The Kindness Jaime never did and his greatest Act (from Clash)

[Dragonfish]

No. It does not.

What? Is Bronn a witness?

He is a witness to how Tyrion describes the story, and his reaction clearly demonstrates that it was not a happy tale.

We don't know that, except arguably in the Sansa/Tyrion case. Sansa was perfectly willing, even eager, to marry Joffrey, so coercion is not an issue.

I seem to recall that Catelyn did not know she was to be betrothed to Brandon until her father announced it. However, I do know that when Brandon died, she was forced to marry Ned because custom decreed it. Ned also recalls Lyanna's lukewarm response to being betrothed to Robert, which implies that he would not have been her choice of husband. And in Sansa's case, it doesn't really matter that she wanted to marry Joffrey, what matters is that no one bothered to ask her first.

Besides, these are only just a few examples from the books. There are plenty more where these came from. We have Cersei, who was forced to marry Robert and was nearly forced to marry again after he died. For a male example, we have the Blackfish, who was ostracized from his family after he refused the match his brother made for him. And we also have Lady Ermesande (who is a baby) being married to one of the Lannister boys. Honestly, I don't know how you could read these books and think that nobles (especially noble women) have much of a choice in the matter of whom they marry.

But whether or not coercion is the norm in Westeros (which it may well be, considering how much GRRM loves the subject of rape) an arranged marriage is NOT synonymous with arranged marriage.

I don't understand this sentence. Could you please clarify?

And if coerced marriage is the norm in Westeros, I naturally disapprove of it, as all decent people would.

Do you think they should all burn in hell, as you believe Tyrion should?

But even putting that aside, the "patriarch" is the woman's father. Most parents love their children, and do not force them to marry against their will.

Most parents love their children in our world, but in Westeros children are generally tools for acquiring more lands and status through marriage. We certainly have some examples of fathers loving their children, but we have just as many examples of fathers forcing their children into marriage (and in Hoster's case, we have an example of a father forcing his child into a marriage she didn't want even though he loved her).

No. I reject the analogy, for reasons already explained.

Your reasons for rejecting that analogy have been shown to be false, so I don't buy this attempt on your part to dodge the issue yet again. So I must ask again: if a woman has no choice in whom she marries or has sex with, then how is this distinguishable from rape?

The age of the victim, per se, is not even the issue. Common sense tells you that when you pay a pimp to have sex with a starving 14-year old virgin, you are, for all practical purposes, a party to rape (and, for all you know, to kidnapping as well). Comparing this to an arranged marriage is ludicrous. And if you prefer starving 18 year old virgins, and tell the pimp as much, it hardly changes the situation.

My question has to do with the differing values in Westerosi society. In our society, sex with 14 year old girls is generally frowned upon (i.e.-it is usually considered statutory rape), yet in Westeros it is considered normal. Given that you don't think differing societal mores are grounds for excusing behavior you consider abhorrent, then why don't you have just as much disdain for everyone is Westeros based on their attitude toward sex with 14-year-olds?

[Fearsome Fred]

He is a witness to how Tyrion describes the story,

So am I.

and his reaction clearly demonstrates that it was not a happy tale.

I am fully familiar with Tyrion's self pity.

And in Sansa's case, it doesn't really matter that she wanted to marry Joffrey, what matters is that no one bothered to ask her first.

If (as you suppose) Ned would have forced Sansa to marry against her will, then Ned sucks. Does that answer your question?

I don't understand this sentence. Could you please clarify?

"Coerced marriage" and "arranged marriage" are not the same thing. If Westerosi marriages are coerced marriages, then I disapprove of Westerosi marriages. But "arranged marriages" are not equivalent to rape, as I said.

Most parents love their children in our world [...]

That applies to any remotely realistic culture.

Your reasons for rejecting that analogy have been shown to be false,

No. "Arrranged marriage" and "coerced marriage" are not synonyms. As I said.

so I don't buy this attempt on your part to dodge the issue yet again. So I must ask again: if a woman has no choice in whom she marries or has sex with, then how is this distinguishable from rape?

I disapprove of coerced marriages. I consider them equivalent to rape. I have made this perfectly clear and have not dodged the issue at all.

My question has to do with the differing values in Westerosi society. In our society, sex with 14 year old girls is generally frowned upon (i.e.-it is usually considered statutory rape), yet in Westeros it is considered normal. Given that you don't think differing societal mores are grounds for excusing behavior you consider abhorrent, then why don't you have just as much disdain for everyone is Westeros based on their attitude toward sex with 14-year-olds?

I am a Christian (Roman Catholic). I disapprove of sex before marriage in all cases, and don't think cads should go around seducing young girls even if they are 18. As to 14 year olds marrying, I don't think they should do so without parental permission, and (without necessarily ruling out certain exceptions) I don't think parents who love their daughters should or would give permission in the vast majority of cases. So, you see, my moral codes are not tied to modern standards. As G.K. Chesterton once said, "The Catholic Church is the only thing which saves a man from the degrading slavery of being a child of his age."

But I don't know why you are harping on the victims age, in this case. I made perfectly clear that the main moral issue was coercion. Anyone who has sex with a starving 14-year old virgin prostitute really ought to realize that he is likely a party to coercion. Anyone who patronizes prostitutes at all takes that risk.

[Dragonfish]

"Coerced marriage" and "arranged marriage" are not the same thing. If Westerosi marriages are coerced marriages, then I disapprove of Westerosi marriages. But "arranged marriages" are not equivalent to rape, as I said.

Well, I have been using the term "arranged marriage" to be synonymous with "coerced marriage." So go back and replace every instance of "arranged marriage" with "coerced marriage", and my questions remain the same.

I disapprove of coerced marriages. I consider them equivalent to rape. I have made this perfectly clear and have not dodged the issue at all.

Ok, then surely you hold disdain for every character in Westeros who has participated in their system of coerced marriage, and believe they should all burn in hell, yes?

[Fearsome Fred]

Well, I have been using the term "arranged marriage" to be synonymous with "coerced marriage." So go back and replace every instance of "arranged marriage" with "coerced marriage", and my questions remain the same.

Have I not answered your question? I disapprove of coerced marriage. I do not care to discuss your (unproven) claim that all Westerosi marriages are coerced. As far as I know, Catelyn said "yes", and any stubborn refusal would have been honored.

Ok, then surely you hold disdain for every character in Westeros who has participated in their system of coerced marriage [...]

Some coercions are worse than others. I don't think you have shown that Ned raped Catelyn, but even if he did, Ned was reasonably faithful to Catelyn thereafter, and did not merely use, discard, and abandon her. It would be evil, but still not as cruel as what Tyrion did to Tysha.

I should probably stop this conversation. It is clear you are a repulsive person who is attempting to justify rape by making stupid analogies.

and believe they should all burn in hell, yes?

I was being slightly facetious with that statement, and made it only because I was dealing with fictional persons. But it referred, specifically, to Tyrion, Tywin, and the guardsmen, who all chose to participate in a particularly cruel and heinous gang-rape.

[Dragonfish]

I should probably stop this conversation. It is clear you are a repulsive person who is attempting to justify rape by making stupid analogies.

And now I am certainly done. I have never once attempted to justify rape, but keep believing that if it makes you feel better.

[Fearsome Fred]

And now I am certainly done. I have never once attempted to justify rape, but keep believing that if it makes you feel better.

Then what the hell was the point of your "arranged marriage" analogy, if not to argue that I cannot condemn rape except by "modern standards", which you deem inapplicable absent a modern society to enforce them?

Was it not you that equated arranged marriage with rape, and then took the position that condemning arranged marriage was unreasonable in the context of a pre-modern society like Westeros? Serously, dude. If you were not justifying rape, then I fail to see the point of this entire conversation. But perhaps it would be more accurate to say that you were advocating moral relativism and moral nihilism, in which the idea of justification is null and meaningless.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

@ Fearsome Fred

Tyrion was a 13 year old child who was sexually abused by Tywin. When children, or adults for that matter, are forced to participate in a gang rape, they are also victims. Tyrion was forced. You are engaging in something called 'blaming the victim,' which I find repulsive. And spare me your victim-blaming counterarguments that Tyrion chose to do it or was too cowardly to oppose Tywin, I find them repulsive too.

[Fearsome Fred]

Tyrion was a 13 year old child who was sexually abused by Tywin.

Nobody has proved that Tyrion was FORCED. Tyrion himself does not claim he was FORCED.

That said, it was morally repulsive for Tywin to encourage, tempt, or entice Tyrion to commit rape, regardless of whether that amounted to actual force. Fathers should not encourage the moral corruption of their own sons. Still, I see no evidence that Tywin's encouragement amounted to actual force. Tyrion himself said that he WOULD (and could) have defied Tywin. Except for the fact that ... well ... a certain part of him wanted to rape her.

When children, or adults for that matter, are forced to participate in a gang rape, they are also victims. Tyrion was forced. You are engaging in something called 'blaming the victim,' which I find repulsive. And spare me your victim-blaming counterarguments that Tyrion chose to do it or was too cowardly to oppose Tywin, I find them repulsive too.

Do you deny that 13 year olds are old enough to be moral agents? And if Tyrion is repentant, why is he, still at the age of 27, grateful to Jaime for having procured a starving virgin for him to use and discard. Why has he not lifted a finger, in the last 14 years, to track down Tysha and make amends for what he did to her? Why does he still think that throwing a gold coin at her was sufficient payment, since she was after all, a "whore"? I see no repentance at 27, merely sadness that she did not "really love him." Sadness for himself, not for her. Is a 27-year old ALSO too young to know the difference between right and wrong? Why should I forgive him, when he is not sorry? He has progressed from RAPING whores for the crime of not loving him, to STRANGLING them for that crime.

[Dragonfish]

Then what the hell was the point of your "arranged marriage" analogy, if not to argue that I cannot condemn rape except by "modern standards", which you deem inapplicable absent a modern society to enforce them?

Was it not you that equated arranged marriage with rape, and then took the position that condemning arranged marriage was unreasonable in the context of a pre-modern society like Westeros? Serously, dude. If you were not justifying rape, then I fail to see the point of this entire conversation. But perhaps it would be more accurate to say that you were advocating moral relativism and moral nihilism, in which the idea of justification is null and meaningless.

I was attempting to point out contradictions and inconsistencies in your own reasoning. At no point did I ever claim rape was justified. You simply jumped to that conclusion yourself.

[Fearsome Fred]

I was attempting to point out contradictions and inconsistencies in your own reasoning. At no point did I ever claim rape was justified. You simply jumped to that conclusion yourself.

Right. You merely sought to show that I was unjustified in condemning it.

You failed. My condemnation of rape contained no contradictions or inconsistencies. But by all means, continue to try to show that my condemnation of rape is unreasonable, while denying that you justify it yourself.

[Dragonfish]

Of course not. You merely sought to show that I was unjustified in condemning it.

You failed. My condemnation of rape contained no contradictions or inconsistencies.

You offered a token admission that coerced marriages are akin to rape, then attempted to weasel out of the necessary conclusions by claiming that Westeros marriages aren't really coerced (even though I have offered evidence that they are). You have yet to offer any condemnation of every character in this story with the same level of vehemence with which you condemn Tyrion. That, to me, is an inconsistency, and I think it demonstrates that your reaction flows from the premise that Tyrion is bad and therefore willingly committed rape, rather than the other way around. That was the whole point of my series of questions regarding arranged marriages in Westeros.

Now, I would ask you to stop saying I am justifying rape, as I have done no such thing.

[Fearsome Fred]

You offered a token admission that coerced marriages are akin to rape, then attempted to weasel out of the necessary conclusions by claiming that Westeros marriages aren't really coerced (even though I have offered evidence that they are).

Sorry. But you have not shown that. Even where the marriage is coerced, the consummation is not. Baelor the Blessed did not consummate with his sister, and later put the marriage aside. Lancel did not consummate with his bride, and later put the marriage aside, leaving her to marry who she chose.

Catelyn apparently agreed to marry Ned. There is no indication she rebelled.

You have yet to offer any condemnation of every character in this story with the same level of vehemence with which you condemn Tyrion.

What? Is it a contest? Tyrion sucks. I have no need to prove that Gregor Clegane, or Tywin, or Jaime, or any other of the evil characters of this story, suck less badly.

That, to me, is an inconsistency, and I think it demonstrates that your reaction flows from the premise that Tyrion is bad and therefore willingly committed rape, rather than the other way around. That was the whole point of my series of questions regarding arranged marriages in Westeros.

Sorry. I still don't see your point. Even disapproving of all rape, and all coerced marriages, I am not required to agree that all rapes and/or all coerced marriages are equally cruel.

You have no evidence that Ned took Catelyn on her wedding night, knowing her to be unconsenting. But even if he did, there is no evidence his rape of Catelyn remotely as cruel as Tyrion's rape and abandonment of Tysha.

[Dragonfish]

Sorry. But you have not shown that. Even where the marriage is coerced, the consummation is not. Baelor the Blessed did not consummate with his sister, and later put the marriage aside. Lancel did not consummate with his bride, and later put the marriage aside, leaving her to marry who she chose.

A husband may choose whether or not to sleep with his bride, but a bride may not decide whether or not to sleep with her husband. Cersei certainly never had a choice.

Are you sure you've been reading the same book?

Catelyn apparently agreed to marry Ned. There is no indication she rebelled.

She had no choice in the matter. The books specifically says that "custom decreed" that she and Ned marry.

And Catelyn was not the only example I've offered. I offered numerous other examples, which you have tellingly ignored.

You have no evidence that Ned took Catelyn on her wedding night, knowing her to be unconsenting. But even if he did, there is no evidence his rape of Catelyn remotely as cruel as Tyrion's rape and abandonment of Tysha.

What happened to Tysha was indeed cruel, but I consider Tyrion himself to be a victim as well. And Tyrion did not abandon Tysha; she was cast out by Tywin, and as far as he knew she had no desire to see him again. Not to mention that the only person who could know where she went was his father, who clearly would not have been very helpful in that regard.

[Fearsome Fred]

A husband may choose whether or not to sleep with his bride, but a bride may not decide whether or not to sleep with her husband. Cersei certainly never had a choice.

Cersei wanted to be queen. She did not want Robert. Without necessarily justifying any wrong Robert may have done during their marriage, I don't think Cersei was entitled to have it both ways. It was up to her to say yes or no to the marriage. She apparently chose to say yes, for reasons of her own (power). It is not at all clear that she refused, or attempted to refuse.

Same goes for Tyrion's marriage to Sansa. Tyrion could have said "no", but chose not to. Tywin strongly urged it, but threatened no harsh punishment for refusal.

She [Catelyn] had no choice in the matter. The books specifically says that "custom decreed" that she and Ned marry.

The fact that "custom decreed" that Catelyn marry Ned does not prove that she had no choice, nor that her constent was irrelevant to the legality marriage. And she may have consented, regardless of whether her constent was relevant according to Westerosi law.

And Catelyn was not the only example I've offered. I offered numerous other examples, which you have tellingly ignored.

There is nothing "telling" about it. It is all a distraction. I have made it perfectly clear that: arranged marriage is not necessarily coerced marriage; some arrange marriages may be coerced; I disapprove of all coerced marriage, and regard it as evil and equivalent to rape; but no, I do not assume that all rapes are equally cruel and evil.

Your desire to change the subject and argue about whether 100 different arranged marriages are equivalent to rape is just that: an attempt to change the subject. You could simply agree with me that what Tyrion did to Tysha was wrong. Instead, you want to justify his behavior, while indignantly denying that that is what you are doing.

What happened to Tysha was indeed cruel, but I consider Tyrion himself to be a victim as well. And Tyrion did not abandon Tysha; she was cast out by Tywin, and as far as he knew she had no desire to see him again.

She had every right to reject him, and probably would have. But there is no reason to assume she would have rejected an effort to make amends for his crime, provided he demanded nothing in return. But that's not the situation. For Tyrion it is all about Tyrion. He does not care two shits for Tysha, unless there is something in it for him. A Tysha that does not love Tyrion could be dead, for all Tyrion cares.

Not to mention that the only person who could know where she went was his father, who clearly would not have been very helpful in that regard.

That did not stop Tyrion, once he decided maybe there was something in it for Tyrion. Now, all of a sudden, he wants to find Tysha. Of course, she would have been alot easier to find if he had looked for her 14 years ago.

[Dragonfish]

Your desire to change the subject and argue about whether 100 different arranged marriages are equivalent to rape is just that: an attempt to change the subject. You could simply agree with me that what Tyrion did to Tysha was wrong. Instead, you want to justify his behavior, while indignantly denying that that is what you are doing.

I blame Tywin for what happened, not Tyrion. And of course I am fucking indignant about being accused of justifying rape. You would be, too.

Now I am officially done with this conversation.

[femfatalatron]

I think this thread deserves at least a nomination for Most Unproductive Argument on Teh Interwebs.

I'm mentally beaming you each a cup of soothing herbal tea.

[Faint]

Cersei wanted to be queen. She did not want Robert. Without necessarily justifying any wrong Robert may have done during their marriage, I don't think Cersei was entitled to have it both ways. It was up to her to say yes or no to the marriage. She apparently chose to say yes, for reasons of her own (power). It is not at all clear that she refused, or attempted to refuse.

Same goes for Tyrion's marriage to Sansa. Tyrion could have said "no", but chose not to. Tywin strongly urged it, but threatened no harsh punishment for refusal.

I'm going to disagree here. I don't find the two situations analogous. Tyrion could have indeed refused Tywin's offer to marry to Sansa, largely because Tywin had other available Lannisters that could readily take his place, undoubtedly starting with Lancel. The goal, in the end, was to have the North in Lannister hands. This could have been accomplished by various means, not only via Tyrion.

This was not so in Cersei's case. She was the beginning and end to Tywin's hopes of having his daughter be queen, Cersei being his only daughter. So truly, Cersei had little choice in the matter. This becomes quite apparent when Tywin is ready to marry her off again before his untimely death and Cersei could do little to resist it from happening. And, no, I don't find Tyrion's thoughts on the matter persuasive. I imagine Cersei would be dragged to the altar much as Sansa was threatened about had she refused any marriage her father was dead set about.

That being said, I agree that Cersei wanted to be queen and was in agreement about marrying Robert. But this was only her agreeing with her father's choice. Had she not wanted the marriage, it wouldn't have changed anything.

Although, to be fair to Cersei, could she really have known Robert would be so terrible? She had not been betrothed to him before. Lyanna was the one with the capacity to see how terrible of a husband he would be, Cersei had been told to expect marriage to Rhaegar and had her sights set there. She was largely clueless about Robert.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

A "whore" who was, in this case, a starving teenager, and a virgin. Your claim that Tyrion regards such abuse and exploitation as "perfectly normal" only demonstrates Tyrion's moral depravity. Your attempt to justify it demonstrates your own moral depravity as well.

Believe it or not, it is possible, in Westeros, to find people who oppose such exploitation. The High Sparrow, for instance.

1) "Moral depravity" in a 13-year-old who married the first girl he slept with because she cried when he deflowered her (and himself)? That's a little extreme. By ADWD Tyrion is certainly morally depraved, but at 13, no.

2) Calling a poster morally depraved because s/he disagrees with you is very extreme.

3) You think the High Sparrow wants to ban prostitution for the benefit of the WOMEN? That's ludicrous. This High Sparrow probably hates all those brazen Jezebels who lead po' weak men astray, because, if you can't tell from his dialogue with Cersei, he hates female sexuality. In fact, I think he hates women, full stop, not unlike the real life clerics and church upon whom the Faith, its Septons, Septons and High Septon are based.

[Fearsome Fred]

Dragonfish wrote:

I blame Tywin for what happened, not Tyrion.

I blame them both. They are both guilty.

And of course I am fucking indignant about being accused of justifying rape. You would be, too.

Oh, I AM indignant that you accused me of justifying rape, or what you regarded as its equivalent. Especially since, in your case, the accusation was complete bullshit. Not to mention that the accusation was itself an attempt to justify rape.

Now I am officially done with this conversation.

Bye.

[Fearsome Fred]

Faint wrote:

That being said, I agree that Cersei wanted to be queen and was in agreement about marrying Robert. But this was only her agreeing with her father's choice.

I thought you just said it was also about her wanting to be queen.

Had she not wanted the marriage, it wouldn't have changed anything.

It would have changed at least one thing. It would have changed it from a consent marriage to a coerced marriage. That is, of course, assuming Tywin would or could have forced her against her will. Which is perfectly possible, but by no means proven.

Lancel managed to defy his own father's wishes. It seems you can get away with alot when you are willing to give up wealth, power, marriage, children, land, and titles.