Sandor Clegane v. 14

[Lemon Cake]

If Randa found out that Littlefinger was treating her the way he did, do you think there's any way the Vale Lords might act in a way to protect her? I sure hope so.

I think Bronze Yohn probably would, though it would mostly be an excuse to do something that would publicly shame Littlefinger, rather than out of any concern for Sansa's welfare.

I'd like to think Lady Waynwood would want to do something too, simply because she seems like the (grand)motherly type who would be upset by a young girl being treated that way. But I don't know enough about her to say for sure.

[Yvonesan]

Regarding the question of compassion and mercy... Since we don't know much about Sandor's childhood except for how his brother treated him, then I can only assume that these are traits that are inherent in the man. Well hidden normally but there all the same. I do think his brother's vicious nature has influenced him in two major ways, the second of which must have actually helped to teach him about humanity... firstly, he learned that he can kill when he has to and not give it a second thought and secondly, he learned what it feels like to be the victim of downright heartless cruelty firsthand. He can't deal with the latter too well (understandably) so he naturally threw himself into a job that deals with the former because it's something he knows how to do well since he grew up with it and it means that he can survive without falling to pieces himself. He is one majorly messed up person but there's hope for him because he does still care. Saving Arya from certain death (when she had been almost nothing but a pain in the ass for him), saving Sansa from the mob and refusing to partake in Joff's callous bullying are some of the most prominent examples coming to mind as evidence that he cares. If he didn't, he'd never have bothered otherwise.

I really do hope that he's been living on the QI and finding some peace because he desperately needed it and especially if he's going to survive in the long run, whether it's to get rid of his UnBrother and that evil and/or to find happiness and a place in life with someone like Sansa. Might be jumping the gun way too much there but GRRM has been tough with many of his characters. I'd love for one of his characters who has had it tough all alongto be alive, well and happy by the end of this story. I know... maybe I should stick with fairytales but for now I'll hold out some hope that Martin's world will thrive with the happy range of human emotions eventually.

[littlespider]

Sandor was a complete loose cannon in King's Landing, less so in SoS. Littlefinger is manipulative, cold, and calculating. I don't think we'll ever see Littlefinger lose control. That's too comic book villain. Sansa is going to have to deal with Littlefinger on his own terms. She's got to out-manipulate him if she's going to survive.

Actually, I even think that some of Sandor's anger is healthy.

:shocked:

How so?

[clover]

Great points.

And Sandor has his faults but I am actually more worried about LF than I even was with Joff. He is so tightly wound and puts on the facade of trying to convince people he is together and polished and he isn't and that is scary.

And Martin has been tough on the characters. Very few people are whole; they have been so damaged and traumatized, internally and physically.

ANd I noticed too that not many people are reproducing, yet a lot are being killed off. LOL!

Really, the only steady procreator was good ol' Robert. Er, with the ones we even know about.

[headtrip_honey]

Great points.

And Sandor has his faults but I am actually more worried about LF than I even was with Joff. He is so tightly wound and puts on the facade of trying to convince people he is together and polished and he isn't and that is scary.

And Martin has been tough on the characters. Very few people are whole; they have been so damaged and traumatized, internally and physically.

ANd I noticed too that not many people are reproducing, yet a lot are being killed off. LOL!

Really, the only steady procreator was good ol' Robert. Er, with the ones we even know about.

I dunno, Ned and Cat managed to pop out five healthy ones.

[Candor]

I don't see LF losing control so much as overstretching himself. I think he's trying to juggle too many things, and something's going to give.

That's politically. As far as Sansa is concerned I think that's different. I think he is having his fairy tale there. He probably pretends Sansa is okay with his ~affections, but the danger comes in if he ever convinces himself that's true.

[Candor]

I dunno, Ned and Cat managed to pop out five healthy ones.

And Edmure's wife has a little troutling in her belly. :lol:

[clover]

Only compared to LF... it is healthy. LOL!

I think it is better to bluster and get it out than to bottle it in.

And I believe through his acts that they demonstrate some caring and consideration.

LF has none.

He lives for something that never existed and is spiteful and vengeful. He thinks Cat was for him and no one else yet he helped ruin her and her family.

He is dangerous and psychotic.

ANd then what he does to Lysa ( not that I like her) and Sansa.

Sandor is a saint compared to him. He is certifiable. Totally insane.

[headtrip_honey]

Only compared to LF... it is healthy. LOL!

I think it is better to bluster and get it out than to bottle it in.

And I believe through his acts that they demonstrate some caring and consideration.

LF has none.

He lives for something that never existed and is spiteful and vengeful. He thinks Cat was for him and no one else yet he helped ruin her and her family.

He is dangerous and psychotic.

ANd then what he does to Lysa ( not that I like her) and Sansa.

Sandor is a saint compared to him. He is certifiable. Totally insande.

This reminds me of a quote I once heard comparing a woman's anger (cold) to a man's anger (hot)...I wish I could remember the exact quote because I can't remember exactly what the point was.

But this reminds me of it.

Littlefinger has cold anger. And I think it's more dangerous than hot.

ETA: Found it! It's from Gregory Maguire's Wicked:

"Tribal mothers always tell their children that there are two kinds of anger: hot and cold. Boys and girl experience both, but as they grow up the angers separate according to the sex. Boy need hot anger to survive. They need the inclination to fight, the drive to sink the knife into the flesh, the energy and initiative of fury. It' a requirement of hunting, of defence, of pride. Maybe sex too."

"And girls need cold anger. They need the cold simmer, the ceaseless grudge, the talent to avoid forgiveness, the sidestepping of compromise. They need to know when they say something that they will never back down, ever ever. It's the compensation for a more limited scope in the world. Cross a man and you struggle, one of you wins, you adjust, you go on - or you lie there dead. Cross a woman and the universe is changed, once again, for cold anger requires an eternal vigilance in all the matters of slight and offense"

Not trying to call LF a girl, clearly. But I like the descriptions of the different angers, and it seems to fit Sandor/LF pretty well.

[clover]

Ned and Cat had theirs before the series really got rolling.

Sometimes it just seems like the Old Guard keeps getting wiped out and the families are getting smaller because of it.

The only wedding was Robb's and er, we know what happened there. No future.

[Candor]

It is to be expected though. Country's at war. Most of the studs are dead or fighting away from their wives. The smallfolk are starving. Winter is coming. Not exactly cohesive to the sexeh tiems and the babymaking.

[clover]

Yeah.

They say women stew, steam, smolder, and hold grudges and guys tend to not do that and it is healthier.

Though I'm sure that can't be said for everyone, but I have noticed it can be true at times.

Actually, I don't have it in front of me but Ava Gardner said something to that effect when discussing her and Sinatra's relationship.

That her temper could flare for hours and she held it in, and her point was that it wasn't good and she realized it.

[headtrip_honey]

Yeah.

They say women stew, steam, smolder, and hold grudges and guys tend to not do that and it is healthier.

Though I'm sure that can't be said for everyone, but I have noticed it can be true at times.

Actually, I don't have it in front of me but Ava Gardner said something to that effect when discussing her and Sinatra's relationship.

That her temper could flare for hours and she held it in, and her point was that it wasn't good and she realized it.

I think it's more conditioning than anything - girls are taught from a young age not to act out, not to be aggressive. Give a girl the same leeway as a boy when they're growing up and she may express more "hot" anger.

[clover]

I was just thinking of the toll and the effects.

So many dying, what the effects would be on all of the Houses in the future and their leadership.

Which really is a struggle and concern in each book too.

How all of them get out of this mess is what makes them the books so intriguing, because the mess gets deeper in each book, for some people and families more than others.

[clover]

I think the "hot" is easier to read.

The more self-contained, close to the vest people are the ones to watch.

I swear I am more fearful of Varys than the Hound.

LF and Varys frightened me all the way from the beginning.

At least the Hound can have a flagon :cool4: and call it a day.

[clover]

Actually, the Hound can yell out empty threats all he wants.

The cold in the pit of my stomach came when LF told Ned to his face he was screwing him over and still got away with it.

That is scary.

[Lemon Cake]

Actually, the Hound can yell out empty threats all he wants.

While I'm obviously glad that he doesn't usually follow through on his threats of physical violence, it's still really not cool that he makes them in the first place. Especially not when those threats are being directed at little girls. That's the kind of shitty behavior that really needs to stop with him. Here's hoping that's one of several things the Elder Brother is setting his ass straight about.

He can keep the swearing, though. YOU CAN ALWAYS KEEP THE SWEARING, SANDOR.

[clover]

And there are things he has said and done that I sort of rate on a mental scale.

That was cold.

That was so wrong.

What the hell are you thinking.

Not so bad.

Etc.

I am still scratching my head over their scenes in the book.

The only one I'm cool with is the ripping the heart out one.

I really believe he meant in "Sandor Speak" "She just broke

my

heart." And it is him verbally lashing out.

I doubt he wanted to perform any heart surgery or literally cut it out.

He, er, tends to slice off arms with his sword, er, not hearts.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

No fun at all.

So Randa exacts the "pillow-price" or whatever it's called (btw -- semi-weird-homo-erotic-ladies-sharing bed together, anybody? Or maybe I was just traumatized by the Myrish Swamp.) So Sansa is going to have to tell her all the wicked things she's done or all the wicked things she wants to do.

So Sansa: "Um, this blonde boy kissed me. But later he turned out to be a dick."

Randa: "yawn, uh huh."

Sansa: "Then this drunk fool kissed me."

RAnda: "you know how to pick 'em gurl"

Sansa: "then this drunk, scarred hottie kissed me. It was like, kind of cool. But also kind of scary. Oh, and he had puke all over him. And blood."

Randa: "Wut?! wait here-"

Sansa: "Then I had to look at a dwarf's cock. it was gross."

So anyway, Randa will pry it all out of her. And Randa totally knows who Alayne is. But she'll probably side-eye Sansa's taste in men.

I really want to see this scene.

But really, here's the kicker. Sansa's going to hear about the raid on Saltpans soon. What's she going to think?

And if Brienne ever finds her, Sansa will hear that he's dead. I think that will be a pretty sad thing to read about, her POV when she hears it.

I suspect she won't believe its him. It just clashes too much her perception of her.

Then again, she's been let down so many times, she might.

:ack: It's a sad state of affairs when you think that probably the best real kiss Sansa's ever had was from Littlefinger. *cries forever for her*

In light of that, it becomes slightly less surprising that she's romanticized the unKiss with Sandor so much.

Reality is nothing more than perception. Objectivity is at best shared perception. Therefore, Sansa did kiss Sandor as she believes she did.

Before anyone argues, do you really want to choose between Joffery and Littlefinger (and Tyrion?) as Sansa's best romantic moment?

[Candor]

Before anyone argues, do you really want to choose between Joffery and Littlefinger (and Tyrion?) as Sansa's best romantic moment?

And yet I doubt Sansa would perceive or classify her interactions with Turd, Petyr, & Tyrion as "romantic", so they are out of the running. :)