In defense of Sansa

[Diva]

Unfortunately she was too stupid to keep the Tyrell's Willas plans to herself. If she had not blabbed to Dontos she might not have been married off to Tyrion so quickly.

Olenna probably couldn't believe it, after going to so much trouble to ensure they were not overheard.

[Child of the Forest]

Sansa has just seemed to be a pair of eyes through the last three books. A piece more than a player. When she was taking action, it was holding back the truth about Joffrey and Mycah and Arya and betraying Ned. That and acting like a spoiled girl, which she was I suppose. I hope she learns the game of thrones and starts taking a more active role.

So far I don't see the signs that she will, that many people seem to see. She's grown from an immature starry-eyed sweet and passive girl to a somwhat more mature, sadder and wiser sweet and passive girl. From Cersei's unwitting pawn to LF's unwitting pawn. She sees as much of LF's plotting that he shares with her, but sees through nothing else. She can cajole little Robert into not being a total brat, but as others point out, that's a far cry from manipulating men of power.

Even Margaery comes across as a more accomplished manipulator than Sansa - not just in drawing Tommen away from Cersei's influence, but in gaining popularity with the court and the masses as a base of support.

The Hound and Tyrion both complement her on her ability to keep her mouth shut and "play the politeness game", but that's not to say they think she's a politician - just tactful, and aware enough not to say something stupid.

If Sansa starts to show signs of seeing through LF and/or coming up with a way to advance her own agenda - heck, even a sign of her *having* her own agenda, now that she's free of KL - then I'll start believing she'll turn into something more than a secondary character.

[Jon Targaryen]

There was an old AFFC preview blurb that GRRM wrote that said Sansa would learn the game of thrones.

[TBBX]

I never really held Eddard's death against her because he would have died anyways. To me the only thing that would have been different would be the manner of his death. If Sansa and Arya were gone he most likely would have gone out saying that Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella were not Robert's children but in fact Cersei's and Jaime and that Stannis was the true heir. Now whether or not things would have played differently is debateable but there would be some doubt planted into the peoples heads earlier so maybe they would have lost during the whole blackwater battle and such.

What really bothered me about her was betraying her family. Even if she didn't think it would be a big deal or anything she shouldn't have. Eddard said something along the lines of them having to stick together because a pack of wolves survive whereas the ones who wander or whatever don't. As I see it none of the Stark kids besides Sansa have really betrayed their family and she should have known better. Right after I saw her not defend Arya I thought there goes Sansa straying from the pack and wham Lady dies. So I don't really see her going back to the Starks and if she does I don't think we'll see her as a Stark unless she gets vengeance and such.

As for the game, I'm sure she'll learn. But will she be able to put what she learns to good use? I don't really see her becoming evil like Cersei or anything since she seems like she'll be pretty capable. But by the time she learns the ropes of the game I kind of got the impression that the game won't be anywhere near as important. Maybe I think the whole Others confrontation will begin too quickly or that her training will take too long, but I had envisioned that by then the war with the Others would have started with most of Westeros helping to fight them off and practically everyone knowing about it. But then again if Dany spends too much time learning how to be queen in the east, and Stannis and the Jon with the NW are able to hold off the Others for a while then maybe she'll have enough time to enter the game as a player.

Also I would like her to outplay Little Finger, but the whole student surpassing the teacher kind of seems unlikely to me. Little Finger is a great player and I don't think he'll drop his guard to even Sansa that much. But here's to hoping that she'll be able too

[Devil Hanzo]

Yes That's exactly what I mean!

The thing about Sansa's submission is it didn't only seem to be in her actions. She submitted mentallya s well. She ws beaten and thanked them for it! I can't understand how she didn't ahve an overwhealming urge to kill Cersei and Joffrey every time she layed eyes upon them. Even if she submitted in apparence she ought to have rebelled more inside.

well look at stalin, he nikita kruschev(bad spelling) hated him, but was too scared to act against him, and showed his views only after Stalin died.

[WhiteQueen]

Unfortunately she was too stupid to keep the Tyrell's Willas plans to herself. If she had not blabbed to Dontos she might not have been married off to Tyrion so quickly.

Olenna probably couldn't believe it, after going to so much trouble to ensure they were not overheard.

She is far from stupid and she is only 12 (not 13 or 14). So she told her plans to Dontos, but she believes he is her friend. She has no friends, no one to talk to. I'd like to see any 12 year old girl in her shoes who is perfectly capable of not talking to anyone at all. The hell with Olenna's disappointment, it's not like she had Sansa's best interests in mind anyway, just the claim for Winterfell for her grandson. Plus, how boring would it be to see Sansa in Highgarden married to Willas?

[CelticBrennus]

Even Margaery comes across as a more accomplished manipulator than Sansa - not just in drawing Tommen away from Cersei's influence, but in gaining popularity with the court and the masses as a base of support.

You cannot fairly compare the two situations. Margaery has a major power base behind her, personal retainers, and is able to use the wealth, power and status she has to her advantage. Sansa has only herself. She has not loyal retainers, no wealth, no power, no status and no family to help.

[Child of the Forest]

You cannot fairly compare the two situations. Margaery has a major power base behind her, personal retainers, and is able to use the wealth, power and status she has to her advantage. Sansa has only herself. She has not loyal retainers, no wealth, no power, no status and no family to help.

But Sansa, in her POV chapters, doesn't even express the interest or desire to do such things, whether or not she thinks she had the resources to succeed.

If we did not have her POV, and just saw her hiding behind her armor of politeness with Cersei and then LF, I could certainly see people suspecting that she might be learning the game, and expect her to pull off her own plot someday. But we *do* have her POV, so we know she isn't, so far.

Also, if as someone points out, GRRM says she'll learn the Game, then she's going to need *alot* of character development to make it believeable if, for example, she suddenly hatches a plot of her own. Of course such development is perfectly plausible given who she's with now. Perhaps it would even be some sort of sudden revelation - "hey, LF is playing me and I've been a fool all this time, but now it's time for me to get my revenge", say. But it would be unthinkable for her to *start off* ADWD by beating LF at his own game, or even taking her first shot at playing it, since she currently still doesn't even think in terms of wanting to learn it. I think alot of people are reading into her that *current* desire/ability because they *wish* that she would, or they are projecting GRRM's statement of her eventual status onto the now. I don't see it in the text yet. If I'm missing something, please fill me in....

[CelticBrennus]

I think alot of people are reading into her that *current* desire/ability because they *wish* that she would, or they are projecting GRRM's statement of her eventual status onto the now. I don't see it in the text yet. If I'm missing something, please fill me in....

How about the fact she is younger then a high school freshman? I think you may have unrealistic expectation of what children are capable of.

[Seventh Pup]

How about the fact she is younger then a high school freshman? I think you may have unrealistic expectation of what children are capable of.

It has been my experience that children are much more capable then they are given credit for being. Also she is not a child, like say Rickon, or Tommen are children, she a young woman.

Sansa is a nice girl, and that makes her enduring. I really truly hope that by the end of the series Sansa is in a happy (or at the very least decent) marriage, and that her life does not completely suck. But the fact that she seems to take nothing from her past experiences is for lack of a better word, dense.

She is not as stupid as Cersei (who was raised by a man who excelled at the game, is over twice her age, and has been in court for over 10 years) but she is not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed either.

Dontos really gives her no reason to trust him, and yet she does with an exceptionally important secret. (You would think the Lady, and Ned incident would have made her wearier but not for Sansa). She could have befriended Margery or the Tyrells and talked with them, but she doesn't. Granted a close friendship with the Tyrells might have raised the Lannister suspicions as well, but at least it would not have been such a stupid mistake.

Sansa may learn to play the game, but I don't see her being good at it believably. She lacks the ruthlessness, as well as the instinct.

Perhaps she will get just good enough at it to cock up Little Finger's plans, by luck. After all I doubt Sansa would press her claim for the North once she knows Bran and Rickon are alive. Perhaps her best play will be to help one of them reclaim Winterfell by simply recognizing them publicly.

She has a part to play in the story, but I do not think it is as LF true heir as game master.

[Jabberwocky]

The way GRRM has written his story from POV's is just wondeful. He makes me believe that I am that individual person. Sansa has grown from the self-centered, spoil, naive little girl she was in the begining, sadly at great expense to herself and her family. While I agree that there were quite a number of people who played a role in Ned's death, I think she played a bigger role than most seem to see. In ACOC, when Tyrion is discussing the fiasco of Ned's death with Cersei, she tells Tyrion:

"Eddard Stark was plotting with Renly and he'd written to Lord Stannis, offering him the throne. We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father's plans...."

Cersei was able to move as quickly as she did because of what Sansa told her. Marrying Joffrey, and becoming his queen eventually, was more important to her then her family. Realizing her dream was more important to her than heeding her father's words. Do I blame her for that? No, she was a 12 yr old girl. Do I blame her mother and old Nan and all those who put those nonsense "I'm a pretty princess stories in her head"? Most assuredly.

That said, Sansa character has evolved and she is growing up. If she becomes a contender for the Throne, which may or may not be possible within the series, I wonder if Arya will play a part in Sansa's demise. I can't recall if it was Catelyn or Ned who reminded Arya about the importance of loving your sister. To me that was a definite momment of foreshowdowing something of significance between the two sisters for later on in the books.

[TLL17]

In terms of being in a realtviely safe position that can allow her to gain some power, Sansa's in a okay position right now.

Her behavior is also completely proper right now-keeping her head down, staying quiet, and listening and learning.

She's grown up alot compared to the silly annoying teenager she was in the first book. I did despise her in the first book for betraying the family, even if she didn't know any better.

She might even become a Wolf again. In her own way.

[Child of the Forest]

How about the fact she is younger then a high school freshman? I think you may have unrealistic expectation of what children are capable of.

You'll note that I'm talking about what she wants to do and is interested in, not what she's capable of doing. She doesn't dream of playing the Game - she's just trying to make it through.

[Child of the Forest]

Cersei was able to move as quickly as she did because of what Sansa told her. Marrying Joffrey, and becoming his queen eventually, was more important to her then her family. Realizing her dream was more important to her than heeding her father's words. Do I blame her for that? No, she was a 12 yr old girl. Do I blame her mother and old Nan and all those who put those nonsense "I'm a pretty princess stories in her head"? Most assuredly.

I don't think she was trying to be queen at the expense of her family. At that point she is simply so naive and idealistic that she accepted that somehow her father had become a traitor because she couldn't fathom Cersei lying about it for political gain, and therefore accepted that he must be punished, though she was clearly saddened when that turned into an execution.

I don't recall Catelyn ever being the source of "pretty princess" stories. Certainly she tried to teach her to be ladylike, because this is what is necessary for survival among the high and mighty for a woman. Catelyn is herself pretty politically savvy - not in terms of LF-style plotting, to be sure, as she didn't always see when she was being played, but consider her generally good advice to Robb and how bad things happened when he ignored it. Therefore I think of her as teaching her to be ladylike as a first step in how to handle herself, but did not have the chance to get much deeper before events took Sansa away still starry-eyed from Nan's stories.

[Jabberwocky]

I didn't mean it to sound as if she knowingly did these things at her families expense. Perhaps I should have worded it differently. Sansa , unlike Arya, could not see through Cersei and Joffrey for what they truly were. She was so consumed with the idea of being betrothed and married to Joff and all that that entailed that she would do anything to keep it intact. Being young and naive and only thinking of herself ( normal for her age) and not the consequenses , she went running to the Cersei and divulged everything. You would have thought she learned a lesson with the whole situation with Lady. She accepted no blame for not speaking up, and placed none on the Queen Cersei or Joff. Her vision was clouded. The same with her betryal of her father.

Catelyn catered to her being the perfect little lady. Nothing wrong with that. It is what is expected of a young highborn daughter. But where was the reality? She was molded into believing life was just like the songs or at least I should say no one discouraged from believing that all knights were honorable etc. And yes, it is a shame Catelyn didn't have the opportunity to teach her about what to expect in reality. But then we wouldn't have had much of a story if she had would we.

I really like Sansa's character. She has made me want to knock her across the room and slap some sense in her , she has made me cry and she has made me want to root for her. I feel such a range of emotions while reading all these different characters.

to GRRM

[Wouter]

As for the game, I'm sure she'll learn. But will she be able to put what she learns to good use? I don't really see her becoming evil like Cersei or anything since she seems like she'll be pretty capable. But by the time she learns the ropes of the game I kind of got the impression that the game won't be anywhere near as important. Maybe I think the whole Others confrontation will begin too quickly or that her training will take too long, but I had envisioned that by then the war with the Others would have started with most of Westeros helping to fight them off and practically everyone knowing about it.

Sansa's role in the books may well be about the "aftermath", making sure that the Starks re-take their position from before the books as lords (or even kings) of the north. She would still have time to learn and grow, then. Or if she does play a major role before that, it could be as a bridge between the different noble factions (a lot of which have some kind of ties to her) or possibly as the first Stark to meet Dany. Probably a lot for the position of the Starks in the end will depend on their relationship to Dany, so the way such a meeting would go could be very important (Arya and Jon are also candidates for this though). And Sansa could also make an alliance on behalf of the Starks by getting married (of her own choice) after all, this could be important in itself.

You cannot fairly compare the two situations. Margaery has a major power base behind her, personal retainers, and is able to use the wealth, power and status she has to her advantage. Sansa has only herself. She has not loyal retainers, no wealth, no power, no status and no family to help.

Not too mention, Margaery is about three years older and tutored by her grandmother. And she knew what she was getting into, contrary to unprepared Sansa.

Dontos really gives her no reason to trust him, and yet she does with an exceptionally important secret. (You would think the Lady, and Ned incident would have made her wearier but not for Sansa). She could have befriended Margery or the Tyrells and talked with them, but she doesn't.

Trusting the Tyrells to that extent could also have been a mistake from her POV - they were nice enough, but Cersei was nice at first too. She had at least saved Dontos' live and he had shown gratitude (and promises of a way out), which would seems some reason to trust him (even if misplaced). He never gave the impression of wanting anything but help her.

While I agree that there were quite a number of people who played a role in Ned's death, I think she played a bigger role than most seem to see. In ACOC, when Tyrion is discussing the fiasco of Ned's death with Cersei, she tells Tyrion:

"Eddard Stark was plotting with Renly and he'd written to Lord Stannis, offering him the throne. We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father's plans...."

Cersei can be very unreliable as a narrator. In AFFC, she claimed that she had treated Sansa well, for example. She is being unreliable or just unknowing here too, as Ned never told Sansa "all of his plans". The only thing she knew was that herself, Arya and Jeyne were being send back to Winterfel and when that would happen. She knew nothing about Ned's and LF's little agreement, for example. Apparently, Cersei did not know about that either or else she was lying to Tyrion. LF must have kept his mouth shut about his "other agreement" when he sold the goldcloaks again, to Cersei this time.

And that last would have happened anyway (LF even told Ned he wasn't to be trusted), perhaps unless Ned had agreed with LF's plan for the regency over Joffrey. Once he refused that and also Renly's offer, his doom was certain. The only difference is that Sansa, Arya and co may have gotten away beforehand - if Varys or LF decided to not interfere in them leaving. I suppose at least Varys would have been well aware of Ned's plans in this matter.

[Diva]

She is far from stupid and she is only 12 (not 13 or 14). So she told her plans to Dontos, but she believes he is her friend. She has no friends, no one to talk to. I'd like to see any 12 year old girl in her shoes who is perfectly capable of not talking to anyone at all. The hell with Olenna's disappointment, it's not like she had Sansa's best interests in mind anyway, just the claim for Winterfell for her grandson. Plus, how boring would it be to see Sansa in Highgarden married to Willas?

she has no real reason to believe that Dontos is her friend. She only does in her placid unquestioning way because he seems to be helping her. The fact that she never really questions this - and who he is working with to achieve it - is really irritating.

she may not have trusted the Tyrells, but she told Dontos the plans in a fit of petulance because she felt he wasn't doing enough for her. She would have been better to hold her tongue and see who came up with a workable plan first. And yes, the Tyrells were just interested in a claim on Winterfell (which would have been amusing considering the locations of Highgarden and Winterfell), but *Sansa* was too stupid to realise that too. She even thinks they are talking about Loras at first, although he is in the Kingsguard.

I actually think Sansa married to Willas and trying to fight Bolton for the North would actually be endlessly amusing. Not to mention the Ironmen presence. Mace could have got his hands a bit dirty helping out for a change. And if the Others arrived while they were all up there? Perhaps they might have believed in nursery tales. As it is, I doubt anyone south of the Neck will ever see the Others and the wights, even if the winter is a long one.

[Jabberwocky]

Cersei can be very unreliable as a narrator. In AFFC, she claimed that she had treated Sansa well, for example. She is being unreliable or just unknowing here too, as Ned never told Sansa "all of his plans". The only thing she knew was that herself, Arya and Jeyne were being send back to Winterfel and when that would happen.

I agree Cersei can be a unreliable, but at the time we don't see that until AFFC. She seemed pretty normal until then, mean, vicious and bitchy, but not insane. She didn't really begin to lose it until Joffreys death. I can't see Ned telling Sansa his plans either, but who's to say she didn't overhear something. Look at what Arya overheard in the tunnels while chasing the cats. I pretty much felt she only told her about the leaving until a remark made believe it or not by Cersei in AFFC, which has made me question my thinking. She says about Teana Merriweather (I don't have book with me so don't have exact quote) something like "she hadn't been served a dish this sweet since Sansa".----Now how would Sansa telling her they were leaving be so special. It didn't gain her much. Arya disappeared , so she doesn't have her. Even with Sansa as a hostage it didn't do them much good, and eventually lead to her(Sansa) being used as a pawn in Joffrey's death. SO what was so sweet about those plans . I believe Sansa unwittingly filled Cersei in on more .And Cersei, unlike Arya and Ned, was able to put the pieces together.

[Wouter]

she has no real reason to believe that Dontos is her friend. She only does in her placid unquestioning way because he seems to be helping her. The fact that she never really questions this - and who he is working with to achieve it - is really irritating.

If he seems to be helping her, that's a relatively good reason to view him as a friend, especially when she has no one else to turn too and they are conspiring already. Remember how she mistrusted the original message to meet in the Godswood, thinking it a Lannister trap. After she had gone that far already, it makes kind of sense to trust him. Even if it was misplaced in hindsight.

As far as Sansa is considered, Dontos does have good reasons to help her; she saved his life after all.

[Seventh Pup]

If he seems to be helping her, that's a relatively good reason to view him as a friend, especially when she has no one else to turn too and they are conspiring already. Remember how she mistrusted the original message to meet in the Godswood, thinking it a Lannister trap. After she had gone that far already, it makes kind of sense to trust him. Even if it was misplaced in hindsight.

As far as Sansa is considered, Dontos does have good reasons to help her; she saved his life after all.

Sansa gives Dontos a reason to trust her, though she never requires such a reason from him. Sansa helped Cersei and it got her nothing but a dead father; why would she assume it would be otherwise for a drunken knight? It was stupid move, plain and simple. Perhaps she will start learning from them now, man did it take a lot to get that lesson in grained.