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The_Salt_Wife

Did Shae get a raw deal?

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It never says anywhere that Shae would've been tortured or killed if she hadn't testified, only that she was expecting a reward for lying about Tyrion. Remember, at first Cersei thought Shae was just another one of Sansa's servants, and nothing bad happened to any of Sansa's other maids. Shae was the one who confessed that she'd been Tyrion's whore, presumably in the hopes of getting a reward from the queen. Besides, even if Shae would've been harmed if she hadn't testified against Tyrion, she probably didn't have to go so far as telling complete lies about him. Most of the other witnesses didn't, even those who were clearly working for Cersei and/or actively hated Tyrion.

Fearsome Fred has ably addressed most of your points - but I'll address this particular paragraph because it irks me so much.

True, it never written in black and white that Shae would have been tortured - but you should realize that the wrath of a powerful House in ASOIAF is particularly fearsome.

Many innocent people perished or faced terrible cruelty when they crossed paths with Tywin Lannister and his children. Think of Tysha, Mycha the Butcher Boy, the Innkeeper at the Crossroads Inn, the Tully peasants, Sansa, and Qyburn's unfortunate patients, and that singer that Shae liked, the women+babes that bore Robert's bastards, etc..

Shae really had little choice other than to testify against Tyrion or risk the chance of facing similar recrimination.

And as for comparing Shae with Ned's confession - honorable Ned lied - ask yourself why? As you might say was he tortured?

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Gala, I liked you posts a lot (well may be not surprising since I agree with it). What I liked most is the raw truth coming from them, a frank expression of opinion as opposed to rhetorical exercise and "lawyer style" discussions (and may be I have sinned in this matter too) .

Well, everybody is entitled to their opinion I guess, and being good at bending words seems pointless when the idea is to exchange opinions, as opposed to showing off how smart you are (even though it is fun!).

In the end in the core of it's all are very basic questions - do we have free will, can we be held responsible, or are we robots programed by past.Are we a person with free will to do good or bad, or a label - a lord, a whore, a victim of abuse. Are we lazy or evil or treacherous because we also choose to , or because we were "damaged beyond repair" in youth?

I hope to believe we do have a free will. I hope to believe that people are more complicated and that not always their relations can be squeezed into conviniet patterns and stereotypes- sometimes there are things beyond what meets the eye, and sometimes the ones party who looks to be powerful is actually the weakest. (as I thinks is the matter in Tyrion - Shae relationship).

But, well.... to each his own.

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Thank you, arland! For you understanding and not thinking that I am some kind of devil or something. :)

I do know that we have a free will, whatever happened in youth or any other time, because I simply experienced it.

About stereotypes: it's not me, who made them, but that rough fantasy world makes them all the time during these books. I just use their language.

Lyvyathan, do not involve Ned here. For me Shae's name did not even deserve to be written in one line with his (for this matter for certain). WE ACTUALLY KNOW WHY HE LIED: TO SAFE HIS CHILDREN AND NOT HIS OWN NECK! His purpose was much honorable, then hers. It is a huge difference between what she did! in the end she gained a new "place under the sun" and she wouldn't be even killed if Jaime wouldn't say about Tysha (because I think Tyrion wouldn't go to kill his father and would just leave Westoros). if so, she wasn't in danger, but Ned was doomed because he WAS really HONORABLE and because Joffrey was a f*ing idiot! I know there are a lot of "if", it seems quite logical.

Plus, she knew about Tysha, but she had no idea about the others, she could only presume the danger.

Yes, she worked very hard for money being a kept woman (I do not know how you call it in English), whom she indeed was. And which is quite easy way to leave, if you are not working properly even now. I believe that was her purpose on the first place: to get a wealthy fool.

Tyrion is not a sweet little things as well, I do not argue with that, but he did show a remorse about Shae (if I do remember it right). He is smart and possessive, but she DID manipulated him successfully in order to gain something, which was her mistake not his.

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Lyvyathan, do not involve Ned here. For me Shae's name did not even deserve to be written in one line with his. WE ACTUALLY KNOW WHY HE LIED: TO SAFE HIS CHILDREN AND NOT HIS OWN NECK! His purpose was much honorable, then hers. It is a huge difference between what she did! in the end she gained a new "place under the sun" and she wouldn't be even killed if Jaime wouldn't say about Tysha (because I think Tyrion wouldn't go to kill his father and would just leave Westoros).

They both lied that much we agree. Facing the wrath of the Lannisters cause people to do funny things don't you agree?

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Gala, I liked you posts a lot (well may be not surprising since I agree with it). What I liked most is the raw truth coming from them, a frank expression of opinion as opposed to rhetorical exercise and "lawyer style" discussions (and may be I have sinned in this matter too) .

Well, everybody is entitled to their opinion I guess, and being good at bending words seems pointless when the idea is to exchange opinions, as opposed to showing off how smart you are (even though it is fun!).

But, well.... to each his own.

Well we just think that strangling to death a teenager is a tad atrocious and quite reprehensible. But I guess we have to disagree there. :D

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Alexia...

I don't know how its even possible to claim that Shae used Tyrion when he turned her into a maid and slapped her for complaining about it.

1. I will explain what I meand - She used him to learn his secrets, which she latter sold to Cercei.(on that see below)

Now you could claim that considering the inherent injustice of Westerosi society in general and towards women in particular, Shae was justified to screw a lordling anyway she wanted, just for him being such. Justified rage of proletariat,and all that. I wouldn't say such argument is entirely meritless, but I don't like it , not when it is about Shae using Tyrion, nor when it is about a former slave who rapes his owner.

2. BTW, Tyrion turned her in to a maid to protect her - we do know that. Realistically speaking, considering the starvation in KL at the time it was probably on the top 10 list of most desired jobs for lowborn women of KL.(not to say that is was a just to women in any way - it is a deeply chauvinist society)

I think that Cersei scripted most, if not all, of Shae's testimony, to be honest.

If this is the case, and Shae didn't utter a word out of her own volition, but it was all tortured out of her by Cersei - Shae obviously cannot be blamed.

My problem with this argument is the "Giant of Lannister" issue, which I repeat on and on and it seems to be ignored. Of course anything is possible - may be Varies heard it and told about it, may be Shae spilled it out in agony of torture or under use of some drug. But I trust you would agree that it is very IMPROBABLE that Cercei would learn about it unless Shae was actually eager to give testimony against Tyrion, as opposed to doing the bare minimum needed to escape torture or death.

Her testimony is nothing compared to Taena, Pycelle, Varys, KG members, et cetera -- she is a prostitute, from the dregs of society in Westeros.

Consider for a moment: She may be a lowborn but she happened to be the closest to Tyrion - the closest to the action. She could provide exclusive knowledge that all the others couldn't.

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They both lied that much we agree. Facing the wrath of the Lannisters cause people to do funny things don't you agree?

Where did I argue with that? The question is in the purpose of lie and the person that lied. if take seriously a character in a book, I would still insist that there is a huge difference between those two (Ned and Shae) in both: personality and their purpose of lie.

and yes, Arland was right to point out that everyone has its own view on things...even about an invented world. I am not trying to convince that i'm right, I was just confused when I was blamed to giving my vision of the story, that's all folks :) especially, when somebody who do not know anything about me put a lable on me and charged me with things that I would never do. It is stupid, because we are discussing a fantasy book (I've repeated that for hundreds of times now and once more to keep people in reality)

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BTW, Tyrion turned her in to a maid to protect her - we do know that. Realistically speaking, considering the starvation in KL at the time it was probably on the top 10 list of most desired jobs for lowborn women of KL.(not to say that is was a just to women in any way - it is a deeply chauvinist society)

That's exactly what I tried to say!

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lyvyathan,

Well we just think that strangling to death a teenager is a tad atrocious and quite reprehensible. But I guess we have to disagree there.

Gosh, I am so exited to finally meet with royalty :)

Truly masterful argument, only slightly bettered by "you are dumb" (or something along this line) argument, used by someone before.

I am smitten - it is atrocious! If only he would have stabbed her, decapitated her, gutted her, had her poisoned, beaten to death with a hammer, hanged, drowned ...But strangled??? What a little monster!

And a teenage. Once again you got me on my knees. It is all my repressed rage at teenage girls in my high school who didn't want to show me their cherries (if you know what I mean, wink, wink).

Actually she was near 20 by the time (she looked near 18 in AGOT), but let's not spoil it.

.... Oh...wait. now I get. Of course you were talking about beloved teenage king Jeofry being strangled! That was truly atrocious act done by Tyrels. They have killed Jeoffry! You bastards!

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lyvyathan,

Gosh, I am so exited to finally meet with royalty :)

Truly masterful argument, only slightly bettered by "you are dumb" (or something along this line) argument, used by someone before.

I am smitten - it is atrocious! If only he would have stabbed her, decapitated her, gutted her, had her poisoned, beaten to death with a hammer, hanged, drowned ...But strangled??? What a little monster!

And a teenage. Once again you got me on my knees. It is all my repressed rage at teenage girls in my high school who didn't want to show me their cherries (if you know what I mean, wink, wink).

Actually she was near 20 by the time (she looked near 18 in AGOT), but let's not spoil it.

.... Oh...wait. now I get. Of course you were talking about beloved teenage king Jeofry being strangled! That was truly atrocious act done by Tyrels. They have killed Jeoffry! You bastards!

Why are you "so exited"?

I didn't say you were dumb did I ?

By the way have you read the book? I'm wondering about that because the character's name you mentioned is

And he wasn't strangled - he was apparently poisoned. You're certain you read the book?

And I'm bemused about your feelings for teenage girls, feeling a bit frustrated are we? That explains your lack of empathy for poor Shae. You have my sympathy of course but I'd also suggest you see a counselor quick smart about it.

Oh, another thing you got wrong - Shae was 18. It was in the hyperlink - nevermind I'll post it here.

http://awoiaf.wester.../index.php/Shae

I find it funny you had that South Park reference... unlike Kenny however, I hope Joffrey doesn't come back.

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If teenager means someone who is not a grown-up yet, Shae doesn't qualify to be called a teenager. If she was older than 16, she was a grown-up by Westeros standards. And she was a professional whore before she met Tyrion. That sets her apart from Tysha who was a real teenager.

Which is not to say that Shae deserved to be strangled. But I believe Tyrion's reaction was human. He is not infallible, he was deeply hurt, he had reached his breaking point. I think it was a really dumb of Shae to call Tyrion "my Giant of Lannister" as if this was just one of their ordinary nightly meetings. Especially since she was obviously there for Tywin, not for Tyrion. She might have fared better if she had simply acknowledged what she did to him at the trial instead of trying to manipulate his feelings.

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Which is not to say that Shae deserved to be strangled. But I believe Tyrion's reaction was human. He is not infallible, he was deeply hurt, he had reached his breaking point. I think it was a really dumb of Shae to call Tyrion "my Giant of Lannister" as if this was just one of their ordinary nightly meetings. Especially since she was obviously there for Tywin, not for Tyrion. She might have fared better if she had simply acknowledged what she did to him at the trial instead of trying to manipulate his feelings.

Mayhaps she could have fared better if Tyrion had kept her safe elsewhere not in KL.

But what I found disturbing was the lack of reflection or remorse by Tyrion on his murder of Shae.

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I think there is a difference between Shae being an innocent and Shae not deserving to be strangled. I'm confused about the notion that she used him - he showered her with jewels, and he notes she is a child and he treats her like one. He even says she helps him between the sheets - as in he put the breaks on their relationship becoming more.

Did she love him? I doubt it. Did she see him as a protector, someone who could care for her and raise her up in life? Almost definitely. But notice all the other marriages and how few were for love. Even Catelyn and Ned wasn't for love.

The implication that she used him is that she feigned interest...but that is the very purpose of having a prostitute, the very thing he was (not at the end) paying her for.

Did Tyrion do something very human - yes. But that doesn't make it right. I'm sure many of us have been screwed over in a relationship, been used completely or partially, doesn't mean we have the right to take someone's life.

What I think is masterful is how Martin sets it up so that the very thing that marks Tyrion the deepest - Tysha - is what makes him so generous to Sansa and so dismissive of Shae.

Tyrion can't distinguish sex and love, nor has he ever had a real relationship. Note he is risking Shae's life to bring her to King's Landing and into the castle, and she is warned about this around the same time he dismisses her offer of help. He puts her down, and makes her feel like she is only his whore.

Then he stops paying her, but makes vague promises about things he'll give her after Stannis leaves, or after this or that event.

Cersei gave Shae a better offer, she went with it. Now, I do think it is also important to note that Shae was trying to kill Tyrion, and rereading that I don't think she was coerced overly much but it does stand to reason it is possible.

ETA: As for trying to manipulate his feelings - he had a crossbow in his hands and she is completely vulnerable. She fell back to the tactic that she's been mentally conditioned - through sexual abuse - to utilize. (also, again, NOT saying everyone who is abused will act like Shae)

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Oh, another thing you got wrong - Shae was 18. It was in the hyperlink - nevermind I'll post it here.

http://awoiaf.wester.../index.php/Shae

Why does her age matter?

Dany is what... 13 when she is married and.. deflowered. Robb is around 16 or 17 when he has a sword plunged through his heart. Joffrey is around the same age when he is killed.

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Why are you "so exited"?

You did speak about yourself in plural, didn't you?

By the way have you read the book? I'm wondering about that because the character's name you mentioned is Joffrey - not "Jeofry" or "Jeoffry". And he wasn't strangled - he was apparently poisoned. You're certain you read the book?

No. I didn't read the book. I listened to it. Joffrey was "chocked" by poison, which I think was called "strangler", I think?

Oh, another thing you got wrong - Shae was 18. It was in the hyperlink - nevermind I'll post it here.

Looky looky at your link. Shae was 18 in AGOT. But she was killed in ASOS... after a year or even more. Are you certain you have read the book?

That explains your lack of empathy for poor Shae

But I do like Sansa and Dany...so is there a cure for me doctor?

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But I do like Sansa and Dany...so is there a cure for me doctor?

I'm not sure. People who desire very young teenage females and who also think that murdering prostitutes are acceptable forms of human behavior are a bit queer. You might, however, be able to improve on your comprehension and spelling skills. I hope you're really "exited" to know that :D

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Why does her age matter?

Dany is what... 13 when she is married and.. deflowered. Robb is around 16 or 17 when he has a sword plunged through his heart. Joffrey is around the same age when he is killed.

I mentioned she was a teenager but Arland said she was older.

I'm also more willing to overlook the mistakes of a younger person as opposed to an older adult who should know better having more experience in life. So I'd judge Catelyn's actions more harshly for example than that of her children.

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Why does her age matter?

Dunno. My guess is, that when you call her a teenager, it tends humanize her. Those who justify murder prefer to DE-humanize the victim. So they will throw incredible fits of fury if you call her a teenager, even though she obviously is one.

Dany is what... 13 when she is married and.. deflowered.

Yup. 13 = TEEN. Absolutely.

Robb is around 16 or 17 when he has a sword plunged through his heart.

16 = TEEN; 17 = TEEN. Absolutely. You can tell by the fact that the numbers, if you spell them out, end in TEEN.

Joffrey is around the same age when he is killed.

13 = TEEN. Yes, indeed!

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Actually she was near 20 by the time (she looked near 18 in AGOT), but let's not spoil it.

They were together for about a year. She was "no more than 18 by the look of her" when they met. So, decide what that means, and then add a year.

It was definitely not as much as two years. For instance: Dany turned 14 some months before Tyrion and Shae met. Dany is still 15 some months after Tyrion kills Shae.

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