The "Dragon Rider" [aDwD Spoilers]

[ipsuel]

To the OP:

I don't really have much to add except this: I like your theory. I was one of those people complaining about Q's storyline (and the wasted pages because I felt like, if GRRM's point was to get Dorne pissed at Dany--he could have gone about it more quickly and efficiently. And in no way did I see Dany to blame for Q's death anyway (and as such, thought Doran was logical enough to see that Quentyn did it to himself, so he, too would not blame Dany).

So... to me, the Q arc was just a waste of pages/my time.

However, your theory gives me a new take on it. Am I behind it 100%? Nope, not yet. But you better believe on my next re-read, I am going to be looking at that whole story line from a different angle.

And that is actually what I love most about this series... the nooks and crannies that I get to go back and re-investigate.

I kinda hope you're right for a whole host of reasons (for instance --> I think the story would benefit dramatically and it would explain why we've been subjected to so much Quentyn [a tiff between Dany and Dorne just doesn't cut it imo])... so I know where my next re-read will begin!

Thanks for the food for thought :)

[Fire_Kiss]

I love your theory, and WANT to believe.

buut....

If Tatters was wearing a Brazen Beast mask, wouldn't the mask have melted to his face a la Viserys?

[Silent_Hero]

Quentin the Frog is dead. As sad as it is his death has a meaning, Dorne has a new enemy to go after.

[Fearsome Fred]

I love your theory, and WANT to believe.

buut....

If Tatters was wearing a Brazen Beast mask, wouldn't the mask have melted to his face a la Viserys?

I think not.

I am pretty sure that, any flame hot enough to melt bronze would kill the victim very quickly, if not instantly. He would not take 3 days to die.

The crossbowman whose mask melted practically had his head in Viserion's mouth IIRC. The exposure that killed the "Dying Prince" need not have been so close or so direct.

Also, Quentyn was wearing a bronze mask too. It is possible he was no longer wearing it at the moment he was incinerated by Rhaegal's "furnace wind", but there is (IIRC) no mention of him removing it. But if we can imagine Quentyn may have removed his mask at some point prior to being incinerated, we can imagine the same for Tatters.

[Fire_Kiss]

I think not.

I am pretty sure that, any flame hot enough to melt bronze would kill the victim very quickly, if not instantly. He would not take 3 days to die.

The crossbowman whose mask melted practically had his head in Viserion's mouth IIRC. The exposure that killed the "Dying Prince" need not have been so close or so direct.

Also, Quentyn was wearing a bronze mask too. It is possible he was no longer wearing it at the moment he was incinerated by Rhaegal's "furnace wind", but there is (IIRC) no mention of him removing it. But if we can imagine Quentyn may have removed his mask at some point prior to being incinerated, we can imagine the same for Tatters.

Yet we know from Barriston that his eyes were sockets of pus. This may be another thread for the epert on thermodynamics to put his .02 in, because I am no expert in fire, but if something was hot enough to melt his eyes, wouldnt his mask also burn?

And I dont know if Q took his mask off or not. Interesting counter point.

[Fearsome Fred]

Yet we know from Barriston that his eyes were sockets of pus. This may be another thread for the epert on thermodynamics to put his .02 in, because I am no expert in fire, but if something was hot enough to melt his eyes, wouldnt his mask also burn?

Eyes are mostly made of water. Sufficient heat to rapidly turn water into steam will cause the eyeballs to explode. Water boils at 212 degrees F. In contrast, Bronze melts at 1700-1800 degrees F. Temperatures sufficient to melt Bronze will also reduce even bones to ash, and of course, the eyeballs will be long gone by the time that happens.

Edit. However, all that is needed to turn the eyesockets to pools of pus is sufficient termperature to kill most of the living cells in the eye. Probably anything sufficient to heat the flesh of the eyeballs above body temperature will do the trick, and, after 3 days, pools of pus will be all thats left. For instance, skin startes to die if heated above 113 degrees F.

[7V3N]

Yet we know from Barriston that his eyes were sockets of pus. This may be another thread for the epert on thermodynamics to put his .02 in, because I am no expert in fire, but if something was hot enough to melt his eyes, wouldnt his mask also burn?

And I dont know if Q took his mask off or not. Interesting counter point.

I think you are looking too far into it. It is probably safe to say that dragon fire has different properties than regular fire.

[DragonCrass]

And that is actually what I love most about this series... the nooks and crannies that I get to go back and re-investigate.

On rereads I have also picked up on things that passed by on first glance and I can't help but form theories and try to pick up on the direction we are are heading

For me these books are great becuase just like real life anything can happen at any time. I know it is cliche to say about Martin that he is breaking traditional fantasy novel rules but I enjoy going into a chapter feeling that no theme or character is safe. Maybe Jon as we know him is dead? Maybe Q tried real hard to tame that dragon but he failed.

Some very well thought out arguements are made on this post. But to say that he can't be dead because a lot of narrative space was spent on Q's develpoment is a weak point.

[Fire_Kiss]

It is probably safe to say that dragon fire has different properties than regular fire.

Wait. What? How?!

Also, I just found out I have a copy of the e-books, and re-read that chapter. The Winblown with the tiger mask who gets his head bitten and then roasted is described with molten brass running down his body.

Nowhere does it say Q took his mask off, though the attack in front of the pit "nearly" tore it off.

From this I can be satisfied with the thought that perhaps the brass melted and ran onto his clothes, which burned/were cut off in the process of trying to heal him.

[7V3N]

Wait. What? How?!

Dragons are magical creatures. I don't think you can get a pyre burning and claim you have dragon fire. I have always thought that GRRM wanted dragon fire to be unique, and not like standard, ordinary fire.

[Fire_Kiss]

Dragons are magical creatures. I don't think you can get a pyre burning and claim you have dragon fire. I have always thought that GRRM wanted dragon fire to be unique, and not like standard, ordinary fire.

My point is it is STILL FIRE. It's hot, it burns things, and whether you get it from a pyre or a dragon's tummy, you still have the same essential thing; fire.

[Ser Kevan of Stone Hedge]

Only partially way through the OP I was pretty sure I wasn't going to be sold on this one, and I'm still not. Very interesting, though. There are quite a few little things that one would figure must hint towards something. I wouldn't be surprised if many of your points (strange behavior of the other Dornishmen, etc...) end up being part of a bigger picture unrelated to Quentyn still being alive. We shall see!

[protar]

I really don't buy this theory for reasons already stated in this thread and the other one, so I see no need to reiterate most of them. I will say though that from a meta-perspective it's a bad theory because we've already got so many switched personalities and people coming back from the dead/ turning out to have been dead. Off the top of my head we've got:

.Beric

.Catelyn

.Bran

.Rickon

.Brienne

.Davos

.Aegon (If he's real.)

.Jon con

.Mance

. Probably Sandor

.Probably Jon in TWOW

Not to mention all the cliffhanger chapters like Arya at the RW. This seems like an awful lot to me for a series renowned for killing off it's characters without mercy. Must we add Quentyn to the list? Will Ned Stark return as a skeletal champion? Mayhaps Rhaegar Targaryen will turn out to be alive and raise an army of dead heroes on dragon stone? Or will Drogo ride down from the sky with a Khalasar of stars? It's time Martin got back to doing what he does best: killing his characters and killing them dead.

Also from what else I've seen of your posts FearsomeFred, it seems odd that you'd want Quentyn as one of the heads of the dragon. Aren't you the one advocating the refocusing of the story on the original POV characters? Yet somehow you want a minor character introduced only in the last book to become one of the most important characters in the series.

For me, Quentyn's purpose was simple: To turn the Dornish against Dany, to highlight what a bad ruler Dany is, and to free the dragons. That's a hell of a lot more than most characters have done. I mean hell, even Arya has had less of an effect on the main plot so far. Isn't that enough?

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

I think Quentyn is out... burned, dead, and not overly bright.

As for the other dragon riders, might I direct everyone to Part, the Third of GRRM's TIFF interview where he reads the first Victarion chapter from TWoW. He seems to have formulated quite the dragon-binding plan. I pray this is not the chapter to be released with the paperback, but it probably is...

[Uncat]

I have read this flaming thread and found that I, too, can't hold my fire ;)

You seem to know, what Dannys destiny is with in the book. Pray, pleas share your knowledge for I am not even sure, on which side she will end up and if she even makes her way to Westeros. Hell, I am not even sure where the real conflict lines run. There is a way to read this books that might put the Starks on the oposing side or even dividem them up and which takes Danny to be - knowingly or not - a harbringer of doom.

Are you realy sure, that the right. interpretation of the three heads thing is that there will be three riders riding the dragons into a battle to save Westeros? Don't collect your riders to early. From all we know up to now, it could still mean anything up to "...and three heads you will need to chop of, to really get rid of those beasts." We just don't know.

As others have stated here before me, Quentins mission, his inability to fulfill it and his vain attempt to steal the dragons will be of huge importance for the the positioning of Dorne e.g. in relation to Young Griffs cause. And it might have served to show, that having some drops of Targerian blood does mean nothing. The attitude you have towards the beast is what counts.

And finally: Yes, there is a slight difference between dragon fire and ordinary fire. It is the hotter than any other fire and fit to forge a high quality steel (ETA: which puts it at some 3000 degrees Celsius. So if Quent indeed cought a sniff of it and was burning from, say, neck down, there is not a snowballs chance in dragonfire that he will survive this burns. We are talking about third degred burns on over sixty ore seventy percent of his body. This will kill.

We have seen a lot of people comming back. But this one is as dead as it gets. His job was to mess things up and that he did pretty well. R.I.P. my little Frog, R.I.P.

Edit: Typos. Darn iPhone

[Fearsome Fred]

I will say though that from a meta-perspective it's a bad theory because we've already got so many switched personalities and people coming back from the dead/ turning out to have been dead.

Sorry, but that does not convince on any level. Not only is bad art a notoriously hazy matter of opinion, but, even if we assume your artistic judgments are correct, you cannot prove that bad art is not exactly what GRRM is planning. It is not illogical to suspect that GRRM may indeed be up to his same old tricks.

Personally, I am far more bored of explicit sex scenes than I am of fake deaths, and I consider them far less artistically justifiable. But I would still bet money that GRRM will keep on writing them. Sure, I think that if he stopped, the result would be better art, but so what?

Off the top of my head we've got:

.Beric

.Catelyn

.Bran

.Rickon

.Brienne

.Davos

.Aegon (If he's real.)

.Jon con

.Mance

.Probably Sandor

.Probably Jon in TWOW

Not to mention all the cliffhanger chapters like Arya at the RW.

You left out Waymar Royce, Gregor Clegane and Patchface, among others. Which brings me to my next point. You seem to be confusing two different phenomenon: (1) people returning as quasi-zombies; and (2) supposedly dead people turning out to be truly and fully alive.

The zombie-plague/ghost-grass theme (wights, drowned men, and rh'llor zombies) is not a phenomenon I expect to go away, whether you like it or not. That you personally dislike this theme is not, to my mind, evidence that it will not be an ongoing part of the story.

So, if we focus only on characters who have truly returned to Life, as distinct from Un-Life, we must cross out UnCat, Beric and (I am convinced) Brienne as well.

The Davos incident may be a by-product of the feast/dance split (which is problematic from an artistic perspective no matter how you look at it). Were it not for the split we would have likely found out Davos was alive before Cersei heard reports of his death. I cannot count Young Griff, because I think he is a fake. I cannot count Jon because his fate is undetermined (nobody is convinced he's dead, and he may actually be dead). I cannot county Arya because (for me) the axe incident was too obviously not her death, and also because the reader knows the rumors of her death to be false. I cannot count Sandor both because his survival is unconfirmed, and also because the only reason he is suspected of being alive is because the evidence of his death is so unconvincing and full of holes. I cannot count Jon Con at all. That leaves:

(1) The Bran&Rickon fake death incident (which is really a single incident).

(2) Mance

Which to my mind is a very flimsy basis for assuming there will be no more "fake deaths".

Also from what else I've seen of your posts FearsomeFred, it seems odd that you'd want Quentyn as one of the heads of the dragon. Aren't you the one advocating the refocusing of the story on the original POV characters?

I have not advocated Quentyn continuing as a POV character. Nothing in my theory requires that Quentyn ever receive another POV chapter.

Anyway, my theory tries to explain why GRRM has spent so much time on Quentyn. Whether I feel he OUGHT to have wasted so much time on such a minor POV character AT ALL is rather beside the point.

Yet somehow you want a minor character introduced only in the last book to become one of the most important characters in the series.

I want him to serve as a device to get Viserion to Westeros. I hardly care what happens to him thereafter. And if he is not serving that purpose, I would like him to serve SOME purpose, and I would like that purpose to become clear eventually. Because if GRRM has really just been writing filler for the last 2 volumes, then the series is doomed (which may well be the case).

For me, Quentyn's purpose was simple: To turn the Dornish against Dany, to highlight what a bad ruler Dany is, and to free the dragons. That's a hell of a lot more than most characters have done. I mean hell, even Arya has had less of an effect on the main plot so far. Isn't that enough?

Not if we expect the story ever to see any kind of reasonable completion.

[Fearsome Fred]

You seem to know, what Dannys destiny is with in the book.

You seem to be making things up.

Pray, pleas share your knowledge for I am not even sure, on which side she will end up and if she even makes her way to Westeros.

I expressed no opinion about "which side" Dany will end up on. As for her never getting to Westeros, that is perfectly possible, if only because it is perfectly possible that aDwD is the last book; and also because it is perfectly possible that future books, if any, will also fail to progress the plot. But if GRRM never meant Dany OR her Dragons to reach Westeros, then her story has been one of the biggest fake-outs in the history of fiction. Especially since he has said in past interviews that she will reach Westeros - and not at the very end of the story either (closer to the middle).

Are you realy sure, that the right. interpretation of the three heads thing is that there will be three riders riding the dragons into a battle to save Westeros?

I said nothing about "saving Westeros".

Don't collect your riders to early.

Must we wait til book 9?

And it might have served to show, that having some drops of Targerian blood does mean nothing.

Did not Viserys already establish that?

And finally: Yes, there is a slight difference between dragon fire and ordinary fire. It is the hotter than any other fire and fit to forge a high quality steel (ETA: which puts it at some 3000 degrees Celsius. So if Quent indeed cought a sniff of it and was burning from, say, neck down, there is not a snowballs chance in dragonfire that he will survive this burns. We are talking about third degred burns on over sixty ore seventy percent of his body. This will kill.

And yet, Dany is not dead. The mere fact that a dragon breathes in someone's general direction, with some resulting pain and injury, can hardly be taken as proof of death.

[Patchface12]

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east"

That was Maegi Maz Duur's prophecy for when Drogo would rise again. If it can still come true, I assume this means he will be reincarnated. Quentyn's story was not pointless, tho it did seem that way at first.

[SerBlackfyre]

"Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind.

Rhaegal, he reminded himself, the green one is Rhaegal.

When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand aswell. All of him, all of him was burning.

Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream."

:thumbsdown:

[Uncat]

The guy was on fire. We know it because we see it through his eyes. Danny was not on fire and the pyre incidend was a onetime thing, a looky conjunction that produces just the right magic.

And nowere in the books is it stated, the three dragons need three riders. This is just a thing, everybody inside and outside of the book assumes from the fact, that Aegon once concurred Westeros with three dragons ridden by three people. But if there are three riders, the Frog will not ride the dragon, because the frog dead well and thoroughly.