an accomplished assassin. Both girls have shed their old identities - Arya had to become no one, and Sansa has to become Alayne. Not to mention that both no longer have wolves and are basically the two most isolated members of their family in that sense.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I think a reader (i.e., me) can be a feminist and still dislike the characters of Cersei and Sansa. Can we remember we're talking about fictional characters, here? But to summarize, I dislike Cersei's character because I think she's a cartoon character, a plot device to motivate more complex characters. I dislike Sansa's character because I think she's a drip, and as a Nerd, I have a deeply ingrained prejudice against pretty, popular girls. However, I'm on Sansa's side, so to speak, because as much as I dislike pretty, popular girls, I hate sexual exploitation more. My opinion of Sansa would change if she snapped and, say, kicked LF in the balls while he's choking to death on the Strangler, but I know nothing like that is going to happen. She's destined to be rescued because she's the appointed Damsel in Distress.

I keep hearing how Cersei is this cardboard villain, but I don't see it. I think she is a very complex character and not so simple to write off. Every person who does appalling things isn't one dimensional. Cersei is also a survivor - this alone makes her more interesting than the Ned Starks and Robert Baratheons of the world.

As for Sansa's being destined to be rescued, I'm at a loss. Even though Sansa was rescued a few times by the Hound, she's mostly managed to survive via her own strength of character and quiet resolve. When she was getting beaten daily by the KG and isolated at court, there was no one rushing to rescue her. She doesn't have to suddenly morph into a badass in order to show that she has spunk. And now that she's in the Vale, with mostly enemies and people that she cannot trust around her, she has to depend on herself more than ever.

[Verboten]

Tyrion's sexism is almost definitely made by GRRM himself as a deliberate part of the character. I don't find the sexism in the books keeps me from enjoying the story, I find the way the fans act about the female and male characters in the story really disgusting in some cases. Cersei is a bitch but she also loves her children. Catelyn is cold to Jon and acts rather rashly but if Rob had taken her advice he wouldn't be dead and if she was the one in KL the War of five Kings would never have happened. In short I dislike the tendency for armchair psychologist to apply terms like sociopath to the characters in an attempt to make the world of Westeros seem black and white.