Stannis is the One True King

[The Dornishman's Wife]

You might wanna rethink that example... Considering that when Julius Caesar got killed, his (adopted) son ruled the Roman Empire for forty years, as per Caesar's last will.

Not that it's so totally relevant to the discussion, but no: Caesar's last will only included that Octavian should get (the bulk of) Caesar's private property, not that he should become ruler and his rule only started much later (though still shortly before he killed who was most probably Caesar's actual son).

[Ferrous]

You might wanna rethink that example... Considering that when Julius Caesar got killed, his (adopted) son ruled the Roman Empire for forty years, as per Caesar's last will.

After winning a civil war.

Besides Julius Caesar was never Emperor.

After winning the civil war Augustus became the first Roman Emperor.

[mcb]

Not that it's so totally relevant to the discussion, but no: Caesar's last will only included that Octavian should get (the bulk of) Caesar's private property, not that he should become ruler and his rule only started much later (though still shortly before he killed who was most probably Caesar's actual son).

OK, I give you that. Octavian inherited Caesar's name and his estate. And having Caesar's name was a very valuable political tool on his way to become the Emperor. Pretty much the scenario, which Babeldygob painted as ridiculous: someone, claiming to be Caesar's heir, gets to rule Europe.

And Augustus didn't have the benefit of established monarchy, quite the opposite: centuries of republican tradition and powerful anti-monarchist resentment.

After winning a civil war.

Indeed. Just like whoever finally gets the Iron Throne, needs to win the war first.

Besides Julius Caesar was never Emperor.

After winning the civil war Augustus became the first Roman Emperor.

True. Yet, at least in the eyes of the conspirators, Caesar became a monarch in all but name. Hence the assassination.

[LuisDantas]

Every chance?

Yes, every chance. Unless I missed some important scene. Or something happened off-panel, I suppose.

His own generals informed him it was not necessary to siege Storm's End, he decided to attack because he was worried that people might think he was scared of his brother.

And perhaps also because he would rather not run the risk of being surrounded by enemies. Anyway, I fail to see how that involves denying Stannis any chance to surrender or give up.

Renly refused to turn his back to Stannis, but he never made a point of killing him.

I just don't see how acknowledging an army that is obviously coming after his territory amounts to refusing Stannis a chance to surrender.

The only advice he gives to his men is not to desecrate his brother's body - Is that every opportunity?

No, it is not. Nor is it any evidence that he encouraged or even allowed them to kill Stannis if they could help it, either. You are assuming instructions that we never saw him give.

You can't blame Renly for realizing that Stannis is not a man who allows himself to be captured alive. Or maybe you disagree? The Stannis I picture simply wouldn't accept such a defeat. Am I misjudging Stannis in this regard, perhaps?

When Ned and Rob broke the Iron Islands they didn't kill everyone simply because the battle had begun, they afforded Balon Greyjoy every opportunity to surrender.

Yep. They did. So did Renly with respect to Stannis, who did not return the favor. Nor did Stannis bother to spare the lives of the smallborn Iron Islanders that he captured, or at least that what he tells Jon in the letter that we saw in Chapter 35, page 471 of ADWD.

Stannis has an unhealthy lack of regard for the human life, and he has shown that consistently for three books now (four if we include AFFC, but that would not be fair).

I get that you like Renly, but honestly in his last chapter all he does is insult his brother, then threaten Catelyn and talk about what a big man he is. Got what was coming to him..

Nope, not by a long shot.

By that measure Stannis ought to be featured in one of the Saw movies by now.

Oh, and a murder can't be treacherous when you tell them beforehand you will kill them. If anything that's an open and upfront murder..

Almost, actually.

There is an important distinction to be made between death by warfare and murder. Warfare is, at its best, a ritual of proud people taking the measure of each other to solve irreconciliable differences. It involves attempts at scaring the other side towards surrender or flight as much as it involves the display and actual use of martial power. When even minimally honorable, warfare also involves allowing and accepting said surrender or flight from one's opponents.

That is basically why murder and death in battle aren't interchangeable. Murder is meant to kill with no significant considerations of martial mettle, honor or ethics. Warfare is meant to be something else entirely.

Just because he offered Stannis an opportunity to surrender doesn't even mean he did it for him, it would be a great benefit for Stannis to relinquish his claim to the Throne as that would make Renly the rightful heir when he takes over.

Yes, it would. And it works both ways. It is just as true that Stannis would greatly benefit from giving up his own claim and supporting Renly instead.

For that matter, the benefits for everyone would indeed be far greater than if Renly supported Stannis instead.

I wonder why so many people bring the one scenario but not the reverse. Is the idea that Stannis "deserves" the throne _that_ much convincing?

But we all know that the brothers are psychologically incapable of living at the shadow of each other, so the whole matter is of academic interest only.

Really don't understand why you think Renly was being a nice guy or that he was affording him anything..

Uh, because he had the means and the opportunity - and yes, the right - to clean Stannis clock yet would rather not?

[Ferrous]

Renly however was a traitor and did try to cause an illegitimate revolution.

He didn't deserve to die because he insulted his brother or because he insulted Catelyn but because he is starting an illegitimate war and bringing into jeopardy the entire sucession system. If Renly suceeds then he will almost guarantee a future civil war whenever the ruling monarch died.

Robert Baratheon did not start a war against the Targaryens. It is often forgotten but Jon Arryn started the war when he refused to hand over Ned and Robert to be executed by Aerys. As far as the world was concerned Rhaegar had abducted the daugher of one of his Lords and then his father had burnt that same Lord and his heir Brandon to death. Aerys had a legitimate excuse to execute Brandon as he had threatened the life of the crown prince. Aerys most certainly did not have any acceptable reason to execute Robert and Ned.

Once Jon Arryn (and Ned and Robert) wera at war with Aerys they recognised that they had to remove the Targaryens from the throne in order to save their own lives and Robert had the best claim out of any of the rebels.

However Robert did not start a war in order to gain the throne and thus he can not be cited by Renly as a precedent.

In regards to the war of the five kings.

Robert was recognised as the King of Westeros and thus the next King is his legal heir.

Joffrey is considered the legal heir and his claim to the throne derives from that. Stannis contests Joffrey's status as the legitimate heir and claims to be Robert's true heir. This is his justification for his claim.

The Targaryens have not conceeded their claim to the throne. Daenerys uses this claim to justify taking the throne. As a historical parallel look at Bonny Prince Charlie and the Jacobite rebellion.

Balon Greyjoy is the legitimate ruler of the Iron Islands and he his claim to the Iron Islands is uncontested.

He has no legal basis for secession or for his claim over the North.

Robb Stark is the legitimate rule of the North and has good reason to seceede from Joffrey's rule. He has no legal basis to claim soverignity over the Riverlands.

Renly has no legitimate claim what so ever.

[Kate Poem]

Yes, every chance. Unless I missed some important scene. Or something happened off-panel, I suppose.

No, it is not. Nor is it any evidence that he encouraged or even allowed them to kill Stannis if they could help it, either. You are assuming instructions that we never saw him give.

Yep. They did. So did Renly with respect to Stannis, who did not return the favor.

Yes, it would. And it works both ways. It is just as true that Stannis would greatly benefit from giving up his own claim and supporting Renly instead.

For that matter, the benefits for everyone would indeed be far greater than if Renly supported Stannis instead.

1/ I'll repeat - every chance? WHAT Renly offered Stannis? I'll answer you: nothing. You could answer me about Storm's End, but it is a mere insult. "My brother crowned himself and proposed me something, what he don't need/want now." Do You remember similar situation? (Cersei talked about it). I do. They both were insults.

2/ He said "Don't. Behead. My. Brother's. Body." He said: "Loras will bring me my brother's sword after the battle". If You really think he did'nt want kill Stannis, I... I am helpless. I can ask You in this situation why do You think king Stannis is involved in Renly's death? Did he say "Kill my brother, woman?" He said to Renly "Surrender or you'll die. If You'll bend the knee, I'll give you two things." Renly said "Surrender or you'll die. If you'll bend the knee, I'll give you one thing. I don't need it now, I want Seven Kingdoms.Take it and go away."

3/ Great and wonderful Renly was a reason of hunger in King's Landing. Sweet Renly did'nt say "wait a moment, Robert - pregnant teenager? You joke, do you?"

4/ Respect for Stannis? What respect? "Your daughter is Patchface's?" "Take it and go away?" No even "fight on my side, let's defeat Lannisters, I'll take the crown off now, after our victory would be time for..."

5/ Yes and he hung rapists and burnt cannibals. Such a lack of regard of human lives!

6/ Stannis would'nt benefit from giving his claim. He would sit in Storm's End. Nothing more, nothing less. Renly said not about any place on his court or in Council.

7/ I disagree with You. Renly "look at me, I am god of rain! Look at me, I am wizard!" Renly with his clothes, tourneys and feasts, with - for example - his tent, where lacked only harp and shadow kittens - Stannis's tent, Stannis's meals, Stannis's drinks. Did You see any differences and parallels with EMPTY Crown Treasure and it's debts.

[Silent_Hero]

Renly had no business Declaring himself King anyway, the moment Renly declared himself King he forfeited the lives of the other Kings. And Renly didn't really have a reason for declaring himself king other than him being greedy, while Stannis knew that Joffery was a bastard born of incest.

[LuisDantas]

Kate, what does Renly owe Stannis?

Nothing.

What did he offer Stannis?

The chance to survive.

[Kate Poem]

/sigh/

A fact:

Stannis is Renly's brother, oldest living male from House Baratheon.

A fact:

Stannis did offer Renly place in his Small Council and title of Crown Prince, Iron Throne's Heir. He has'n t sons. Selyse is strong, healthy and ugly. No hope for her pregnancy or death. She has'nt even king's blood in her veins. IT. WAS. REAL. PROPOSITION.

A fact:

Renly did offer Stannis insults (I'll give you Storm's End as Robert gave it to me) and hurtful jokes.

[I'll pay the iron price]

/sigh/

A fact:

Stannis is Renly's brother, oldest living male from House Baratheon.

A fact:

Stannis did offer Renly place in his Small Council and title of Crown Prince, Iron Throne's Heir. He has'n t sons. Selyse is strong, healthy and ugly. No hope for her pregnancy or death. She has'nt even king's blood in her veins. IT. WAS. REAL. PROPOSITION.

A fact:

Renly did offer Stannis insults (I'll give you Storm's End as Robert gave it to me) and hurtful jokes.

I agree Kate.

Stannis was willing to be fair with his Brother.

In return Renly offered his brother insults

Quite how Renly thought he could be King over an older brother is beyond me?

[A Ghost in Winterfell]

It's not that Stannis killed Renly what bothers me, It's the way he did it, he used a shadow to murder him, he didn't even give to his brother a chance to defend himself, that was just not right, well thats my opinion.

[mcb]

Quite how Renly thought he could be King over an older brother is beyond me?

Err... by the right of conquest, maybe? That's what he planned to do with his huge army - win the throne?

With compliments from Captain Obvious.

[Jayaris]

It's not that Stannis killed Renly what bothers me, It's the way he did it, he used a shadow to murder him, he didn't even give to his brother a chance to defend himself, that was just not right, well thats my opinion.

Stannis is a pragamatist and he had no other options, I honestly don't see how it's any different to sending a faceless man to kill someone. Which Renly is all in favor for when it comes to Dany.

I suppose you could say he should have more compassion because it's his brother, but they make it clear there is no love between either of them.

[Lummel]

The kinslayer is accursed by gods and men...

[A Ghost in Winterfell]

Jayaris

I wasn't defending Renly, I was just saying that I didn't like the way Stannis killed him, even if there was no love between either of them, they were still brothers, a one on one combat would've been more honorable, but like Stannis said "Honor, he called it. Well, honor has its costs, as Lord Eddard learned to his sorrow..." so yeah everyone knows what happen to honorable people in the book.

[StannisandDaeny]

Renly vastly outnumbered Stannis, I don't think Stannis was in a position to ask for a one on one fight, and even if Renly would have agreed neither of them would have fought personally, so that wasn't an option. The show is misguiding because it mingles the death of the stubborn guy in the castle with Renly's so don't let yourself get confused by that: Stannis was genuinely preparing to battle Renly (remember how he wanted to lure them into the rising sun so they would be blinded during their charge). If he ordered the death of Renly like he did in the show he had no reason to be as skeptical towards Melisandre's powers later when she promised to kill the other Kings: he would know he asked her once and she succeeded. Remember later on when they're contemplating burning Edric Stannis says 'what's one death compared to the deaths of thousands' or something along those lines, well, it was the same for the death of Renly. Stannis is that kind of man: even though it was his brother, his death alone was still preferable over the deaths of all those who were in a position to save the Kingdom from Joffry. Because believe me, Stannis would've lost, but Renly would've taken great losses despite his larger numbers, or maybe because. A blind, overconfident cavalry charge against a good commander and a well-prepared enemy often goes wrong, and even if Stannis had been victorious the only result would've been both sides would have been crippled by the end of it (unless he killed Renly during the fighting, which is unlikely).

As to the OP, Stannis and Daeny both have the best claims. Look at my nickname, they should join Houses. If only to have a dragon with stag-feet and antlers as a sigil (which would probably be the best thing ever). Since Stannis (if he's still alive at that point, otherwise it won't be an issue, and I fear he won't) found it very hard to betray his King and support his brother's rebellion I could see him being willing to come to terms with Daeny if she finally reaches Westeros depending on the state of the world at that point. If it's being overrun by Others, they may be forced to cooperate. Daeny has to be a little better informed at that point to see Stannis as something more than 'an usurper's dog' however, maybe this is where Tyrion would come into play. But I suppose it's all wishful thinking really.

[kwvapor]

The kinslayer is accursed by gods and men...

I'd love to have a Stannis POV so we can see inside his head. After Martin finishes his book, he should work on a stand alone Stannis POV remake of asoiaf, Also----Varys POV. No LF, POV please!

I'll buy them----

[LuisDantas]

Stannis is a pragamatist and he had no other options, I honestly don't see how it's any different to sending a faceless man to kill someone. Which Renly is all in favor for when it comes to Dany.

You are correct. There is no significant difference. But we were discussing how fair Renly and Stannis were to each other, not to Daenerys.

I suppose you could say he should have more compassion because it's his brother, but they make it clear there is no love between either of them.

And it goes both ways. Still, it was Stannis and not Renly who decided to murder the other.

[StannisandDaeny]

Renly would have been more than happy to see his knight of flowers deliver Stannis' head to him after the battle.

[LuisDantas]

Renly vastly outnumbered Stannis, I don't think Stannis was in a position to ask for a one on one fight, and even if Renly would have agreed neither of them would have fought personally, so that wasn't an option. The show is misguiding because it mingles the death of the stubborn guy in the castle with Renly's so don't let yourself get confused by that: Stannis was genuinely preparing to battle Renly (remember how he wanted to lure them into the rising sun so they would be blinded during their charge).

That was smart of him, I suppose. But still, it is relying on an advantage that would last a few minutes to offset a very drastic disadvantage in numbers. Add that to his experience on the field and his earlier admission to Davos that he is relying on Melissandre's power and I flat out disbelieve Stannis ever expected to do honest warfare against Renly. That would make a fool of him exactly where he is supposed to be most competent.

If he ordered the death of Renly like he did in the show he had no reason to be as skeptical towards Melisandre's powers later when she promised to kill the other Kings: he would know he asked her once and she succeeded.

I don't see the relation, myself. Even we readers know for a fact that she killed Renly, yet most of us doubt she had anything to do with the deaths of Joffrey, Robb and Balon.

She has real magical powers, but they aren't limitless. It is particularly clear that they have distance limitations, or else there would be no need to row her to Cortnay Penrose's tower in ACOK.

Remember later on when they're contemplating burning Edric Stannis says 'what's one death compared to the deaths of thousands' or something along those lines, well, it was the same for the death of Renly.

That is a frequently brought up argument. And a fatally flawed one, as well. It is in fact not even an argument, but rather a statement that doesn't try to show its premises. For one thing, it assumes that the death of Renly helped in sparing other lives, when it is anything but clear that it did. For another, it also assumes that there were no better alternatives that would involve not murdering him. And then there is the not inconsiderable matter of moral right to commit murder.

So, sorry, that holds no water. It is just empty self-justification from Melisandre and Stannis after they have been lured by their own greed and pride.

Stannis is that kind of man: even though it was his brother, his death alone was still preferable over the deaths of all those who were in a position to save the Kingdom from Joffry.

Was it? Was it better than supporting Renly, for one obvious alternate choice?

I very much doubt it, and Stannis is a fool if he doesn't doubt it as well. Although it may well be that he has convinced himself, perhaps even after the fact. Stannis is nothing if not a very stubborn man.

Because believe me, Stannis would've lost, but Renly would've taken great losses despite his larger numbers, or maybe because. A blind, overconfident cavalry charge against a good commander and a well-prepared enemy often goes wrong, and even if Stannis had been victorious the only result would've been both sides would have been crippled by the end of it (unless he killed Renly during the fighting, which is unlikely).

That may well be true - I don't know how we could tell for certain either way - but it only means that Stannis was that much more reckless for choosing Renly as a target at that point in time instead of seeking an accomodation with his brother.

The man is a bleeding proud mary, and so many thousands of people died and are still dying due to his mental handicaps, that it is a wonder that he is so popular while Robb's competence and wisdom are often questioned.