Tower of Joy Why were the kingsguard at the Tower of Joy?

[Toccs]

I think it can be read either way. But my question was why describe either as "blue as the eyes of death" which, at least to me, invokes images of wights. But why this statement here, in this context?

I do think it is meant to invoke wights. Most of Westerosi culture and mythology can be traced back to the Age of Heroes and the Long Night. I don't find it hard to believe at all that people (especially in the North) would associate blue eyes with death, even though they aren't specifically thinking of the Others or wights, it's just a cultural memory that has been worked into the mythology over the centuries.

Also the blue rose petals are obviously a clue to R+L=J.

[redviper9]

The whole conversation is just an oblique way of saying:

Ned: Soooo...you guys weren't at the Trident with Rhaegar?

3KG: Nope

Ned: And you weren't in KL with Aerys?

3KG: Nope

Ned: And you haven't bent the knee to Robert?

3KG: Nope

Ned: And you're not with Viserys on Dragonstone?

3KG: Nope

Ned: Yet... you guys still say you are Kingsgaurd and that you are fulfilling your vows..? Uh, OK....

Basically this conversation is for us, the reader. Both Ned and the 3KG are discussing something that both parties already know about. It is just supposed to be one of those logic puzzles that we as readers are supposed to put together for ourselves:

If there are 3 Kingsguard who have sworn a vow to protect a king, yet we can eliminate them from being in the vicinity of any person who we know to be a king, how then can the 3 Kingsguard still say they are Kingsguard? Answer: they are guarding a king that we don't yet know about.

As to the "And now it begins" "No, now it ends" part of the conversation, to me that is the 3KG saying that this is the first fight (of what will probably be many) under the reign of their new king. Ned is saying "uh-uh, not if I have anything to do with it".

:agree:

[redviper9]

I think it can be read either way. But my question was why describe either as "blue as the eyes of death" which, at least to me, invokes images of wights. But why this statement here, in this context?

I do think it is meant to invoke wights. Most of Westerosi culture and mythology can be traced back to the Age of Heroes and the Long Night. I don't find it hard to believe at all that people (especially in the North) would associate blue eyes with death, even though they aren't specifically thinking of the Others or wights, it's just a cultural memory that has been worked into the mythology over the centuries.

Also the blue rose petals are obviously a clue to R+L=J.

As I recall, blue roses in Westeros are specifically associated with winter, which is the season of death (for lack of a better term). And yeah, it might also be a cultural residue -- particularly for Northerners -- of the Long Night and the first war against the Others.

[Jem]

I think it can be read either way. But my question was why describe either as "blue as the eyes of death" which, at least to me, invokes images of wights. But why this statement here, in this context?

I agree, the "blue as the eyes of death" also reminds me of the wights.I would guess that it is GRRM foreshadowing that "something" (or "someone" ie Jon) involved with this ToJ business will somehow link to those scary blue-eyed ice zombies that we read about in the prologue.

[King's Layer]

In reply to Jem.

So now me and my 6 buddies are going to kill you. Anything else to say? If you are just protecting my nephew (who I don't know about) and you don't have Aegon now would be a good time to pipe up. No? Okay. Now it ends.

[Dragonfish]

The land route they were taking along the Prince's Pass is the common way into Dorne. It's the way Balon Swann went when he brought Gregor Clegane's head to Doran.

Swann went through the Boneway. That's a far more logical path to follow if you're trying to get from King's Landing to Sunspear. Traveling through the Prince's Pass takes you too far out of the way. This raises the question of why, if Rhaegar wanted to hide Aegon, he'd go through and/or hide in the Prince's Pass.

[Dragonfish]

Possible that Lyanawas pregnant. Possible even thatJon is the result. ButtheKGcould have beenordere by Rhaegar to staywith myheirand mybastard's mother until the birth. As least as likely Hashim saying abandon the heir apparent(Vyserys)in thehope thatmypregnant wife has a boy not a girl.

No one is arguing that Rhaegar ordered them to abandon the heir apparent Viserys. That would be impossible, since Viserys wasn't the heir apparent at the time. What we're saying is that the Kingsguard chose to stay in order to guard the true heir.

[King's Layer]

Sorry. If Rhaegar and Aegon were dead Vyserys was the heir presumptive (not the heir apparent). I doubt the KG would abandon the heir presumptive on the off chance Lyanna (who is Rhaegars prisoner mistress or second wife of questionable legality) might be carrying a boy.

[King's Layer]

No one is arguing that Rhaegar ordered them to abandon the heir apparent Viserys. That would be impossible, since Viserys wasn't the heir apparent at the time. What we're saying is that the Kingsguard chose to stay in order to guard the true heir.

Actually this is exactly right. The KG were guarding the true heir. Aegon. Because if its Jon then they do not know it will be a boy when they head down there. And boys (VYSERYS) come before girls.

[Dragonfish]

Sorry. If Rhaegar and Aegon were dead Vyserys was the heir presumptive (not the heir apparent). I doubt the KG would abandon the heir presumptive on the off chance Lyanna (who is Rhaegars prisoner mistress or second wife of questionable legality) might be carrying a boy.

On the contrary, the typical procedure in such cases is to wait for the child to be born and see what sex it is before deciding who the new heir was.

Besides, it's entirely possible they didn't even find out about the Sack until after Jon was born.

[KristenM]

Swann went through the Boneway. That's a far more logical path to follow if you're trying to get from King's Landing to Sunspear. Traveling through the Prince's Pass takes you too far out of the way. This raises the question of why, if Rhaegar wanted to hide Aegon, he'd go through and/or hide in the Prince's Pass.

I thought the ToJ is at the place where the Boneway and the Prince's Pass meet. At least, that's where it is on the map I'm looking at.

[Dragonfish]

I thought the ToJ is at the place where the Boneway and the Prince's Pass meet. At least, that's where it is on the map I'm looking at.

I don't see the Prince's Pass and Boneway meeting anywhere. I'm using the map in my hardcover of ADWD, by the way. What map are you using?

[King's Layer]

Dragon fish. If they did not find out about the Sack until J was born at the TOJ why weren't they guarding Elia and her children? Because they were at the TOJ with Aegon.

Because they were.at the TO

[Dragonfish]

Dragon fish. If they did not find out about the Sack until J was born at the TOJ why weren't they guarding Elia and her children? Because they were at the TOJ with Aegon.

Because they were.at the TO

Or Rhaegar ordered them to guard Lyanna. They didn't have to be by the king's side as long as the king had at least one Kingsguard knight with him.

[KristenM]

I don't see the Prince's Pass and Boneway meeting anywhere. I'm using the map in my hardcover of ADWD, by the way. What map are you using?

My e-book version of ADWD doesn't show Dorne at all. Just the Wall, the Free Cities, and Valyria. I feel robbed! I'm looking at this map (which is supposedly done with canon maps from the books), and the map on the Wiki.

ETA: Just looked up your map on the Citadel, here. Now that I know where to look, it makes the Boneway on that first map of mine way more obvious -- and also nowhere near the Prince's Pass, LOL.

[Dragonfish]

My e-book version of ADWD doesn't show Dorne at all. Just the Wall, the Free Cities, and Valyria. I feel robbed! I'm looking at this map (which is supposedly done with canon maps from the books), and the map on the Wiki.

I'm not seeing the Boneway intersect with the Prince's Pass here either. I see a river get close to the ToJ, but not the Boneway. The latter mostly stays parallel to the coast until it ends at Yronwood.

[King's Layer]

Fair enough. But this all assumes that Hightower Dayne and Whent all recogninised a polygomous marriage in a time of civil war. Far easier to believe they did it allnfor Aegon.

[Dragonfish]

Fair enough. But this all assumes that Hightower Dayne and Whent all recogninised a polygomous marriage in a time of civil war. Far easier to believe they did it allnfor Aegon.

Why is it so hard to believe? The Targaryens had practiced polygamy in the past, and the Kingsguard didn't protest then. It's not their job to judge, remember?

[Toccs]

Fair enough. But this all assumes that Hightower Dayne and Whent all recogninised a polygomous marriage in a time of civil war. Far easier to believe they did it allnfor Aegon.

How is that easier to believe when there isn't a single piece of evidence that hints towards Aegon being in the ToJ, and in fact there are several pieces of evidence that outright contradict his presence there.

[King's Layer]

The evidence that Aegon is in the TOJ is the presence of the KG. The only evidence that he is not there is Tywin's statement that a mutilated baby was Aegon. Like Ramsay Snow saying a miller's boy was Bran. Not credible.