In defense of Sansa

[Lord Highertower]

Why do so many hate Sansa so much?

I believe she is actually a very interesting character.

Sure, she starts out as a very naive girl who likes to play the lady, believes in tales of chivalrly and enjoys luxury and the life among nobles. But being naive at that age does not mean being stupid or unintelligent. Far from it. Sansa evolves and she learns realities the hard way. But at the same time she is receiving useful lessons on how things go at court and in politics and she matures. She is armed with good looks, womanly charm, in-depth knowledge of the noble houses and their history and with information. And now she is being trained in the game of trones by the greatest guru of them all in this field, the Littlefinger. Why, I think Sansa is on track to become the Richelieu of the Starks with the potential to achieve for the Starks thru politics and diplomacy much of what Robb was unable to achieve with his swords in the field. Sansa is out there to beat the Lannisters in their own game after she takes care of Littlefinger!

[Artanaro]

In my opinion, I see Sansa ultimately becoming the Anti-Cersei. The Queen Regent used her beauty and cunning to achieve short term and selfish ends, while Sansa will likely use the same methods for much more "admirable" goals. Sansa's experiences at the hands of Joffrey, may form the basis for empathy and thereby prevent her from playing the game for power itself. In this regard she may become a good "queen" that's quite different from her predecessor. The only thing I'm puzzled about is how she goes about breaking her bond with Littlefinger. Until she does that, she will remain his pawn rather than be her own player.

Artanaro

[Drkdstryer]

Why do so many hate Sansa so much?

I believe she is actually a very interesting character.

Sure, she starts out as a very naive girl who likes to play the lady, believes in tales of chivalrly and enjoys luxury and the life among nobles. But being naive at that age does not mean being stupid or unintelligent. Far from it. Sansa evolves and she learns realities the hard way. But at the same time she is receiving useful lessons on how things go at court and in politics and she matures. She is armed with good looks, womanly charm, in-depth knowledge of the noble houses and their history and with information. And now she is being trained in the game of trones by the greatest guru of them all in this field, the Littlefinger. Why, I think Sansa is on track to become the Richelieu of the Starks with the potential to achieve for the Starks thru politics and diplomacy much of what Robb was unable to achieve with his swords in the field. Sansa is out there to beat the Lannisters in their own game after she takes care of Littlefinger!

Quick point: LF may not be the best player in Westeros. We didn't even fully comprehend what he did till aSoS at least, still didn't really get him till aFfC. So what if there's someone even more adept, who GRRM hasn't seen fit to reveal to us? For all we know, Varys pulled LF's strings in such a subtle way that he MADE him move to the Aerie, and we just don't even know.

</nitpicking>

[Grumpygoat]

Littlefinger plunged the Starks and Lannisters into war with the Valyrian steel dagger lie. This much we knew as of A Game of Thrones. More was revealed later, but essentially, he's always stood out as an adept manipulator.

However, Varys is certainly on the same level. But outside of Varys, Littlefinger seems to have little competition in making the world dance to his tune.

[Gravity Gun]

In my opinion, I see Sansa ultimately becoming the Anti-Cersei. The Queen Regent used her beauty and cunning to achieve short term and selfish ends, while Sansa will likely use the same methods for much more "admirable" goals. Sansa's experiences at the hands of Joffrey, may form the basis for empathy and thereby prevent her from playing the game for power itself. In this regard she may become a good "queen" that's quite different from her predecessor. The only thing I'm puzzled about is how she goes about breaking her bond with Littlefinger. Until she does that, she will remain his pawn rather than be her own player.

Artanaro

Well we already have a good queen. It's Dany. And she doesn't even need to break any bond with any perverted manipulator. She's already her own woman and kicking ass.

But in any event Sansa is in no position to play the game of thrones. Unless you have a few spare dragons lying somewhere around, a woman can compete only if she's the Queen Regent of a boy king. Now she's controlled by LF. If LF's plan succeeds, she'll be the "Young Falcon's" wife. Only if somehow she has a son from this new lord of the Eyrie (forgot the guy's name), the boy survives, both her new husband and LF somehow dies, she outmanuvers all other competing and scheming nobles, kicks out Jon Snow (who's after all the legitimized heir to Robb, king of the the North now, even though he doesn't know it yet) -- only then could she control the just North and Eyrie. Only then she could just begin to compete for the control fo the Iron Throne.

[Artanaro]

Well we already have a good queen. It's Dany. And she doesn't even need to break any bond with any perverted manipulator. She's already her own woman and kicking ass.

More the merrier.

In many ways though, how Dany and Cersei achieve their aims is very different. Dany uses dragonfire and armies, while Cersei plots, backstabs, and seduces. But what they're trying to accomplish is different, as well, so that makes sense. In Sansa, I see someone doing what Cersei already does, but for good reasons and much more intelligently. Seduction is a powerful token for playing the game of thrones, but Cersei takes more coin than Gattaca ever did.

Artanaro

[Grumpygoat]

But in any event Sansa is in no position to play the game of thrones. Unless you have a few spare dragons lying somewhere around, a woman can compete only if she's the Queen Regent of a boy king.

The Queen of Thorns, Margaery Tyrell, Catelyn Stark, Arianne Martell and even Lysa Tully, halfwit sot and pawn of Littlefinger that she was, might all have something to say about that.

Sansa's in as much a role to manipulate as she has the wits to do so. That Littlefinger's a little blinded by Littler Finger in regards to Sansa's another bonus for her.

[Gravity Gun]

The Queen of Thorns, Margaery Tyrell, Catelyn Stark, Arianne Martell and even Lysa Tully, halfwit sot and pawn of Littlefinger that she was, might all have something to say about that.

Lysa Tully proves my point: she's the regent of her son Robert, and rules only in that capacity. Cersei is the other example. All other women exert influences on kings or lords to various degrees (Queen of Thorns on her son, Margaery on Tommen, Catelyn on Robb and Ned, Arianne on Doran -- or at least she tried), but don't compete directly, since they know they would never be accepted.

[Grumpygoat]

Lysa Tully proves my point: she's the regent of her son Robert, and rules only in that capacity. Cersei is the other example. All other women exert influences on kings or lords to various degrees (Queen of Thorns on her son, Margaery on Tommen, Catelyn on Robb and Ned, Arianne on Doran -- or at least she tried), but don't compete directly, since they know they would never be accepted.

You seem to define playing the game of thrones by actually getting the throne.

I rather define it by being able to decide who sits in a certain seat or not. Or are you saying Varys isn't really 'competing,' either?

The Queen of Thorns, quite directly, decided that Tommen, not Joffrey, would be king. Short of Varys and Littlefinger, she's one of the most dangerous 'players' in all of Westeros.

And then there's Arianne - she didn't influence Doran. She moved quite directly to gather allies in an attempt to place Myrcella on the Iron Throne.

If you're saying folk like the Queen of Thorns and Arianne aren't movers and shakers, you might as well say Doran, Varys, Illyrio, and the like aren't, either.

[Wolf Girl]

Lysa Tully proves my point: she's the regent of her son Robert, and rules only in that capacity.

Except Lysa Arryn never actually _wanted_ to rule, while Cersei does. Lysa wants her _son_ to rule, and never mentions him ruling beyond the Vale. She likes her little hidey-hole there too much.

I never understood the Sansa-hate either. Yeah, she did some stupid things, but at least they weren't done out of hate or evil, but rather for misguided trust and love. I mean, if people can forgive Jaime Lannister his crimes (which I can't), done in full knowledge of what they were, and also done as an adult, I think they should be more than capable of forgiving Sansa her girlish foolishness. I know she betrayed her father and later herself, but she wasn't to know that a) she was doing so and that in doing so, she was setting into motion the fall of her family. I compare it to Oberyn Martell and his "Baelor Breakwind" comment. Nobody blames him for Elia's death, the war, etc. because as a child he made a rude nickname. Indirectly he may be responsible in a "for want of a horseshoe nail" sense, but he, and Sansa, can't be held responsible for the evil machinations of others.

I for one am very eager to see what happens to Sansa, because I think she has it in her to become a great and just ruler, if she's allowed to. Meaning that if she was being raised by Eddard Stark, she'd have her natural goodness and compassion nutured. Instead she's spent her puberty with the likes of Lannisters and Littlefinger, and I'm afraid that she hasn't learned enough to be able to see Littlefinger for what he is, and to stand up to him. I fear that he'll make her into another Cersei, mistrustful, hateful, and conniving. I want her to still be good when she and the Hound meet up again, which they will do, right? Right?

[jon tarkaryen]

Why do so many hate Sansa so much?

I believe she is actually a very interesting character.

Sure, she starts out as a very naive girl who likes to play the lady, believes in tales of chivalrly and enjoys luxury and the life among nobles. But being naive at that age does not mean being stupid or unintelligent. Far from it. Sansa evolves and she learns realities the hard way. But at the same time she is receiving useful lessons on how things go at court and in politics and she matures. She is armed with good looks, womanly charm, in-depth knowledge of the noble houses and their history and with information. And now she is being trained in the game of trones by the greatest guru of them all in this field, the Littlefinger. Why, I think Sansa is on track to become the Richelieu of the Starks with the potential to achieve for the Starks thru politics and diplomacy much of what Robb was unable to achieve with his swords in the field. Sansa is out there to beat the Lannisters in their own game after she takes care of Littlefinger!

hmmm lets see:she betrayed Eddard

she dont likes jon

she is just like her stupid mother

she dont like arya

SHE BETRAYED EDDARD

sansa is one of charachters I hate most.I cant see her become anti-cersei I can see her become cersei.oh,and littlefingers whore.she deserve no more.I can never, never forget her betraying of Eddard.I would sooner forget gregor clegane all his crimes then her.what strike me most when I was first reading asoiaf was in her chapter when joffrey is leading her to show her hers fathers head.and when she saw it she just never care less.I would kill myself knowing that my father lost his head because of me and she was just... bored.but when she told her she is stupid she thought"oh no my prince dont like me anymore".

I hope she will die screaming.

[Steve Moss]

she dont likes jon

As of AFfC, her attitude towards Jon has become very postive. After all, he is her sole surviving sibling, so far as she is aware.

[Ser Greguh]

hmmm lets see:she betrayed Eddard

she dont likes jon

she is just like her stupid mother

she dont like arya

SHE BETRAYED EDDARD

"Betrayal" implies a conscious knowledge of the implications of one's actions. Sansa didn't realize what would come of her telling Cersei that they were leaving. Yes, it was a stupid, irrational, immature, and ultimately very harmful action. But it was one done out of ignorance, not malice.

She is much smarter and more level-headed than Catelyn ever was. Catelyn was every bit as full-fledged batshit insane as her sister, but managed to hide it a little better. Sansa has had her moments of irrationality and (sometimes extreme) stupidity, particularly in aGoT, but she was also just 13 at the time.

Not liking Arya? Arya doesn't like Sansa either. Sibling rivalry. She'd be delighted to run into her now.

Not liking Jon? That's just Catelyn rubbing off on her, and with Sansa it was never as extreme. For 2 books Sansa would have given anything to join Jon on the wall.

Sansa more than any other character has been given a place to grow from. We're starting to see that come to fruition, and I imagine that by the end of the series she will be a serious player.

[Grumpygoat]

Sansa more than any other character has been given a place to grow from. We're starting to see that come to fruition, and I imagine that by the end of the series she will be a serious player.

Sadly by the end of the series I also feel she'll actually be worth all the contempt she currently doesn't deserve.

No wolf, plus Littlefinger, equals one potentially vile woman in the making.

Which rather saddens me. I rather want the Hound to come storming the Eyrie, lop Littlefinger's neck from his shoulders, and save his Little Bird, but I don't see it happening. Worse yet, I see Sansa potentially betraying Sandor to Baelish if he ever does meet up with her.

But for the moment, she doesn't deserve anywhere near the scorn she receives. And anyone who'd forgive a baby murderer and rapist before they would a naive little girl...

Egh.

[Tohoya]

I absolutely hated Sansa up until AFFC. She was so incredibly shallow; I really hated how cold she was to Tyrion, despite all that Tyrion was doing to ensure her happiness. She couldn't look back his ghastly viage. OTOH, now that she's finally got all that nonsense about true knights out of her head, she's become a much more interesting character. In other words, Sansa= suck, Alayne= rock.

BTW, why do you refer to her as Richelieu? I know he was the power behind the French throne under Louis XIII and briefly under XIV until he came of age, but what did he do that was particularly memorable?

[Barba]

aGoT, but she was also just 13 at the time.

I think sansa was 11 in AGOT

I would also like to add: As Tohoya said: Alayne and Sansa are two totally different persons.

Sansa was little girl, daughter of Eddard stark. She liked Knights and considered them all honorable men. She loved Bards and their songs, she prayed at the Sept. All-in-all, she was a true lady-to-be.

Alayne is baseborn daughter of Petyr Baelysh, and as such she inherited very much of his wits. She is year older than Sansa, with bastard's strength that sansa never had. She knows how to lie, she knows how to pretend. She knows how to simply get what she needs, and keep her hands clean in the end.

In her last chapter in FFC, when they are crossing that bridge, ahe told sweetrobin something like: “Sweetrobin, I’m scared. Hold my hand, and help me get across. I know you’re not afraid.†I know sweetrobin is just a boy, but he is spoiled little brat, and it is hard to make him like you, and even harder to make him do things he dosen't want to. But she can do it. At the beginning of her last chapter, it was to her everibody went when they needed something of sweetrobin.

You might think that she is not that good in the game yet. She isn't . But she dosen't play the game yet. She simply watches one of the best one playing and tutoring her.

[davos]

I can understand the Sansa hate considering that she did betray Eddard. If one actually considers her perspective at the time and takes into account her age and rather skewed world-view her actions make sense, as tragic as the consequences are. This is exactly what I like about her character. She starts out as a shallow, niave girl who gets caught in the world she has always dreamed of and has to watch as it destroys her family and then uses her as a pawn. Her reactions make sense. Her distain for Tyrion is spot given the circumstances. Martin has done brilliant job of portraying her and her development. I've always believed her experiences would make her a much more interesting character as the series progresses and she seems well on the way in that regards.

As for her future role, I do think she will be a player, though how exactly she will be able to have influence is not clear. Woman do have power in Westeros though it is not usually direct except in rare circumstances (such as Lady Mormont). The Queen of Thorns holds as much power in her own way as many Lords of all but the great houses so there are means to influence for women.

[Wolf Girl]

I absolutely hated Sansa up until AFFC. She was so incredibly shallow; I really hated how cold she was to Tyrion, despite all that Tyrion was doing to ensure her happiness. She couldn't look back his ghastly viage.

I didn't like how she treated Tyrion at their wedding most of all, but even then, I could understand it. As someone who _was_ a girl of 13 once, I remember what it was like to have an idea of romance and what it should be. (And I wasn't even a very girly girl, as she is.) As for her treatment of him afterwards, we have to remember that she doesn't know Tyrion the way we do, and more than that, all the tragedy she's lived through at the hands of Lannisters. Yes, she could have made the distinction between Tyrion and Tywin/Cersei/Jaime, but she was only 11, 12, 13 years old. Bottom line: her actions may not have been the best we'd like to have seen from her, but they were absolutely normal considering her age and situation. (And frankly, I think she held onto herself very well, when you look at it that way.)

[Lord Highertower]

BTW, why do you refer to her as Richelieu? I know he was the power behind the French throne under Louis XIII and briefly under XIV until he came of age, but what did he do that was particularly memorable?

He was a political mastermind, manipulator and a superb plotter, generally credited for paving the way for the absoulte power the French kings (which lasted until the 1789 revolution, of course). He did this by masterfully curtailing the power of all major French noble houses, guilds etc., which were strong enough to pose a threat to the throne. By forming various unlikely alliances on the international scene he also managed to check the expansion of the Hapsburgs, whose power threatened France.

In short, a 17th century version of Littlefinger in France (although unlike LF he schemed for the benefit of the king and the realm rather than his own advancement).

[Yana]

With all the mistakes she did in previous books, I think Sansa will grow to be the great politician....everything is pointing to that. It's not just the learning she's getting from LF, it's because everything she's been through. She learned a lot, she suffered great deal...She is not stupid, she just needs to learn to use her head, she is pretty (which is mighty weapon) and she has experience in many things (even if she's so young). So who knows what she'll grow into? I bet she'll be capable of many things when she grows up...