Syrio Forel Compared to Westerosi Swordsman

[James Arryn]

That's silly. most of Syrio's strikes were at gaps in the armor. Eyes, fingers, throat, ect. Also, I'm assuming a Bravo's blade is sufficiently thick that a long sword cannot cut through it. Lastly I would not consider a katana a long sword.

The red cloaks came at him from three sides with steel in their hands.

They had chainmail over their chest and arms, and steel codpieces sewn into their pants,

but only leather on their legs. Their hands were bare, and the caps they wore had noseguards, but no visor over the eyes.

Syrio did not wait for them to reach him, but spun to his left. Arya had never seen a man move as fast.

He checked one sword with his stick and whirled away from a second. Off balance, the second man lurched into the first. Syrio put a boot to his back and the red cloaks went down together. The third guard came leaping over them, slashing at the water dancer’s head. Syrio ducked under his blade and thrust upward.

The guardsman fell screaming as blood welled from the

wet red hole where his left eye had been.

The fallen men were getting up. Syrio kicked one in the face and snatched the steel cap off the other’s head. The dagger man stabbed at him. Syrio caught the thrust in the helmet and shattered the man’s kneecap with his stick.

The last red cloak shouted a curse and charged, hacking down with both hands on his sword. Syrio rolled right, and the butcher’s cut caught the helmetless man between neck and shoulder as he struggled to his knees. The longsword crunched through mail and leather and flesh. The man on his knees shrieked.

Before his killer could wrench free his blade, Syrio jabbed him in the apple of his throat.

The guardsman gave a choked cry and staggered back, clutching at his neck, his face blackening.

Five men were down, dead, or dying by the time Arya reached the back door that opened on the kitchen. She heard Ser Meryn Trant curse. “Bloody oafs,” he swore, drawing his longsword from its scabbard.

1) The comparison isn't with militia, though.

2) Articulated plate armor doesn't have all those weak points you are talking about. Virtually every weak point you mentioned has a corresponding piece of armor. Throat, gorget. Eyes, visor. Kneecap, poleyne, etc

At battles like Crecy, etc. the bowman who were killing the immobilized French troops often took a long time to kill them, probing for weak points, working their daggers etc. into them. The armor was designed to account for weak points.

3) Re: katana...I was being general. The katana was a 2 handed slashing weapon on average twice the length of a rapier, small sword, etc. e, the short, single-handed puncturing swords.

Edit: My keyboard is killing me. Please don't just throw massive quotes that are oblique to the point under discussion. For ex:, unless you think Jaime et al would be dressed like militia or household troops, please don't ask me to respond to that point. Not trying to be rude;normally I'd have no problem with doing so, but lterally every word is taking forevr to type, and half of them are erased when thebackspace button sticks.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

1) The comparison isn't with militia, though. 2) Articulated plate armor doesn't have all those weak points you are talking about. Virtually every weak point you mentioned has a corresponding piece of armor. Throat, gorget. Eyes, visor. Kneecap, Poleyne, etc At battles like Crecy, etc. the bowman who were killing the immobilized French troops often took a long time to kill them, probing for weak points, working their daggers etc. into them. The armor was designed to account for weak points. 3) Re: katana...I was being general. The katana was a 2 handed slashing weapon on average twice the length of a rapier, small sword, etc. e, the short, single-handed puncturing swords. Edit: My keyboard is killing me. Please don't just throw massive quotes that are oblique to the point under discussion. For ex:, unless you think Jaime et al would be dressed like militia or household troops, please don't ask me to respond to that point. Not trying to be rude;normally I'd have no problem with doing so, but lterally every word is taking forevr to type, and half of them are erased when thebackspace button sticks.

Yes, that's true. That was the issue with Myran Trant. However, most of the time most knights are not wearing all of that. Trant is only wearing ti because he knows about the attack on the Stark household beforehand. I don't know why there would be some scenario where he's wearing no armor and the knight is completely armored. That's an utterly ridiculous scenario to begin with. (Why no just say, Syrio has a plastic toy sword and the other guy can't die, who would win then?) But in the case Syrion has no armor and the opponent is fully armored, I assume Syrio would runaway and put on some armor. A katana could be two feet long though, which is the same length as needle.

[Kittyhat]

That's silly. most of Syrio's strikes were at gaps in the armor. Eyes, fingers, throat, ect. Also, I'm assuming a Bravo's blade is sufficiently thick that a long sword cannot cut through it.

Strikes to gaps are definitely going to be his best (and really only) hope against plate armor, but the fact that his weapon is a suboptimal tool for this task is inescapable.

And cutting through swords doesn't really happen anyway, except in movies. Sure, theoretically you could prop a sword against something, brace it so it won't move, and with full force chop it in half maybe ... maybe ... but that's never going to happen in a fight because it'll just be knocked aside instead. Sufficient energy to actually break the blade won't be transferred to it because it's lost with the weapon being pushed away.

However, the Bravo's blade may very well be beaten aside. That does happen in swordfights.

Lastly I would not consider a katana a long sword.

Really? The Japanese would. That's all a katana is: a Japanese longsword. I mean, you can say you don't consider squares to be rectangles, too, but that won't change the reality of the situation.

I really really disagree. With the exception of maybe Sandor, I think Syrio would take just about every knight in Westeros. I don't know why there would be some scenario where he's wearing no armor and the knight is completely armored. That's an utterly ridiculous scenario to begin with.

Why? Syrio was never shown to have used or trained with armor in any fashion. The Westerosi knights do. Why is it strange to assume the two fighters might use their preferred methods and best equipment?

Assuming an unarmored duel, though, Syrio certainly could win, I won't deny it. But there's no reason aside from personal preference for the character to believe he'd be at any particular advantage against any of the top, elite knights.

(Why no just say, Syrio has a plastic toy sword and the other guy can't die, who would win then?) But in the case Syrion has no armor and the opponent is fully armored, I assume Syrio would runaway and put on some armor.

Armor takes training and conditioning to use effectively. We have no evidence that Syrio ever received such training. It's also expensive, and we have no evidence that he owned any.

[Kittyhat]

3) Re: katana...I was being general. The katana was a 2 handed slashing weapon on average twice the length of a rapier, small sword, etc. e, the short, single-handed puncturing swords.

Small quibble here: you're thinking of smallswords. Katanas really aren't that long. A rapier if anything would tend to be longer -- they were by no means the light, whippy, tiny toys used today in sport fencing.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Strikes to gaps are definitely going to be his best (and really only) hope against plate armor, but the fact that his weapon is a suboptimal tool for this task is inescapable. And cutting through swords doesn't really happen anyway, except in movies. Sure, theoretically you could prop a sword against something, brace it so it won't move, and with full force chop it in half maybe ... maybe ... but that's never going to happen in a fight because it'll just be knocked aside instead. Sufficient energy to actually break the blade won't be transferred to it because it's lost with the weapon being pushed away. However, the Bravo's blade may very well be beaten aside. That does happen in swordfights. Really? The Japanese would. That's all a katana is: a Japanese longsword. I mean, you can say you don't consider squares to be rectangles, too, but that won't change the reality of the situation. Why? Syrio was never shown to have used or trained with armor in any fashion. The Westerosi knights do. Why is it strange to assume the two fighters might use their preferred methods and best equipment? Assuming an unarmored duel, though, Syrio certainly could win, I won't deny it. But there's no reason aside from personal preference for the character to believe he'd be at any particular advantage against any of the top, elite knights. Armor takes training and conditioning to use effectively. We have no evidence that Syrio ever received such training. It's also expensive, and we have no evidence that he owned any.

well we have evidence he's familiar with knights and their armaments. Knights in Westeros aren't usually fully armored. And swordsmen at sea aren't usually completely unarmored. most conflict in the series happen with short notice its not generally a trial by combat scenario and in such a scenario i don't know why someone who preferred a Bravo's blade wouldn't use poison as Oberyn did.

would the japanese? I'd consider it to be thinner and used for cutting rather than prying into gaps in armor. I tend to think they also have a superior strength to weight ratio.

[James Arryn]

Yes, that's true. That was the issue with Myran Trant. However, most of the time most knights are not wearing all of that. Trant is only wearing ti because he knows about the attack on the Stark household beforehand. I don't know why there would be some scenario where he's wearing no armor and the knight is completely armored. That's an utterly ridiculous scenario to begin with.

But that is the scenario we're asked to address. Syrio might adapt to armor, but then he's fighting a different style. It's a construct of GRRM's that a style that mirrors a style of fighting in the gunpowder era has been shown without gunpowder, but that's what he's done, so if Jaime or the Hound or whoever were going to fight 1 on 1 vs. another sword master like Syrio, they'd have a serious advantage. Maybe it's ridiculous, but that's what it is.

(Why no just say, Syrio has a plastic toy sword and the other guy can't die, who would win then?) But in the case Syrion has no armor and the opponent is fully armored, I assume Syrio would runaway and put on some armor.

I don't think he would. Maybe a breastplate. But armor does conflict with his fighting style.

A katana could be two feet long though, which is the same length as needle.

Eh, there was a brief period when the fascination with the quick-draw...something like Iaido...led to sorter blades, but even then they were 2 handed slashing weapons. However the norm was around 73cm.

Having to keep answers short, sorry.

[James Arryn]

Small quibble here: you're thinking of smallswords. Katanas really aren't that long. A rapier if anything would tend to be longer -- they were by no means the light, whippy, tiny toys used today in sport fencing.

Yes, meant to corrcect.Can't explain how difficult typing is right now

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

But that is the scenario we're asked to address. Syrio might adapt to armor, but then he's fighting a different style. It's a construct of GRRM's that a style that mirrors a style of fighting in the gunpowder era has been shown without gunpowder, but that's what he's done, so if Jaime or the Hound or whoever were going to fight 1 on 1 vs. another sword master like Syrio, they'd have a serious advantage. Maybe it's ridiculous, but that's what it is. I don't think he would. Maybe a breastplate. But armor does conflict with his fighting style. Eh, there was a brief period when the fascination with the quick-draw...something like Iaido...led to sorter blades, but even then they were 2 handed slashing weapons. However the norm was around 73cm. Having to keep answers short, sorry.

was it? i only read the title. it says swordsmen not armor.

[James Arryn]

was it? i only read the title. it says swordsmen not armor.

Assuming Westerosi knights would fight to their disadvantage would be the same as assuming Syrio would be forced to wear plate.

IOW, the assumption is each in the position of their choosing given combat. OR at least it should be, or we'd also have to arbitrarily assign advantges for illness, injury, terrain, etc.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Assuming Westerosi knights would fight to their disadvantage would be the same as assuming Syrio would be forced to wear plate. IOW, the assumption is each in the position of their choosing given combat. OR at least it should be, or we'd also have to arbitrarily assign advantges for illness, injury, terrain, etc.

not really. knight's to walk around everyday in full armor. generally i'd assume they's be in something like what we see sandor or brienne in when traveling. mail and boiled leather.

[James Arryn]

not really. knight's to walk around everyday in full armor. generally i'd assume they's be in something like what we see sandor or brienne in when traveling. mail and boiled leather.

They sleep in less.

Either we assume a combat scenario, or we're being arbitrary. In any of the 'best swordsman' threads I've seen here, the assumption isn't a tavern brawl, but a neutralized, pre-meditated combat scenario, either battle or one on one style, a la Mountain/Viper or Bronn/Egen.

If you want to take it to something else, go ahead, but imo that's a different conversation.

[Kittyhat]

would the japanese? I'd consider it to be thinner and used for cutting rather than prying into gaps in armor. I tend to think they also have a superior strength to weight ratio.

Well yeah, they would. The Japanese longsword (popularly called katana) certainly differed from the European longsword in various ways (especially its relative inefficiency as a thrusting weapon but arguable superiority as a cutting one), but its status as some sort of mythical "other" sword is purely a Hollywood thing. It simply isn't that special.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

They sleep in less. Either we assume a combat scenario, or we're being arbitrary. In any of the 'best swordsman' threads I've seen here, the assumption isn't a tavern brawl, but a neutralized, pre-meditated combat scenario, either battle or one on one style, a la Mountain/Viper or Bronn/Egen. If you want to take it to something else, go ahead, but imo that's a different conversation.

just to be clear/ i'm never assuming that on any combat thread i comment on.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Well yeah, they would. The Japanese longsword (popularly called katana) certainly differed from the European longsword in various ways (especially its relative inefficiency as a thrusting weapon but arguable superiority as a cutting one), but its status as some sort of mythical "other" sword is purely a Hollywood thing. It simply isn't that special.

yeah... i don't think it was a hollywood i got it from. I thought the composition of the sword was less homogeneous like the composite bow, it was relatively unique manufacturing process, that created superior strength at lower weights

[James Arryn]

just to be clear/ i'm never assuming that on any combat thread i comment on.

Ok.

[James Arryn]

katana, imo you're both a bit right.

it has been mythologized beyond recognition, but it's folding process...particularly the composition/sequence of the clay mold, was something exceptional.

No such thing as best sword ever, but in terms of being effective wthin is context/weapon system, its amazing.

If I had to choose the most effective sword within its context,and especially within its weapon system, it would be the gladius.

[Kittyhat]

yeah... i don't think it was a hollywood i got it from. I thought the composition of the sword was less homogeneous like the composite bow, it was relatively unique manufacturing process, that created superior strength at lower weights

They compensated for a lack of quality iron. It was impressive adaptation to bad circumstances to be sure, but there was nothing inherently superior about the Japanese longsword. In fact, it would have been an inferior weapon against plate armor due to its relative lack of thrusting utility, but that's another matter.

Edit: And in fairness, it was never designed to defeat plate armor. If the Japanese at that time had had to deal with plate-armored foes, they would naturally have developed suitable weapons for the task.

[Kittyhat]

If I had to choose the most effective sword within its context,and especially within its weapon system, it would be the gladius.

I'm a fan of those zweihanders personally. Very technical weapons, not at all like the lumbering things they're popularly portrayed as being. They're suprisingly pretty, too!

Katanas are pretty too, though. Swept-hilt rapiers as well!

[James Arryn]

I'm a fan of those zweihanders personally. Very technical weapons, not at all like the lumbering things they're popularly portrayed as being. They're suprisingly pretty, too!

Katanas are pretty too, though. Swept-hilt rapiers as well!

Yeah, all impressive.A lot of European swords in general can be wonderful.

The reason I say the gladius within its weapon system is that it was perfect; for what the legionnaire needed to do, for what their usual adversaries normally did, and for the buzzsaw it created in conjunction with the shield, pilum, etc. Just a machine.

[Kittyhat]

Yeah, all impressive.A lot of European swords in general can be wonderful.

The reason I say the gladius within its weapon system is that it was perfect; for what the legionnaire needed to do, for what their usual adversaries normally did, and for the buzzsaw it created in conjunction with the shield, pilum, etc. Just a machine.

If I'm thinking of the right weapon/shield combination, that scutum didn't hurt matters either. ;)