The "Dragon Rider" [aDwD Spoilers]

[Fearsome Fred]

The guy was on fire. We know it because we see it through his eyes. Danny was not on fire

Quentyn "was burning"; Dany "was burning". It is the exact same language in both cases: "was burning".

And nowere in the books is it stated, the three dragons need three riders. This is just a thing, everybody inside and outside of the book assumes

So you concede IS stated in the books. You just doubt the information.

[Fearsome Fred]

When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand aswell. All of him, all of him was burning.

Right. The implication here is that he sees himself burning. He does not necessarily feel it, at least not yet. This is similar to what happened to Dany ... she was seen burning.

Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream."

Right. A surreal reaction, as already noted. He has time to think "oh" before he reacts to heat and fire. Does he scream with pain, panic or a mixture of the two? It does not matter, because Dany also "was burning", and also presumably became aware of pain at some point. She also sustained burn injuries.

[protar]

Sorry, but that does not convince on any level. Not only is bad art a notoriously hazy matter of opinion, but, even if we assume your artistic judgments are correct, you cannot prove that bad art is not exactly what GRRM is planning. It is not illogical to suspect that GRRM may indeed be up to his same old tricks.

Personally, I am far more bored of explicit sex scenes than I am of fake deaths, and I consider them far less artistically justifiable. But I would still bet money that GRRM will keep on writing them. Sure, I think that if he stopped, the result would be better art, but so what?

You left out Waymar Royce, Gregor Clegane and Patchface, among others. Which brings me to my next point. You seem to be confusing two different phenomenon: (1) people returning as quasi-zombies; and (2) supposedly dead people turning out to be truly and fully alive.

The zombie-plague/ghost-grass theme (wights, drowned men, and rh'llor zombies) is not a phenomenon I expect to go away, whether you like it or not. That you personally dislike this theme is not, to my mind, evidence that it will not be an ongoing part of the story.

So, if we focus only on characters who have truly returned to Life, as distinct from Un-Life, we must cross out UnCat, Beric and (I am convinced) Brienne as well.

The Davos incident may be a by-product of the feast/dance split (which is problematic from an artistic perspective no matter how you look at it). Were it not for the split we would have likely found out Davos was alive before Cersei heard reports of his death. I cannot count Young Griff, because I think he is a fake. I cannot count Jon because his fate is undetermined (nobody is convinced he's dead, and he may actually be dead). I cannot county Arya because (for me) the axe incident was too obviously not her death, and also because the reader knows the rumors of her death to be false. I cannot count Sandor both because his survival is unconfirmed, and also because the only reason he is suspected of being alive is because the evidence of his death is so unconvincing and full of holes. I cannot count Jon Con at all. That leaves:

(1) The Bran&Rickon fake death incident (which is really a single incident).

(2) Mance

Which to my mind is a very flimsy basis for assuming there will be no more "fake deaths".

I have not advocated Quentyn continuing as a POV character. Nothing in my theory requires that Quentyn ever receive another POV chapter.

Anyway, my theory tries to explain why GRRM has spent so much time on Quentyn. Whether I feel he OUGHT to have wasted so much time on such a minor POV character AT ALL is rather beside the point.

I want him to serve as a device to get Viserion to Westeros. I hardly care what happens to him thereafter. And if he is not serving that purpose, I would like him to serve SOME purpose, and I would like that purpose to become clear eventually. Because if GRRM has really just been writing filler for the last 2 volumes, then the series is doomed (which may well be the case).

Not if we expect the story ever to see any kind of reasonable completion.

Look, Martin's stories have a lot of people returning from the dead/preteding not to be dead. Whittling down the list for arbritary reasons does not change that. Sure I expect the wights to remain a major part of the story, and we'll probably get more fake-out deaths. Jon will probably become a fire-wight. But just because something has a place in the narrative it doesn't mean it can't be over-used. And even if Martin had never pulled the fake death trick before, Quentyn turning out to be alive would still be a ridiculous, contrivance with no proper evidence to back it up imo.

About Quentyn being a POV or not I guess I just assumed that as he's already a POV, if he became a dragon rider you'd want to keep him as a POV. My bad. I'm not totally unreasonable you see. POV or no though, having him as a dragon rider would still be giving a minor character an incredibly large role. Not saying it's a bad thing but it just doesn't seem to fit with what I've seen of you.

In respects to your third point, why is Quentyn neccessary to get Viserion to Westeros? I mean it's not like we've got a magic horn that binds dragons to one's will is it? Oh wait, it completely is. Why would we need Quentyn, when we already have Victarion and his horn?

And your last point about the story never being finished I really don't understand. Care to elaborate?

[Fearsome Fred]

Protar wrote:

Look, Martin's stories have a lot of people returning from the dead/preteding not to be dead. Whittling down the list for arbritary reasons does not change that.

Fine with me. You were the one trying to place an arbitrary limit on the list, as though adding one more would cross some invisible line.

POV or no though, having him as a dragon rider would still be giving a minor character an incredibly large role.

A large role militarily? Probably yes. A large role storywise? A dragon-rider who is only one of 3 need not have an "incredibly large" role at all. If there are 3 (or more?) dragon-riders, then it is hardly necessary that all of them be central characters. And GRRM has already warned us that dragons had serial riders, so it is possible that some riders will die and be replaced before the series is over.

In respects to your third point, why is Quentyn neccessary to get Viserion to Westeros?

He isn't. GRRM could have gotten Viserion to Westeros any number of ways. But that only begs the question of why GRRM has not focussed on doing just that, or otherwise advancing the plot, instead of wasting time with Quentyn ... unless he has chosen Quentyn as his means of getting Viserion to Westeros.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

The odd thing about this thread is that it certainly seems as if GRRM has spent a fair amount of time setting an alternate method of getting Viserion and Rhaegal under control and back to Westeros, namely, the Valyrian dragon horn that Victarion and Euron care so much about. So if it is indeed the case that Quentyn is dead and his mission a failure, then we'd still have a plausible scenario for how the dragons get back to Westeros: Victarion (or Euron) uses the horn to bind at least Viserion and Rhaegal, and with that as leverage, forces an alliance with Dany upon her return back to Meereen.

Also, your rationale for why Quentyn's allies lie about his death strikes me as awfully shaky:

Dany has gone missing. King Hizdahr wants the dragons killed. Barristan has just warned Quentyn that King H wants Quentyn killed as well. Probably, if there were any inkling of the fact that Quentyn was making progress in controlling a dragon, killing Quentyn and the dragon would assume top priority for the King H and his allies.

Dany's enemies don't mind dragons out of control running amok and causing problems for Dany. But they would be terrified of dragons under her control and usable as weapons.

Dragons are terrifying and massive threats to large collections of people grouped together in small areas (like, for example, armies gathered for warfare) whether they are under control or not. Even if the Yunkish believe that Rhaegal and Viserion may also roast Dany's forces alive, that's no reason not to attack the dragons on sight no matter what. And indeed, that seems to be the policy of the Yunkish army when it was only Drogon on the loose and many people thought that Dany was dead.

So I don't see why that would keep the Dornishmen quiet. If anything, the ability to control even one dragon (via Quentyn) would confer upon them a huge amount of leverage, and could only benefit Dany's people.

ETA: Actually, this is the stated policy of the Yunkish "council of masters" following Drogon's dramatic appearance at the fighting pits:

Reznak mo Reznak cleared his throat noisily. "Meaning no offense, yet it seems to me that Her Worship Queen Daenerys gave you ... ah ... seven hostages. The other three..."

"The others shall remain our guests," announced the Yunkish lord in the breastplate, "until the dragons have been destroyed"

A hush fell across the hall. Then came the murmurs and the mutters, whispered curses, whispered prayers, the hornets stirring in their hive. "The dragons..." said King Hizdahr.

"...are monsters, as all men saw in Daznak's Pit. No true peace is possible whilst they live."

That's page 789. Please note that Prince Quentyn and his retinue were present for this exchange, and thus aware of the Yunkish view of the matter.

[Fearsome Fred]

The odd thing about this thread is that it certainly seems as if GRRM has spent a fair amount of time setting an alternate method of getting Viserion and Rhaegal under control and back to Westeros, namely, the Valyrian dragon horn that Victarion and Euron care so much about.

My theory does not argue that Quentyn is the only way the Viserion can be controlled. The argument from plot efficiency focusses on two points: (1) if the theory is correct, then GRRM has less that needs to be accomplished in future chapters, as only Rhaegal now remains uncontrolled; and (2) my theory helps explain why GRRM has spent so much time developing Q's subplot.

My theory does not try to explain the purpose of the Victarion subplot, or the Valyrian horn. But I can hardly see it as a problem for my theory. After all, one dragon remains uncontrolled, and GRRM has already warned us, through Dany, that we should not expect any individual to control more than 1 dragon.

So if it is indeed the case that Quentyn is dead and his mission a failure, then we'd still have a plausible scenario for how the dragons get back to Westeros: Victarion (or Euron) uses the horn to bind at least Viserion and Rhaegal, and with that as leverage, forces an alliance with Dany upon her return back to Meereen.

I can hardly see that your ideas favor plot efficiency. If I were to hazard a guess, I would guess Victarion will die horribly, after delivering an entire fleet to Dany; and the dragon horn will ultimately serve as a device for binding Tyrion to Rhaegal. That is only a guess, but it is at least the sort of thing that would refocus the story on the central characters.

You have given me absolutely no reason to believe that a forced alliance between Dany and Victarion gets the story any closer to an ultimate conclusion. Seems to me more like an obstacle and a bump in the road. It only further begs the question of why GRRM is bothering with the whole Victarion subplot.

Also, your rationale for why Quentyn's allies lie about his death strikes me as awfully shaky:

Dragons are terrifying and massive threats to large collections of people grouped together in small areas (like, for example, armies gathered for warfare) whether they are under control or not. Even if the Yunkish believe that Rhaegal and Viserion may also roast Dany's forces alive, that's no reason not to attack the dragons on sight no matter what.

Did you even read what I wrote? I never said that Dany's enemies don't want the dragons dead. I merely said that killing Quentyn (or the dragons), would assume top priority, if it were known Quentyn were making progress controlling the dragons.

And of course, Q's enemies are not limited to the Yunkish. King H (Dany's own husband) was among them. And there is reason to believe he wants the dragons dead.

So I don't see why that would keep the Dornishmen quiet. If anything, the ability to control even one dragon (via Quentyn) would confer upon them a huge amount of leverage, [...]

Only when the goal is achieved. Until he masters his dragon, he is vulnerable.

[...] and could only benefit Dany's people.

There are differences of opinion about that. Otherwise, Dany and her dragon would not have so many enemies.

Nor are they necessarily wrong. Remember, "Dragons plant no trees". In any event, whether Dany's enemies are wise or not, it is perfectly clear that Dany and her dragons have many enemies WITHIN the city. King H wanted both the dragons AND Quentyn dead.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

My theory does not try to explain the purpose of the Victarion subplot, or the Valyrian horn. But I can hardly see it as a problem for my theory. After all, one dragon remains uncontrolled, and GRRM has already warned us, through Dany, that we should not expect any individual to control more than 1 dragon.

Dany was speaking in ignorance of the dragon horn, about people who do not seem to have used a dragon horn in order to tame their dragons. Those who are familiar with the horn, like Moqorro and Euron, seem to believe that it would work on multiple dragons.

You have given me absolutely no reason to believe that a forced alliance between Dany and Victarion gets the story any closer to an ultimate conclusion. Seems to me more like an obstacle and a bump in the road. It only further begs the question of why GRRM is bothering with the whole Victarion subplot.

I thought the purpose of Quentyn becoming a dragonrider was to control it and deliver it to Westeros. A forced alliance with Victarion, powered by an effective dragon-horn, would serve the same purpose.

Did you even read what I wrote? I never said that Dany's enemies don't want the dragons dead. I merely said that killing Quentyn (or the dragons), would assume top priority, if it were known Quentyn were making progress controlling the dragons.

I don't see how that changes things. At the moment, the Yunkish will kill the dragons on sight. Should they discover that Quentyn is making progress controlling a dragon, they will kill the dragons on sight. At bottom, it comes down to not wanting to be burned alive, and that applies to the Yunkish, to Hizdahr, and to the sons of the harpy regardless of whether they think the dragons are under anybody' control.

[protar]

Protar wrote:

Fine with me. You were the one trying to place an arbitrary limit on the list, as though adding one more would cross some invisible line.

A large role militarily? Probably yes. A large role storywise? A dragon-rider who is only one of 3 need not have an "incredibly large" role at all. If there are 3 (or more?) dragon-riders, then it is hardly necessary that all of them be central characters. And GRRM has already warned us that dragons had serial riders, so it is possible that some riders will die and be replaced before the series is over.

He isn't. GRRM could have gotten Viserion to Westeros any number of ways. But that only begs the question of why GRRM has not focussed on doing just that, or otherwise advancing the plot, instead of wasting time with Quentyn ... unless he has chosen Quentyn as his means of getting Viserion to Westeros.

Look, regardless of whether your theory or not is correct, you still have to accept that there are other reasons Martin might have focused on Quentyn aside from making him a dragon rider. e.g Quentyn is the one who released the dragons, so that they could reach Victarion and his horn faster. Without him it'd be a lot longer before he or anyone else got their dragons.

Also his death will be the last straw pushing the Dornish to side with Aegon against Dany. Contrary to what you beleive this will not somehow prevent the books from ever reaching it's conclusion. In fact it could speed up the plot as having Dorne as an ally will help along Aegon's invasion of Westeros.

Now by all means continue coming up with in story evidence for this theory. I don't beleive in it, but you see I allow people to have their own opinions. But from a meta perspective the theory is not guaranteed as you seem to think because the idea that the only reason Martin would spend time on Quentyn is to make him a dragon rider simply isn't true.

[Fearsome Fred]

Look, regardless of whether your theory or not is correct, you still have to accept that there are other reasons Martin might have focused on Quentyn aside from making him a dragon rider.

There could be. I have never said otherwise.

e.g Quentyn is the one who released the dragons, so that they could reach Victarion and his horn faster. Without him it'd be a lot longer before he or anyone else got their dragons.

That does not explain why he spent 6-8 chapters developing the Quentyn subplot. The creatures can burrow through stone. If GRRM wants them to escape, he does not need Quentyn. Nor does using Quentyn for this purpose require a 6-8 chapter setup, including 4 POV chapters.

Also his death will be the last straw pushing the Dornish to side with Aegon against Dany. Contrary to what you beleive this will not somehow prevent the books from ever reaching it's conclusion. In fact it could speed up the plot as having Dorne as an ally will help along Aegon's invasion of Westeros.

You have a strange idea of "speed things up". I had no idea that Young Griff's invasion of Westeros was what we've been waiting for all these years. How does introducing a brand new thread help resolve the existing threads?

But from a meta perspective the theory is not guaranteed as you seem to think [...]

I never said it was guaranteed.

[...] because the idea that the only reason Martin would spend time on Quentyn is to make him a dragon rider simply isn't true.

It is merely the best explanation I can think of. But the true explanation may be something no-one has thought of.

But there is ONE other explanation that works well enough. Some have suggested that GRRM is simply stalling, by writing empty filler which does not advance the plot. The only flaw in this theory is that it is not very optimistic about the future of the series.

[Fearsome Fred]

Dany was speaking in ignorance of the dragon horn, about people who do not seem to have used a dragon horn in order to tame their dragons. Those who are familiar with the horn, like Moqorro and Euron, seem to believe that it would work on multiple dragons.

The dragon has two heads? Unless the 3 heads are complete bosh, then having Q become a dragon rider leaves less for GRRM to accomplish in future chapters of this series (which GRRM has gone back to insisting will only take 2 more volumes).

I thought the purpose of Quentyn becoming a dragonrider was to control it and deliver it to Westeros. A forced alliance with Victarion, powered by an effective dragon-horn, would serve the same purpose.

I don't think you understood what I wrote. I explicitly acknowledged a plausible plot function of the dragon horn. I merely suggested that Victarion as deceased delivery boy (of dragon horn and ships) is more plot-efficient than Victarion who forces an alliance with Dany.

I don't see how that changes things. At the moment, the Yunkish will kill the dragons on sight. Should they discover that Quentyn is making progress controlling a dragon, they will kill the dragons on sight. At bottom, it comes down to not wanting to be burned alive, and that applies to the Yunkish, to Hizdahr, and to the sons of the harpy regardless of whether they think the dragons are under anybody' control.

[sigh] I thought I explained all that. Oh well.

Right now, avoiding the dragons is a viable option (and precisely what Dany's enemies INSIDE the city are doing, and probably what those OUTSIDE the cities would do, if given an option). A controlled dragon is not avoidable: one must deal with it, or flee, or die. Knowledge that Q may be making progress give a 3rd option: kill Q, before he masters his dragon. Not to mention that knowledge of Q's progress tells Dany's enemies WHICH dragon most needs killing.

[protar]

There could be. I have never said otherwise.

Well considering the fact that you scoff at every other possible reason why Martin could have been focusing on Quentyn, you seem to be indicating that.

That does not explain why he spent 6-8 chapters developing the Quentyn subplot. The creatures can burrow through stone. If GRRM wants them to escape, he does not need Quentyn. Nor does using Quentyn for this purpose require a 6-8 chapter setup, including 4 POV chapters.

Well that's your personal opinion. Personally I feel that the person that's freed the dragons and potentially ruined Dany's chances with Westeros with his death deserves some screen time.

You have a strange idea of "speed things up". I had no idea that Young Griff's invasion of Westeros was what we've been waiting for all these years. How does introducing a brand new thread help resolve the existing threads?

No where did I say that. I too am a tad skeptical of introducing Aegon so late into the game. However I wasn't saying that Aegon's introduction would speed up the plot. I was saying that Quentyn's death could speed up Aegon's story. Getting the story back into equilibrium as it were. And I think this "OMG, teh series will nevah be finished!!!" business that you keep going on about is a vast exagerration. At most he'll have to stretch it into 8 books and I'm hardly complaining about an extra thousand pages of Martin's wonderful writing. So it would go:

TWOW: Battle of fire and Dany's journey to Westeros

Book 7: Dany vs Aegon

Book 8: War against the Others

Perfectly manageable.

It is merely the best explanation I can think of. But the true explanation may be something no-one has thought of.

If you'd just look around this thread you'd see lots of perfectly good explanations which I've already outlined. You're entitled to your opinion but the way you go about saying them it's like their facts, and this is really really irksome IMO.

But there is ONE other explanation that works well enough. Some have suggested that GRRM is simply stalling, by writing empty filler which does not advance the plot. The only flaw in this theory is that it is not very optimistic about the future of the series.

Hopefully not true, and I don't beleive it of Martin. I think he's just bitten off a bit more than he can chew and is struggling to fit the whole story into 7 books.

[Faint]

I think Moqorro remains far too mysterious a character at the moment to ably fit into any plot cooked up by either Victarion and/or Euron. His motivations, whatever they are, remain unknown to us for the most part even assuming what he has said so far is true. That being said, if his mission is to aid Daenerys, which is the little we gather about his venture during the course of the last book, then I fail to see how aiding Victarion or Euron in their ultimate aims helps her any. Why he would help Euron, who, presumably, Moqorro has never met, is beyond me. As for Victarion, he seems to me born to be manipulated by those more clever than him, so I see little reason to think he is anything more than a pawn in Moqorro’s schemes. And if the horn truly can bind even one dragon, much less two, why would Moqorro make it so that it binds to Victarion or any Ironborn for that matter? He might need them in the near term in order to help in the battle for Meereen, and their ships for longer than that, if that is how he plans to transport Daenerys in the aftermath of the battle, but the pirates themselves? They seem quite expendable to me.

[Fearsome Fred]

Well considering the fact that you scoff at every other possible reason why Martin could have been focusing on Quentyn, you seem to be indicating that.

I have not scoffed at every possible theory, because every possible theory has not been presented.

I don't have to like the theories presented. I gave my reasons.

Well that's your personal opinion.

Yes, indeed, Mr. Obvious.

No where did I say that. I too am a tad skeptical of introducing Aegon so late into the game. However I wasn't saying that Aegon's introduction would speed up the plot. I was saying that Quentyn's death could speed up Aegon's story. Getting the story back into equilibrium as it were.

Makes no sense to me at all. Sorry! How does getting Aegon a powerful ally help Aegon's story finish quickly? Nor do I see why 4 chapters of Q's POV is necessary for Dorne to ally with Aegon. They are desperate for allies against the iron throne. They already seem pretty eager for Aegon, and they have not even heard about Q's death.

If you'd just look around this thread you'd see lots of perfectly good explanations which I've already outlined.

I do not find the explanations helpful or logical. Sorry.

You're entitled to your opinion [...]

Yes, I am.

[...] but the way you go about saying them it's like their facts, and this is really really irksome IMO.

I am entitled to my opinion. If it irritates you, that is your problem.

[protar]

I have not scoffed at every possible theory, because every possible theory has not been presented.

I don't have to like the theories presented. I gave my reasons.

Yes, indeed, Mr. Obvious.

Makes no sense to me at all. Sorry! How does getting Aegon a powerful ally help Aegon's story finish quickly? Nor do I see why 4 chapters of Q's POV is necessary for Dorne to ally with Aegon. They are desperate for allies against the iron throne. They already seem pretty eager for Aegon, and they have not even heard about Q's death.

I do not find the explanations helpful or logical. Sorry.

Yes, I am.

I am entitled to my opinion. If it irritates you, that is your problem.

I am not irritated about your opinion. Actually scratch that I am but because opinions are opinions I let it slide. What I won't let slide is you parading your opinions around as they are fact. Please stop it. Is it really so much effort to type an imo every so often so you don't come across as entirely arrogant?

About Aegon and the Dornish, my reasoning behind a Dornish alliance speeding up Aegon's story is this: Aegon's story, at the moment is him attemtping to conquer the seven kingdoms. Personally I beleive he'll succeed in claiming the iron throne and controlling most of the south. Having Dorne as an ally will greatly speed up this process, as he gets thousands more swords in his army, and potential spies in KL in the form of the Sandsnakes. It perhaps then take longer for Dany to subdue Aegon, should she attempt that, but it balances out fine imo. I also love how you danced around the perfectly good explanation of how Martin could wrap up the story in just three more books, even with an Aegon vs Dany war. Bravo sir, bravo.

[Fearsome Fred]

I am not irritated about your opinion. Actually scratch that I am but because opinions are opinions I let it slide. What I won't let slide is you parading your opinions around as they are fact. Please stop it. Is it really so much effort to type an imo every so often so you don't come across as entirely arrogant?

Go report your complaints to the moderators. You are boring me to death. Goodbye.

[protar]

Go report your complaints to the moderators. You are boring me to death. Goodbye.

I'm not the sort to report to the moderators just because I disagree with someone. Apologies if I offended, I'll gladly step out of the discussion. But if you can't think of counters to people's arguments you could at least say so.

[Euphail]

Personally I think the theory is quite brilliant and I sincerely hope it's true. It seems to me taht it is quite possible.

The dornish were definitely hiding something. The point of view options and descriptions were very convenient - which to me signals something is behind the curtain.

[GreenHand]

Wow, this thread has really spiraled out of line and out onto the yonder red sea. Haha.

Actually Fearsome Fred I think you make a compelling case which bears serious consideration. Even with "plot (in)efficiency" and author intention arguments aside.

It has become almost a maxim of plot speculation in GRRM's ASOIAF novels that unless we actually see a death on-stage and can positively recognize the dead character, we cannot assume anything.

Quentyn Martell falls clearly into this category. Fact. We see him burning and skip to reliable testimony of a unrecognizable burned corpse.This is all we know. From Quentyn's POV we know he was not charred instantly because he is describing himself burning. Whether this encounter with flame was lethal or not is, in point-of-fact, speculation and hypothesizing. The Burned man presumed to be the Prince Quentyn never speaks. We only have the word of Archibald Yrnwood and Gerris Drinkwater telling us who the burned man is. What Barristan Selmy tells us they DID well after the incident I think is reliable and relevant to the truth known to Archie & Gerris.

So I suggest we focus on them. The only route to the truth of the matter. The only one's (aside from Pretty Merris perhaps) who know the truth one way or the other is Archebald Yrnwood and Gerris Drinkwater. That is what we must examine. (Much of the rest of the back-forth lashing on this thread has resolved nothing).

I would like to hear some thoughts on why they would or would not lie.

1) Could the Prince Quentyn have survived? (speculation)

I think it is possible. Perhaps it was not a direct hit with the dragonflame. Rhaegal was in the pit so maybe he took a potshot from inside the pit. We know that mere dragon breath is pretty intense. Unless I'm mistaken Quentyn was wearing a Brazen Beasts uniform on top. So perhaps he just disrobed and discarded the burning outfit. With Archie's hands burned to badly to use a weapon its likely he did try to put out a fire with them. Either way he is probably disfigured and not in a good state. So I say the possibility of him surviving (from what we know from the Quentyn POV) is not freakishly unlikely.

2) Gerris & Archie at the dragon pit with the body.

We see that Archie's hands are really badly burned (to bad to hold anything), so I think its likely that he did try to pat out the flames. One might argue that he would only endure such pain for his prince. Or remove his flaming clothing with his bare hands. Archebald WAS cradling burned corpse. This suggests that it WAS in fact Quentyn presumably expressing love & regret. If we believe this gesture then Yrnwood clearly believes it is his Prince.

But Yrnwood may be a sufficiently good liar (still bad?) to pretend by merely cradling the body on his prince's order (he takes obediance seriously as a knight of "true steel"). The other, less likely possibility is that only Gerris a switch while Archie was turned the other way.

Archibald Yronwood had been cradling his prince’s scorched and smoking body when the Brazen Beasts had found him,...

When Quentyn indicates that the ruse is up with the dragonpit guards Archie and Gerris react very quickly in his defence. Gerris does not shy from being outnumbered. Yet when the guards come after the incident Gerris very quickly and immediately (reflexively?) drops his blade. The quote is thus:

Gerris Drinkwater was standing over them with sword in hand, but he had dropped the blade the moment the locusts had appeared.

If he were defending the Prince would his instinct not have been to hold firm? But perhaps he just very quickly grasps the practicality of the situation.

If he were about to do something incriminating like kill the burned man (not his Prince) then the immediate dropping of the blade makes sense.

NB: I'm not convinced either way from this scene.

3) Barristan Selmy's interview/interrogation

The two Dornishmen have just been told they are to be summarily executed. Barristan has just given them an out. A way out that is honourable and allows them to complete their duty to Dorne. So what is there to think about or deliberate on?! the exchange looks and yes their story does lack some detail. They quickly shift the focus from what happened how the Sellswords abandoned them.

I think there is definitely something that they are hiding. Even if it is not the survival of the Prince. It appears to be related to the Windblown and their mission.

If knew of the absence/death of the Tattered Prince then it would explain there reluctance. He is the only Windblown that wants Pentos, and would care Barristan's bargain. It would make their mission impossible. If the burned man is the Tattered Prince how would they know he is unless he said so.

4) If the burned man is not Quentyn then where is he and how did he get there.

At the end of the Dragontamer POV Quentyn has just caught fire and the wilder/meaner Rhaegal is approaching from behind. Viserion who he was making progress with is now leaving the chamber for the freedoms beyond. The Windblown are fleeing. If Quentyn was burning (but not lethally) and/or afraid of Rhaegal it makes motivational sense to (like the Windblown) flee Rhaegal and follow Viserion (who he is still busy with). So merely to escape I can see him following Viserion. Viserion is more peacable and only attacks those who attack him (and sheep) so Quentyn stood a chance. Viserion took up residence in a pyramid that was abandoned to the Dragons. So none of the Ghiscari nobles would have been present to witness a badly burned, possibly naked, but living Dornishman following Viserion. If he's burned and without medical care, alive in Viserion's Lair, then he may well still die.

BTW: I love Viserion. If I were to choose a dragon it would be Viserion. He is more peacable though fierce when needs be. He also likes to burrow. His colours are beautiful. I like him much.

[GreenHand]

My personal theory is that each dragon needs to be tamed in a different way, Drogon by force of will (the whip), and the other two by different methods, perhaps one by learning and one by magic. No true evidence for that either way, just a narrative feeling I get from multiple readings, rooted partially in Martin's pattern of not letting the same thing happen twice in the same way (Tyrion's second duel escape goes horribly wrong, etc.).

I like this idea a lot. It fleshes out the dragons as characters as well. Which is always good storytelling.

I like the theory, well argued, and like the "burning to bind the rider" concept.

Also a very interesting notion. To share fire with a dragon, to share its "flesh-element".

I did not complain about Quentyn not dying in his own POV. I gave OTHER reasons why I thought his burning was surreal, and I see no counterargument here.

Oh, it was surreal. In a sense. There was a delayed reaction. Either that means the flames though big actually looked worse than it was (eg only his Brazen Beast cloak was on fire). Or it could simply mean he was in shock. Shock is a very reasonable psycho-medical reaction to extreme encounters.

I think you are looking too far into it. It is probably safe to say that dragon fire has different properties than regular fire.

In the Dragontamer chapter Rhaegal's fire is streaked with green. We know only dragonfire can forge Valyrian Steel. So maybe indeed.

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I will not even respond to all the "Is Myrcella dead or alive" and "What schemes does Doran have arrayed against King's Landing" because I'm not sure it's in the scope of this thread. Start another thread entitled: "Is Myrcella alive? And has Doran staged a coverup?"

[Fearsome Fred]

I will not even respond to all the "Is Myrcella dead or alive" and "What schemes does Doran have arrayed against King's Landing" because I'm not sure it's in the scope of this thread. Start another thread entitled: "Is Myrcella alive? And has Doran staged a coverup?"

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/62020-golden-crown-golden-shroud-adwd-spoilers/page__fromsearch__1