Why Renly Rebelled?

[Batman]

Better king? of course he would be a better king than Stannis or any of the other contenders. He knows people and how to deal with them, he also will take action when it is necessary. Ie jumping the lannisters immediately rather than wait. He wanted to be king and he had an army just like the other 5 Kings. Lastly he did not rebel. Robert took the iron throne by force from the royals who had all the rights, and they had come through fire and blood. There is no "rightful" king or queen. The strongest,smartest, or sometimes luckiest will take that seat.

The realm was already in debt and the way Renly was spending in ACOK they would end up going a lot further into debt than 6 million. the Iron Bank probably would have had him removed.

[danm_999]

If it wasn't for the closest thing to Deus ex machina in ASOIAF then yes. In fact by that point it pretty much is deus ex machina, Renly needed to be got rid off so magic was suddenly brought to Westeros where it wasn't before.

You can't pay attention to the deus ex machina, and then ignore that Renly's situation was put into place precisely to deploy an Icarus style parable. He was written as grossly strong to make his fall all the more shocking to his enemies, otherwise Martin could have written his army as much smaller, and have him killed in a more mundane way.

Popular uprising? And Renly seems convinced that he'd be the best King sincerely. Stannis would cause loads of rebellions with his attitude and harsh punishments, Joffrey had already caused a rebellion after Renly fled Kings Landing. Renly rightly decided he was the best King.

Well, we'll never know that, but I, and lots of other people in this thread, have put forward the opinion he would have made a terrible king.

All the major houses?

It was 4 (Arryn, Baratheon, Stark, Tully) of them that rose up. Besides several fairly powerful houses still fought for Aerys such as the Tarly's and Connington's fought for the Targaryens.

And the Lannisters of course, despite being latecomers. So yes, apart from the Tyrells and Martells, all the major houses fought against the Targaryens.

[danm_999]

No its not that he would have won if not for his enemies. He would have won if not for an up until that point completely unknown factor that is literally a deus ex machina.

I put this in my reply to Awesome Oberyn Martell; Renly was deliberately written as grossly strong to make his fall shocking.

Except Renly doesn't trust Petyr, and isn't going to let him and his mini army of goldcloaks into the red keep.

He's not going to have a choice honestly.

He ran because Ned refused to support him and so went to go get an army.

Which indicates he knew that he couldn't oppose the Goldcloaks.

He needed Ned's help to seize Joff and his siblings.

Not all these goldcloaks are crooks who do anything for money and how many are willing to take the order of attack the well defended royal keep?

How did Littlefinger get them to do it in the first place? Bribed Janos Slynt.

Its the Legally declared Lord Protector of the Realm and the King's brother protecting the King against the traitor queen who is refusing to step down from power. Its an easy thing to spin.

You're not going to get to do that because the Gold Cloaks are going to arrest before they arrest the Queen.

Lets look at the Kingdoms. The Stormlands are with him,

Not if he is in the Black Cells.

the Reach is with him,

See above.

the North is with him.

They're with Ned Stark actually.

The Vale and Dorne are going to stay neutral no matter what. The Riverlands are currently being ravaged by the Lannisters and under siege in Riverrun. I doubt they are going to help the Lannisters. And the Greyjoys, well they don't give a shit about Joff.

Which means they're all neutral to Renly.

[Milcov]

You can't pay attention to the deus ex machina, and then ignore that Renly's situation was put into place precisely to deploy an Icarus style parable. He was written as grossly strong to make his fall all the more shocking to his enemies, otherwise Martin could have written his army as much smaller, and have him killed in a more mundane way.

Hardly the same. Renly was powerful because of the Tyrell support, and the Tyrell strength isn't a problem for the plot as they prove vital later on and Renly losing would hardly have been a massive shock in the grand scheme, it's just the manner of his demise.

Well, we'll never know that, but I, and lots of other people in this thread, have put forward the opinion he would have made a terrible king.

I disagree but this isn't the thread for that.

And the Lannisters of course, despite being latecomers. So yes, apart from the Tyrells and Martells, all the major houses fought against the Targaryens.

The Lannisters hardly count, they came in the end and sacked a defenceless city to show they weren't favouring the Targaryens. You forgot the Greyjoys who didn't fight IIRC. So it was 4 vs 3 with 2 abstainers.

[danm_999]

Hardly the same. Renly was powerful because of the Tyrell support, and the Tyrell strength isn't a problem for the plot as they prove vital later on and Renly losing would hardly have been a massive shock in the grand scheme, it's just the manner of his demise.

Shadow babies aren't a problem for the plot either, since you can't use them flippantly, they drain your life force.

And as I said, the manner of his demise if the whole point. You're engineered into thinking Renly's a real player, that it's very unlikely he can lose or be stopped. Martin creates the atmosphere to sustain that belief, then whacks you in the stomach.

So asking "what if Renly hadn't been killed by a shadow baby" is irrelevant, because his power and his inevitable demise and bound together. If he's not going to die, he wouldn't have been written that powerful.

The Lannisters hardly count, they came in the end and sacked a defenceless city to show they weren't favouring the Targaryens. You forgot the Greyjoys who didn't fight IIRC. So it was 4 vs 3 with 2 abstainers.

Well they do count, they fought for Robert, even if it was late.

Are the Greyjoys a major house? I suppose they are actually.

[Talleyrand]

He's not going to have a choice honestly.... Which indicates he knew that he couldn't oppose the Goldcloaks.

He does the entire reason he left and Ned went to the Goldcloaks is because both Ned and Renly needed each others men to take care of the Lannister guards.

How did Littlefinger get them to do it in the first place? Bribed Janos Slynt.

Janos Slynt only brought a hundred or so into the Red Keep. He's not going to have enough to bribe all of them and neither will all be willing.

You're not going to get to do that because the Gold Cloaks are going to arrest before they arrest the Queen.

How are they going to do that? Renly and Ned's men close the gates to the Red Keep, they're not getting in.

They're with Ned Stark actually.

Except in this hyopthetical situation Ned and Renly are allies, so by extension they are with using Joff as a puppet.

Which means they're all neutral to Renly.

Which means nothing. Renly doesn't need their support to win, the Lannisters do. They are the ones who are hopelessly outnumbered not him.

Above all you are missing the main point with the Goldcloak situation. Petyr sides with the Lannisters because Ned is going to bring in Stannis, which means ruin for him. Petyr is in favour of seizing Joffrey and using him as a puppet so why would he hire the goldcloaks to take on Ned?

[another bastard]

Because he really thought he would make a better king than Joffrey or Stannis (who was holed up on Dragonstone and refusing any communication anyway) and he had the largest army behind him. There's no indication that he really thought it through any more than that (e.g. what it meant for long term succession issues).

And yes, he would have won and become king without the impossible to anticipate shadow baby. After the Lannisters were crushed, he and Robb Stark would have had to make some sort of deal, since I doubt that either one (or their supporters) really wanted to fight the other. And that would have been a completely different story, so Renly had to be taken out.

Hence the shadow baby.

[Milcov]

Shadow babies aren't a problem for the plot either, since you can't use them flippantly, they drain your life force.

And as I said, the manner of his demise if the whole point. You're engineered into thinking Renly's a real player, that it's very unlikely he can lose or be stopped. Martin creates the atmosphere to sustain that belief, then whacks you in the stomach.

So asking "what if Renly hadn't been killed by a shadow baby" is irrelevant, because his power and his inevitable demise and bound together. If he's not going to die, he wouldn't have been written that powerful.

The Shadowbabies were a total cop-out in my opinion. They've been used twice and it was to easily get rid of a serious figure in the war.

And Renly's power stems from the Tyrells, it's the combination of the strongest major house with another strong major house. The Tyrells power later tips the war in the Lannister's favour, so it's not implausible that Renly was that powerful.

Well they do count, they fought for Robert, even if it was late.

Are the Greyjoys a major house? I suppose they are actually.

They hardly joined the rebellion though. If the Freys don't count then nor do the Lannisters, they joined when it was all over.

[danm_999]

He does the entire reason he left and Ned went to the Goldcloaks is because both Ned and Renly needed each others men to take care of the Lannister guards.

Renly left because he saw that even with his 100 swords, it wasn't going to be enough to hold King's Landing.

Janos Slynt only brought a hundred or so into the Red Keep. He's not going to have enough to bribe all of them and neither will all be willing.

Because Janos Slynt knew Ned thought he was on there side. So he didn't need very many men to sudbue Ned and his few guards.

How are they going to do that? Renly and Ned's men close the gates to the Red Keep, they're not getting in.

When hundreds of Gold cloaks lock down the Red Keep to slaughter everybody inside people STILL get in and out (like Arya). 100 swords is not going to be able to keep out thousands of city guards.

Not to mention the headache in making sure not one of the hundreds of servants or nobles lets the guard in.

Except in this hyopthetical situation Ned and Renly are allies, so by extension they are with using Joff as a puppet.

And when, in the hypothetical Hear Us Roar began and we've been discussing, Renly declares himself King, all hell breaks lose with Northern support.

I realize you started responding on the second page, but the scenario I've been discussing has the initial premise that if Ned wasn't so stupid (ie sided with Renly) he'd have 4 Lannister hostages, King's Landing and be able to declare himself King. In this scenario, Ned and Renly cannot simultaneously use Joffrey as a puppet King.

Which means nothing. Renly doesn't need their support to win, the Lannisters do. They are the ones who are hopelessly outnumbered not him.

Yes, he does, if he wants to call himself King.

Above all you are missing the main point with the Goldcloak situation. Petyr sides with the Lannisters because Ned is going to bring in Stannis, which means ruin for him. Petyr is in favour of seizing Joffrey and using him as a puppet so why would he hire the goldcloaks to take on Ned?

Petyr doesn't want Stannis true, but he's never ever letting Renly take over either.

Because if Ned makes cause with Renly, Littlefinger's out. They don't trust each other. Littlefinger wants to control Joffrey, Littlefinger wants Cersei running around like a bull in a china shop, and Littlefinger wants to whisk Sansa Stark away to the Vale.

He can't do any of these things if Renly and Ned are running the show.

[danm_999]

The Shadowbabies were a total cop-out in my opinion. They've been used twice and it was to easily get rid of a serious figure in the war.

And Renly's power stems from the Tyrells, it's the combination of the strongest major house with another strong major house. The Tyrells power later tips the war in the Lannister's favour, so it's not implausible that Renly was that powerful.

Renly had the Tyrell's power because that's how the narrative made him strong.

They hardly joined the rebellion though. If the Freys don't count then nor do the Lannisters, they joined when it was all over.

They sacked King's Landing, killed Aerys and all the Targaryens who hadn't fled to Dragonstone. I'd say that's a pretty big contribution.

[jlk7e]

In the Great Houses, apart from Tyrell and Martell, loyalists were holdouts and pretty quickly swept aside. The major battles of the war; the Trident, the Bells, Ashford, Summerhall, were all against enemy houses, not Baratheon/Stark/Tully Bannermen. Taking Gulltown is barely a footnote.

The Battle of Summerhall was distinctly a battle against Baratheon bannermen. And the Darrys were certainly fighting at Rhaegar's side at the Trident.

[danm_999]

The Battle of Summerhall was distinctly a battle against Baratheon bannermen. And the Darrys were certainly fighting at Rhaegar's side at the Trident.

Yeah I was wrong about Summerhall. But The Trident was mainly Loyalist vs. Rebel factions.

[jlk7e]

The Shadowbabies were a total cop-out in my opinion. They've been used twice and it was to easily get rid of a serious figure in the war.

Getting rid of Renly might be a cop-out or deus ex machina, although I think the point was to show that Melisandre has real powers. Using a shadow to get rid of Cortnay Penrose distinctly was not. There didn't even have to be a Cortnay Penrose. It would have been totally plausible to just have the Castellan of Storm's End open the gates to Stannis after Renly's death. The shadow baby is obviously not just there for plot convenience, because it does not make the plot any more convenient.

[Milcov]

Renly had the Tyrell's power because that's how the narrative made him strong.

Yes and the Tyrells aren't like the shadow babies as we know of them beforehand. A marriage alliance is not the same as a shadow baby.

They sacked King's Landing, killed Aerys and all the Targaryens who hadn't fled to Dragonstone. I'd say that's a pretty big contribution.

It was over, the Tyrells had already surrendered before then. When the Lannisters joined only the Martells (with a good amount of troops gone on the Trident) were left. If they hadn't joined in they'd have been weakened in the post-war Westeros and that's all that mattered. They hardly joined the rebellion properly.

[Milcov]

Getting rid of Renly might be a cop-out or deus ex machina, although I think the point was to show that Melisandre has real powers. Using a shadow to get rid of Cortnay Penrose distinctly was not. There didn't even have to be a Cortnay Penrose. It would have been totally plausible to just have the Castellan of Storm's End open the gates to Stannis after Renly's death. The shadow baby is obviously not just there for plot convenience, because it does not make the plot any more convenient.

They are very convenient as they eliminate Renly with no legitimate effort. It was bad and is my least favourite bit of the books because it's what I'd expect in lesser writing, it's the lowest point of ASOIAF by far.

[jlk7e]

I think in assessing what Renly was doing, one has to remember that proclaiming himself king is neither his first choice nor his second choice of what to do.

His first choice is to get Robert to divorce Cersei and marry Margaery. This plan is vitiated by Robert's death.

His second choice, as Robert's dying, is to work with Ned Stark to seize the new king and oust Cersei and the Lannisters from power. This plan is screwed over by Ned's unwillingness to rouse scared children from their beds.

It's only after both those plans fail that Renly decides to proclaim himself. So why does he do that?

I think there's a couple of things here. First, Renly and the Lannisters hate each other. At this point, Joffrey (or Tommen) as king means Lannister domination, and that's bad for Renly. I would imagine that Renly also has a good sense of what a horrible little sociopathic shit Joffrey is. There's obviously little love lost there: he's the one who mocks Joffrey for getting his ass kicked by Arya. The second issue is that the Tyrells cannot support a King Stannis, because Stannis hates them. The Tyrells have been out in the cold for all of Robert's reign because of their support for the Targaryens; how much worse will it be with Stannis? So Joffrey is an unacceptable king for Renly, and Stannis is an unacceptable king for the Tyrells. That leaves Renly to proclaim himself - less than ideal, but the best solution under the circumstances, given that he doesn't want to break his alliance with the Tyrells.

[danm_999]

They are very convenient as they eliminate Renly with no legitimate effort. It was bad and is my least favourite bit of the books because it's what I'd expect in lesser writing, it's the lowest point of ASOIAF by far.

Would you have been happier if a Faceless Man killed him?

[jlk7e]

They are very convenient as they eliminate Renly with no legitimate effort. It was bad and is my least favourite bit of the books because it's what I'd expect in lesser writing, it's the lowest point of ASOIAF by far.

Arguably true for the first one - although I thought that was the whole point. Renly was all flash and no substance. What better way to kill him than a shadow? It's obviously a plot device, but I think it's one with important thematic resonances, and it helps establish Stannis and Melisandre's characters. But the second one isn't convenient at all - Martin had any number of ways to give Storm's End to Stannis without using a shadow baby.

[gougef]

Reposted from another thread:

Always felt the whole King Renly thing was like a bunch guys sitting around drinking on a Saturday night saying you know what would fun, lets make Renly king for sh*ts and giggles. Fun and games hence the "Knights of Summer".

[Talleyrand]

Renly left because he saw that even with his 100 swords, it wasn't going to be enough to hold King's Landing...Because Janos Slynt knew Ned thought he was on there side. So he didn't need very many men to sudbue Ned and his few guards.... .I realize you started responding on the second page, but the scenario I've been discussing has the initial premise that if Ned wasn't so stupid (ie sided with Renly) he'd have 4 Lannister hostages, King's Landing and be able to declare himself King. In this scenario, Ned and Renly cannot simultaneously use Joffrey as a puppet King.

.

He left because Ned turned him down so he went to marshal his forces. If in this hypothetical Renly has the 4 hostages then it means Ned had took him up on his offer, thus Ned has accepted the title of Lord Protector and Renly will act as "advisor" or be the hand of King. I doubt that the majority of the Goldcloaks have any loyalty to Janos so when he tells them to go attack their legal head of state who right now is in a well defended formidable holdout, they're not going to obey. In most likeliness they'll arrest Janos if ordered, especially if they hear Renly has ordered his Bannermen to bring troops into the city.

Yes, he does, if he wants to call himself King.

No he doesn't he already has the biggest army in the 7k. All he needs is them not to side against him during the war and then they'll support whoever won.

Petyr doesn't want Stannis true, but he's never ever letting Renly take over either.

Because if Ned makes cause with Renly, Littlefinger's out. They don't trust each other. Littlefinger wants to control Joffrey, Littlefinger wants Cersei running around like a bull in a china shop, and Littlefinger wants to whisk Sansa Stark away to the Vale.

He can't do any of these things if Renly and Ned are running the show.

Renly isn't Ned, he knows to strike first. He suggests striking before Robert is even dead. I wouldn't be surprised if he had Littlefinger taken care of at the get go.