In defense of Sansa

[Daena the Defiant]

There goes that 'intentional insulation from reality' argument again, one that just doesn't fit with her environment. More than anything her parents do, it is her own perception of the world that has resulted in her naivety. She is a child of the North, yet is as soft as summer grass.

I call B/S on this line of argument.

As a classic example of Sansa's insulation -

When Ned is sitting on the Iron Throne for the absent Robert, and the day's business is all about rampaging brigands, murder and whatever, he spots Sansa is a balcony with Septa Mordane and is annoyed with that - his thoughts were "this was no proper business for a girl." He thinks it would be fitting for her to see a dispute over boundries and fences. Meanwhile, he trotted off with the even younger Bran to execute someone - do you for a minute think that Ned would have ever brought Sansa with him?

Thus, as revealed in Ned's own POV, he thinks that some aspects of their world are too harsh for his daughters to see, and would take pains to avoid having have them exposed to them.

This is odd, considering that Sansa, as a the daughter of great lords would probably be expected to marry off to an heir or high lord and may eventually be expected to rule in regency for minor children and/or absent husband, yet she was kept from learning how to deal with the realistic aspects of their world, She's not stupid, just improperly educated.

Therein lies the 'problem'. She is not a product of her environment or the of this world. Arya isn't unnaturally wise and prescient - she sees things for what they are... not for what she wishes. I'd hardly say that's either unusual or contrived that she sees that Joffrey's a vile and vindictive boy.

I find Arya to be a ludicrous character. I am also a primary school teacher who deals with children around Arya's age, some of whom are from horrible households. Arya is too wise and knowing and practical thinking for an eight year old. That's not even including her wealthy and pampered upbringing.

The part where Arya, having KILLED someone then rifles through her possessions to pack - needs a warm cloak and extra underwear, and a silver bracelet that she could sell - I find simply unbelievable. There is no way an eight year old, particularly one who has probably never even handled money, would think to start selling her possessions for money.

[redxavier]

When Ned is sitting on the Iron Throne for the absent Robert, and the day's business is all about rampaging brigands, murder and whatever, he spots Sansa is a balcony with Septa Mordane and is annoyed with that - his thoughts were "this was no proper business for a girl." He thinks it would be fitting for her to see a dispute over boundries and fences. Meanwhile, he trotted off with the even younger Bran to execute someone - do you for a minute think that Ned would have ever brought Sansa with him?

Thus, as revealed in Ned's own POV, he thinks that some aspects of their world are too harsh for his daughters to see, and would take pains to avoid having have them exposed to them.

I was aware of this, yet it's only one instance and hardly a solid basis to suggest her nurture has been one of shelter and insulation. Furthermore, I believe the example shows more Ned's general attitude towards girls in general than this daughter. He wishes to shelter them not from the realities of the world, but its extreme incidents of brutality. There's a crucial distinction. To broaden the concept of Ned's protection in this instance to encompass the reality of Westerosi life in general seems inappropriate.

It is incontestable that Sansa has been brought up a lady, Septa Mordane is clearly a great influence on her manner. Yet to expand that to say Sansa was sheltered is going too far. I believe there was a willing naivety on Sansa's part - and that she believed in songs over reality because that was what she wanted. Granted there's some fault of upbringing in that she was perhaps too tutored by Mordane (as opposed to someone practical like Luwin)

I find Arya to be a ludicrous character. I am also a primary school teacher who deals with children around Arya's age, some of whom are from horrible households. Arya is too wise and knowing and practical thinking for an eight year old. That's not even including her wealthy and pampered upbringing.

The part where Arya, having KILLED someone then rifles through her possessions to pack - needs a warm cloak and extra underwear, and a silver bracelet that she could sell - I find simply unbelievable. There is no way an eight year old, particularly one who has probably never even handled money, would think to start selling her possessions for money.

I think it's misleading to associate these characters with children of today. Growing up in a horrible household doesn't necessarily result in advanced maturity, there are likely a great diversity of factors in influencing such an outcome. It does sound like a lame argument I know, but these were different times. In a society where kids worked in the household as soon as they were able, I also think it's unreasonable to suggest a child was aware of monetary value.

And yet, Arya is hardly wise and knowing! She is unable to understand the conversation between Illyrio and Varys and relay its vital information to her father. She makes mistakes on the road with Gendry and Hotpie, and her POVs are filled with silly thoughts. The crucal difference between her and Sansa is that she has more worldly and practical knowledge.

[CelticBrennus]

Let's not forget that in King's Landing, when Ned stands up to Robert about Dany, Robert still goes ahead with his plans to murder Dany and her unborn child.

One was a case of a wild animal kept as a pet attacking the Crown Prince, and the other was assassinating a person bent on invading and conquering Westeros with an army of bloodthirsty slaving reavers. Yeah, they are exactly the same sort of situation.

[oba]

One was a case of a wild animal kept as a pet attacking the Crown Prince, and the other was assassinating a person bent on invading and conquering Westeros with an army of bloodthirsty slaving reavers. Yeah, they are exactly the same sort of situation.

Well, sarcasm duly noted , but my point was that Ned tried in both situations to change Robert's mind, and in neither instance did Robert do so. Both times, Ned thought that Robert failed to act like the man Ned thought he remembered from years past. Please don't read too much more into it than that.

[ina]

I find Arya to be a ludicrous character. I am also a primary school teacher who deals with children around Arya's age, some of whom are from horrible households. Arya is too wise and knowing and practical thinking for an eight year old. That's not even including her wealthy and pampered upbringing.

Every person's different, and besides, it's a harsh generalization to say that Arya's had a "wealthy and pampered upbringing". I don't think she had too many restrictions besides having to deal with the septa, and she would hang out with the village children, speak with veterans or freeriders, ect. Remember the people Sansa credited Arya with liking to speak to? It seems that she spent most of her time with people who are practical.

[Daena the Defiant]

Every person's different, and besides, it's a harsh generalization to say that Arya's had a "wealthy and pampered upbringing". I don't think she had too many restrictions besides having to deal with the septa, and she would hang out with the village children, speak with veterans or freeriders, ect. Remember the people Sansa credited Arya with liking to speak to? It seems that she spent most of her time with people who are practical.

And she had to worry about her next meal, or do any sort of labor, spin flax, milk goats or weave baskets? Did she ever go hungry or want for warm clothing or firewood?

[ina]

And she had to worry about her next meal, or do any sort of labor, spin flax, milk goats or weave baskets? Did she ever go hungry or want for warm clothing or firewood?

The way I see it, there's a difference between being provided for and being pampered.

[Child of the Forest]

I find Arya to be a ludicrous character. I am also a primary school teacher who deals with children around Arya's age, some of whom are from horrible households. Arya is too wise and knowing and practical thinking for an eight year old. That's not even including her wealthy and pampered upbringing.

The part where Arya, having KILLED someone then rifles through her possessions to pack - needs a warm cloak and extra underwear, and a silver bracelet that she could sell - I find simply unbelievable. There is no way an eight year old, particularly one who has probably never even handled money, would think to start selling her possessions for money.

This was one of the criticisms leveled against Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card - the critics said that no child that age was that mature. And the author was flooded with letters from people thanking him for portraying children like themselves had been, instead of the way the adults around them saw them as having so much less going on in their hearts and minds.

Your eight year olds have (we can hope) not grown up with the expectation that they will be expected to kill people face to face someday soon, and surrounded by older kids training to do just that. (Yes that's just the boys, generally, but Arya *is* a tomboy.) We live in an insulated society when it comes to some things (though not in others, but that's another thread on another forum). Projecting what is realistic based on your students, or even on how you were at eight, doesn't mean a whole lot when it comes to deciding what's realistic. I don't think my children will be like that at eight, but Arya is 1) an exceptional child and 2) closer to the Wild Boy in the Road Warrior in outlook than a 21st century middle-class schoolchild.

[Daena the Defiant]

The way I see it, there's a difference between being provided for and being pampered.

In a medieval, feudal context?

Your eight year olds have (we can hope) not grown up with the expectation that they will be expected to kill people face to face someday soon, and surrounded by older kids training to do just that. (Yes that's just the boys, generally, but Arya *is* a tomboy.) We live in an insulated society when it comes to some things (though not in others, but that's another thread on another forum). Projecting what is realistic based on your students, or even on how you were at eight, doesn't mean a whole lot when it comes to deciding what's realistic. I don't think my children will be like that at eight, but Arya is 1) an exceptional child and 2) closer to the Wild Boy in the Road Warrior in outlook than a 21st century middle-class schoolchild.

Basically, I teach in an inner city neighborhood, where it is not uncomon for my kids to have had siblings murdered, fathers and older brothers jailed, and other older siblings running with some pretty fucked up gangs.

I would directly correlate their primeval lifestyles to ruff-n-tumble westeros. At the same time, despite living amongst horrifying circumstances, children still want to be children. Arya is simply too worldly and precocious for her class and age. IMHO. I would suggest that there is no average "21st century middle-class schoolchild." There are disgustingly bleak contrasts bewteen what some midde class children experience and others. I see kids living in urban warzones, with gunshots and sirens as their lullabies, and met 12 year olds with a stunted expectation of life - but still, none of them think and plan as strategically as Arya does at her age, especially having the feudal world at her feet.

[Child of the Forest]

Basically, I teach in an inner city neighborhood, where it is not uncomon for my kids to have had siblings murdered, fathers and older brothers jailed, and other older siblings running with some pretty fucked up gangs.

I would directly correlate their primeval lifestyles to ruff-n-tumble westeros. At the same time, despite living amongst horrifying circumstances, children still want to be children. Arya is simply too worldly and precocious for her class and age. IMHO. I would suggest that there is no average "21st century middle-class schoolchild." There are disgustingly bleak contrasts bewteen what some midde class children experience and others. I see kids living in urban warzones, with gunshots and sirens as their lullabies, and met 12 year olds with a stunted expectation of life - but still, none of them think and plan as strategically as Arya does at her age, especially having the feudal world at her feet.

Certainly the parallel would be slightly greater with inner-city than with nice suburban, but it's still a very different day and age than the medieval world. Your kids are surrounded by violence and poverty. Arya is being raised by a lord. Remember that rather than our modern romanticization of childhood, children then were expected to be pushed toward adulthood at a much faster pace - childhood is something to rise above, not to look back at wistfully as the easy part of life. That means she's not being spoiled the way a modern rich kid would be, but rather pushed to learn a greater responsibility than a poor child would be expected to learn.

Even the "spoiled" Joffrey has likely had less of a modern "childhood" than anyone you or I will ever know. Notice also that other young characters take on great responsibility relative to modern life - Robb and Dany are obvious, but also Margaery pops to mind as being savvy at court compared to what I'd guess most teenagers could pull off nowadays. I just don't see any reason to pick out Arya as "ludicrous" in her abilities. It just takes a bit of historical perspective.

Clearly she's still an exceptional child in some ways - partly due to the unusual training from Syrio which imparts some mental discipline most kids don't get.

[ina]

In a medieval, feudal context?

In any context, really. But since you bring it up, I do believe that there's a difference between modern settings and the setting in the book which makes your comparison less applicable.

And being 'worldly' isn't directly proportional to the amount of suffering in a person's life, though I'd hardly call Arya worldly. Psycologically, she's pretty immature in the way she deals with situations. But that practicality that you see in her is explained by the fact that Arya remembers what people tell her, like how she remembers what Syrio tells her (and she does blunder the first couple of time). So it's probable that someone who does need some form of survival skills (since that seems to be the type of person she likes to talk to) might have at some point told her some of the practical knowledge she uses. Some of it was probably even repeated. And that's a resource that's pretty rare. I don't think the children you know had that advantage.

But I think that where we differ is in the opinion of where this strategic thinking comes from. You seem to think it comes from being in difficult situations, and I think it comes from either experiences where you make a mistake or benefiting from the experience of others. From the influence of people who already do think that way.

[Errant Bard]

But I think that where we differ is in the opinion of where this strategic thinking comes from. You seem to think it comes from being in difficult situations, and I think it comes from either experiences where you make a mistake or benefiting from the experience of others.

Ir comes from being a main character in an epic story, both as a cause or a consequence, depending on the level you judge the affair:

-At the level of the author, Arya has to survive through everything that is thrown at her, and in order to spare her, GRRM's plot device (without negative connotation) was to give her an almost surreal practicality and strategic thinking at times. Quite the opposite of what he used for Dany, where he dumbed down her difficulties to have her and the dragons survive and staya s a group.

-At the level of the story, of course you won't find many children like that even in warzone or shady suburbs, Arya is one of the heroes from an epic story, so she is better or different than almost everyone, she is extraordinary. Noone writes stories about childs who get murdered by the first bandit passing by.

[ina]

Arya is one of the heroes from an epic story, so she is better or different than almost everyone, she is extraordinary. Noone writes stories about childs who get murdered by the first bandit passing by.

Oh, she may be meant to become an extraordinary person, but extraordinary people have existed in real life too. It doesn't make her any more unbelievable as a person (or character), and it doesn't make the way she's written unrealistic.

[Daena the Defiant]

Ir comes from being a main character in an epic story, both as a cause or a consequence, depending on the level you judge the affair:

-At the level of the author, Arya has to survive through everything that is thrown at her, and in order to spare her, GRRM's plot device (without negative connotation) was to give her an almost surreal practicality and strategic thinking at times. Quite the opposite of what he used for Dany, where he dumbed down her difficulties to have her and the dragons survive and staya s a group.

-At the level of the story, of course you won't find many children like that even in warzone or shady suburbs, Arya is one of the heroes from an epic story, so she is better or different than almost everyone, she is extraordinary. Noone writes stories about childs who get murdered by the first bandit passing by.

The thrust of my argument is basically this:

a) yes, Arya is exceptional, as she's a heroine and a spunky urchin, etc because it's GRRM's chosen narrative device but she does have "an almost surreal practicality and strategic thinking at times."

If you look at it, these don't automatically flow from one another. GRRM has made his authorial choice to portray Arya as he has, and send her on her adventures - which I can except as this is a work of fiction.

However, I simply don't understand people who think that how she has been portrayed is in any way a natural or realistic human being, even despite her upbringing as a nobly-born daughter of the lord of a castle who hangs around with the artisan class (so therefore she can be practical) or tomboy who was on the periphery of men learning and discussing military science and tactics (therefore she can think and plan tactically) or a little girl who has seen horrific and emotionally scarring violence (therefore she can make sang froid decisions to kill when she needs to).

She's a character that has some interesting exploits, but she's not a character that I feel rings particularly true to human nature. IMHO.

[Errant Bard]

However, I simply don't understand people who think that how she has been portrayed is in any way a natural or realistic human being

I'm not saying that she's entirely realisticaly written, or that all her reactions are natural, I'm just saying that GRRM uses, like any other author, plot devices to make his heroes survive, and there needs to be a suspension of disbelief when reading about the minor boosts these characters are given, since it's part of them by design, they are created to be heroes, not to be copies of real children... It works the same way when it comes to warging or superhuman knights for me, it's just here to bolster the story impact.

For all it's worth, when I get too analytical I think of some of the songs and chronicles from middle ages, that depicted real people and events yet were not stingy with exageration and false truth: modern fantasy or real history, it comes down to the same storytelling tricks, but if you manage to let go of the minor obvious flaws in the characterization, it makes for a good story that can be almost true.

[Altherion]

a) yes, Arya is exceptional, as she's a heroine and a spunky urchin, etc because it's GRRM's chosen narrative device but she does have "an almost surreal practicality and strategic thinking at times."

Maybe once or twice, but extremely rarely. Most of the time her strategic and tactical thinking is that of a child. An extremely smart child, but a child nevertheless.

When Gendry gets captured by Gregor's men, her plan is to sneak in there, kill one guard and have Hot Pie kill the other. Does that strike you as something an adult would think? Later on, this is repeated with the Hound at the Twins -- except that there it is downright insane: "Hey Sandor, it's you and me against everyone in the castle. Now let's get in there and rescue Mother!" Her escape to Riverrun is similar -- she knows where she is going but she doesn't know the way.

[Daena the Defiant]

Certainly the parallel would be slightly greater with inner-city than with nice suburban, but it's still a very different day and age than the medieval world. Your kids are surrounded by violence and poverty. Arya is being raised by a lord.

Just so.

That's my point. People (often) say that Arya's wordliness and precociousness stem from the fact that she's been messed with by life, seen and been forced to do things that are beyond the ken of most children, irrespective of her noble upbringing. I think that falls flat.

For example, had Arya been the daughter of a whore and lived in Flea Bottom, I would have no problem ascribing do her more of her feral survival instincts (but not all).

Remember that rather than our modern romanticization of childhood, children then were expected to be pushed toward adulthood at a much faster pace - childhood is something to rise above, not to look back at wistfully as the easy part of life. That means she's not being spoiled the way a modern rich kid would be, but rather pushed to learn a greater responsibility than a poor child would be expected to learn.

And yet they never required the same "pushing to learn a greater responsibility" of her sister? I don't dispute the fact that *all* of the children in the series have a greater understanding of the "coarseness" of life - they have seen naked adult women and men, have watched sex acts, all aware of the fact that meat is a butchered animal, etc..

I just don't see how that correlates to a nine year old child being able to kill a man in cold blood *then* not even think about it, but still have the presence of mind to prioritize her possessions, and then come up with an escape plan from a fortified castle - this is all still when she was Lady Arya Stark, not the disenfrachised wandering waif that she became later.

I'm not saying that she's entirely realisticaly written, or that all her reactions are natural, I'm just saying that GRRM uses, like any other author, plot devices to make his heroes survive, and there needs to be a suspension of disbelief when reading about the minor boosts these characters are given, since it's part of them by design, they are created to be heroes, not to be copies of real children... It works the same way when it comes to warging or superhuman knights for me, it's just here to bolster the story impact.

FWIW, I am in almost complete accord with your position. I can shut off my higher analyses and enjoy the ride, but it just peeves me to see people try and explain certain aspects away - i.e. Arya and her "maturity."

[Child of the Forest]

Just so.

That's my point. People (often) say that Arya's wordliness and precociousness stem from the fact that she's been messed with by life, seen and been forced to do things that are beyond the ken of most children, irrespective of her noble upbringing. I think that falls flat.

For example, had Arya been the daughter of a whore and lived in Flea Bottom, I would have no problem ascribing do her more of her feral survival instincts (but not all).

Not "just so". If others are arguing that her abilities all come from her being downtrodden later on, then they're wrong, just as it would be wrong for you to look at your inner city classroom as a good model for what anyone, rich or poor, in medieval times might be like.

But that wasn't *my* argument at all.

And yet they never required the same "pushing to learn a greater responsibility" of her sister? I don't dispute the fact that *all* of the children in the series have a greater understanding of the "coarseness" of life - they have seen naked adult women and men, have watched sex acts, all aware of the fact that meat is a butchered animal, etc..

I just don't see how that correlates to a nine year old child being able to kill a man in cold blood *then* not even think about it, but still have the presence of mind to prioritize her possessions, and then come up with an escape plan from a fortified castle - this is all still when she was Lady Arya Stark, not the disenfrachised wandering waif that she became later.

The coarseness of life is a factor, yes, and being raised by a lord while surrounded by soldiers and such is a factor, and her running around in the streets and sewers before this happened is a part of it, yes, and her mental discipline training by Syrio is part of it. Any one factor would not be enough. All of them applied to an average child would not be enough. Sure. I'm not arguing otherwise.

Yes, Arya would have to be an exceptional child to survive this long, especially with the mistakes she makes more often than not, as another poster points out. You'd have to be naive to think "yeah, well, any kid like her in her situation could do that." Put 1000 of young kids like your students in her position, maybe all 1000 of them are dead. Put 1000 medieval intelligent young lord's children in her position, maybe 999 of them are dead, and this one is the one who made it. That doesn't seem so wildly unrealistic to me. Improbable, sure, but this is fiction, and you expect the improbable, the unusual, or you'd be reading the newspaper instead of this series or this board.

But you seem to be saying that it's impossible for *any* child to pull it off - try a million kids, no matter from where or when, and they all have no chance. In your original post, you specifically based your judgement of what a child is capable of on your own classroom of inner city kids, and you say that her character is completely unrealistic according to your view of "human nature". I just think that's too limited a basis for a full view of the range of possibilities. I'm not trying to "explain away" anything, but I apparently have a different view of what's possible.

And as I said in my earlier post, adults habitually assign to children less than their true abilities, and maybe that's what's gotten me so het up on this thread. One of your kids just might have more capability to handle a situation like that than you'll hopefully ever have occasion to discover.

Off my soapbox now...

[Arianne of Sunspear]

But that wasn't *my* argument at all.

The coarseness of life is a factor, yes, and being raised by a lord while surrounded by soldiers and such is a factor, and her running around in the streets and sewers before this happened is a part of it, yes, and her mental discipline training by Syrio is part of it. Any one factor would not be enough. All of them applied to an average child would not be enough. Sure. I'm not arguing otherwise.

I don't think that Daeana was specifically targeting you, but she did seem to countering the "Arya Apologists" that are prevalent on this board, and were on the old board before the "Great Migration" here (i didn't bother restoring my account here, but was lrking for a while....) I also would question the basis for Arya's exceptionalism: the best solution is that she is sui generis, a wunderkind by basis of authorial fiat.

But you seem to be saying that it's impossible for *any* child to pull it off - try a million kids, no matter from where or when, and they all have no chance. In your original post, you specifically based your judgement of what a child is capable of on your own classroom of inner city kids, and you say that her character is completely unrealistic according to your view of "human nature". I just think that's too limited a basis for a full view of the range of possibilities. I'm not trying to "explain away" anything, but I apparently have a different view of what's possible.

And as I said in my earlier post, adults habitually assign to children less than their true abilities, and maybe that's what's gotten me so het up on this thread. One of your kids just might have more capability to handle a situation like that than you'll hopefully ever have occasion to discover.

Off my soapbox now...

Well, I am also a primary school teacher and I more or less agree Daeana. Although I teach in, I assume, a markedly better district than Daeana's, I did have to, you know, become educated in child psychology and development in order to get my license. I would concur with Daeana that with everything we know about Arya, she is simply a truly unrealistic child. I *suppose* you can say that she is a prodigy, 1 in 1,000,000, who can manifest her cognitive and problem solving skills at such an early age but that makes her very exceptional indeed, which seems to be the point.

She's execptional because GRRM made her so.

[Altherion]

I would concur with Daeana that with everything we know about Arya, she is simply a truly unrealistic child. I *suppose* you can say that she is a prodigy, 1 in 1,000,000, who can manifest her cognitive and problem solving skills at such an early age but that makes her very exceptional indeed, which seems to be the point.

Can you say what exactly is it that makes you think Arya is a one-in-a-million child? She is certainly far above ordinary, but I can't find any instances where her cognitive and problem solving skills are truly unbelievable.