Mirri Maz Dur

[Alexia]

There is nothing specific in that prophecy that points to Rhaego.

Tell that to the Dothraki witch who prophesied that Rhaego specifically would be said stallion. That's a really flimsy argument -- it isn't an existing legend that Drogo co-opted for his son. There was a whole ceremony and magical ritual involved in the prophecy and in prophesying that this specific child would be said stallion.

[eyeheartsansa]

The part where a dos khaleen prophecises it kind of does.

ok, but does MMD actually believe this? Because it sounded to me like she was just mocking them all.

[eyeheartsansa]

Tell that to the Dothraki witch who prophesied that Rhaego specifically would be said stallion. That's a really flimsy argument -- it isn't an existing legend that Drogo co-opted for his son. There was a whole ceremony and magical ritual involved in the prophecy.

ok, you got me, I thought this was an existing legend. :)

Doesn't change my main point though.. MMD was not on some kind of righteous mission to rid the world of some evil.. she was out for revenge.

[Talleyrand]

And also:

Except that Dany's vision in the House of the Undying, many of the others have already come true shows Rhaego burning down cities and has a pile of skulls IIRC

[Sevumar]

I don't think she was distressed over Rhaego's death, but I don't think she deliberately killed him.

This is from AGoT:

"Ser Jorah had killed her son, Dany knew. He had done what he did for love and loyalty, yet he had carried her into a place no living man should go and fed her baby to the darkness."

Dany is carried into the tent by ser Jorah; Mirri Maz Durr had warned her that no one was to enter...

I don't think we really know what happened here. On one hand, Dany says she thinks that Jorah killed Rhaego when he carried her into the tent, but all the discussions Dany has with Mirri about the "price" seem to show that Rhaego's life was it all along. It's not like there was someone or something else that was intended to die and Rhaego was substituted for it at the last moment.

[moey reed]

i asked this in the other thread, too and don't know what to make of it. do we know for a fact that MMD killed rhaego on purpose? or was it just the side effect of dany going into the tent (or being brought in by jorah)? because if i recall correctly MMD warned them not to enter the tent while she is doing her bloodmagic in there. so i always thought it wasn't on purpose. i could of course be awfully wrong with this. please correct me if so.

edit* ok kissdbyfire beat me to it ;)

[brashcandy]

Anyways, I think that what occurred between MMD and Dany was tragic. On the one hand, MMD was justified in wanting to avenge herself and her people against the Khalasar. However, killing a baby based on what he might turn out to be was not right any way you twist and turn it. In Dany's case, she was naive to think that rescuing Mirri would be enough. She didn't take into account the dehumanization that Mirri had already suffered, but she was trying in the only way she could to alleviate it. I still give Dany a lot of credit for stopping what the Dothraki were doing.

I think GRRM is showing that both women were victims not of each other, but rather of the kind of society were girls are sold into marriages (Dany) and the rape of women is legitimized as the spoils of war (Dothraki culture) and perhaps there could never have been a peaceful solution to one such as this. It needed someone to end the cycle however, and why I come down in defence of Dany is because I think she tried as best as she could to end the cycle.

[eyeheartsansa]

what's the deal with the baby coming out all scaly and shit? Any theories on this? Was MMD mocking Dany, or was there some kind of birth defect? Was it the result of some blood magic voodoo or an already existing condition?

[Sevumar]

what's the deal with the baby coming out all scaly and shit? Any theories on this? Was MMD mocking Dany, or was there some kind of birth defect?

One idea is that there was a substitution with the eggs, that they were dead/petrified until MMD's ritual and that Rhaego was a living fetus until the magic substituted his life for those of the dead dragons and breathed potential back into the eggs. Rhaego is described by MMD as appearing as though he'd been dead a long time. I think that's the strongest clue for this kind of idea.

[LordBloodraven]

No, it really isn't. Aegon had his head smashed against a wall before his mother was raped with his brains all over the hands of her rapist. Rhaenys was stabbed over fifty times after being dragged from underneath her father's bed.

Rhaego was sacrificed by his mother in a desperate attempt to revive his father. At best, you can say that MMD cheated Dany. But Dany knew the price.

MMD cheated Dany and mocked her at the end. She told her that she would cure the Khal (and she was a volunteer, nobody forced her even though I don't care about Khal Drogo's fate) then killed her baby while she was comatose. Her rationale was that all she held dear was turned to ashes by Drogo (fair enough) and that she had saved many many lives. Robert's perspective was that Aegon was a dragonspawn who could rally all the disgruntled noblemen and secret Targ loyalists, and that letting him alive would be tantamount to breeding a new civil war. Both were killed (the two cousins, Aegon and Rhaego) for what they could be...

[Alexia]

ok, you got me, I thought this was an existing legend. :)

There is a legend about it but a member of the dosh khaleen prophesied that it would be Rhaego specifically. Here it is:

As the smoke ascended, the chatning died away and the ancient crone closed her single eye, the better to peer into the future.

*snip*

Khal Drogo laid his hand on Dany's arm. She could feel the tension in his fingers. Even a khal as mighty as Drogo could know fear when the dosh khaleen peered into the future.

*snip*

Finally the crone opened her eye and lifted her arms. "I have seen his face and heard the thunder of his hooves. As swift as the wind he rides, and behind him his khalasar covers the earth, men without number, with arakhs shining in their hands like blades of razor grass. Fierce as a storm this prince will be. His enemies will tremble before him, and their wives will weep tears of blood and rend their flesh in grief. The bells in his hair will sing his coming, and the milk menin the stone tents will fear his name." The old woman trembled and looked at Dany almost as if she were afraid. "The prince is riding, and he shall be the stallion who mounts the world."

*snip*

The one-eyed crone peered at Dany. "What shall he be called,the stallion who mounts the world?"

She stood to answer. "He shall be called Rhaego."

[Bastard Walder]

MMD cheated Dany and mocked her at the end. She told her that she would cure the Khal (and she was a volunteer, nobody forced her even though I don't care about Khal Drogo's fate) then killed her baby while she was comatose. Her rationale was that all she held dear was turned to ashes by Drogo (fair enough) and that she had saved many many lives. Robert's perspective was that Aegon was a dragonspawn who could rally all the disgruntled noblemen and secret Targ loyalists, and that letting him alive would be tantamount to breeding a new civil war. Both were killed (the two cousins, Aegon and Rhaego) for what they could be...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism

[Sevumar]

MMD cheated Dany and mocked her at the end. She told her that she would cure the Khal (and she was a volunteer, nobody forced her even though I don't care about Khal Drogo's fate) then killed her baby while she was comatose.

MMD deceived Dany, but I don't think she planned the deception all along. I think there's a transformation in between the scene where she first tends Drogo's wounds and when she's asked to deal with him after he's festered. What she does to Drogo in that first session seems like legitimate and well-intentioned treatment. It's Khal Drogo's actions and disregard for MMD's instructions that cause the wound to fester.

By the time MMD is summoned again, she's been roughed up, disrespected, and ill-treated. Drogo's gone and doomed himself in the process, so MMD sees and opening to get some revenge and takes advantage of it.

[Alexia]

MMD cheated Dany and mocked her at the end. She told her that she would cure the Khal (and she was a volunteer, nobody forced her even though I don't care about Khal Drogo's fate) then killed her baby while she was comatose. Her rationale was that all she held dear was turned to ashes by Drogo (fair enough) and that she had saved many many lives. Robert's perspective was that Aegon was a dragonspawn who could rally all the disgruntled noblemen and secret Targ loyalists, and that letting him alive would be tantamount to breeding a new civil war. Both were killed (the two cousins, Aegon and Rhaego) for what they could be...

She didn't tell Dany that she would cure the khal. She said that she had a spell that could save his life but some would say death was cleaner. Dany asked if her death was the price and after MMD said no, immediately agreed without further question.

[eyeheartsansa]

One idea is that there was a substitution with the eggs, that they were dead/petrified until MMD's ritual and that Rhaego was a living fetus until the magic substituted his life for those of the dead dragons and breathed potential back into the eggs. Rhaego is described by MMD as appearing as though he'd been dead a long time. I think that's the strongest clue for this kind of idea.

nice. I had never considered this! Very cool..

[eyeheartsansa]

There is a legend about it but a member of the dosh khaleen prophesied that it would be Rhaego specifically. Here it is:

Ok, my question now is, do you think MMD put stock in this legend, and believed she was acting in a utilitarian fashion, heroically sacrificing her own life and Raego's in order to rid the world of a great evil, or do you think she was just throwing it in Dany's face to mock her and her culture?

[Talleyrand]

I think GRRM is showing that both women were victims not of each other, but rather of the kind of society were girls are sold into marriages (Dany) and the rape of women is legitimized as the spoils of war (Dothraki culture) and perhaps there could never have been a peaceful solution to one such as this. It needed someone to end the cycle however, and why I come down in defence of Dany is because I think she tried as best as she could to end the cycle.

But Mirri is a victim of Dany. Khaleesi wanted her brother's childhood home back and so Drogo went out to raise funds the Dothraki way

[Bastard Walder]

Ok, my question now is, do you think MMD put stock in this legend, and believed she was acting in a utilitarian fashion, heroically sacrificing her own life and Raego's in order to rid the world of a great evil, or do you think she was just throwing it in Dany's face to mock her and her culture?

Regardless of the prophecy, the son of a Khal whose parents want him to conquer the world is a threat.

[mediocre cheese]

Yeah it was Dany's fault, she didn't do enough research when asking about the spell. Every court has held that blood magic has a strict "buyer beware" policy.

Dany: This is not the life I was promised.

Mirri: Caveat Emptor Bitch!!!

[LordBloodraven]

http://en.wikipedia..../Utilitarianism

Can you please elaborate?