Book Five and Hindsight.

[The Lost Lord]

The problem moving forward is Ill find it hard to believe she will just abandon Mereen now that shes spent so much time there, does anyone believe she'll just actually pick up stakes and leave?

See this is exactly what I mean when I say that ADWD is filled with subtle character development that most people missed. (Sorry if this statement offends you, Errant Bard.) Because it seems clear to me that this transformation in Dany has already occurred.

Overall Dany's ADWD arc is about one simple question: How great a value will she place on innocent life? Through her first seven chapters she tries her damnedest to protect innocent life in Meereen -- to make peace for her people so that no more of them will be killed. To avoid the collapse of Meereen into chaos and slaughter like Astapor, as would happen if she leaves. "A queen must put her people first," she keeps telling herself. Yet she faces the Harpy insurgency, which she cannot defeat by force. The only ways to beat the Harpy insurgency are (1) a political accommodation with the Meereense nobles, or (2) utter brutality to terrify them into submission, burning down neighborhoods, many more mass crucifixions, murdering children and so on. She's terrified with the possibility that she'll become a "butcher queen." This is the path urged by Daario, who represents violence and taking what one wants -- he recommends a "Red Wedding" to kill all the nobles. Dany's attraction to him signifies that some part of her is attracted to that path, but she has "chained her dragons" for the time being and refuses to do it.

So she makes a deal for peace. She gives up her sexual autonomy (sending away Daario), some of her power (sharing power with Hizdahr), some of the social reform goals she deeply believes in (slavery is restarted outside Meereen's walls), and even gives up Westeros for the time being. She tells herself that she will do the hard, unglamorous work of forging a durable peace for the people of Meereen, a project that may take years.

And as soon as she makes this deal, she regrets it. "I hate this… How did this happen, that I am drinking and smiling with men I'd sooner flay?" It turns out that political compromise and power-sharing make Dany miserable and she can't abide it. She immediately starts scheming in a Cersei-like way to break the peace by having Ben Plumm killed by his own men, or buying the Tattered Prince, or showing Quentyn the dragons. She cries and says "I was not crying. Why would I cry? I have my peace, I have my king, I have everything a queen might wish for." But then she falls asleep and dreams "queer, half-formed dreams of smoke and fire." She goes to the fighting pits and is disgusted at what she sees, the price of peace. And finally, she throws off her Meereenese garments and says she's had enough and she's leaving. Enough of peace. As soon as she comes to this conclusion, Drogon appears and Drogon breaks the peace. (It's very important that the peace is not broken by a Harpy or Yunkai betrayal. Dany herself comes to the conclusion that she hates it and Drogon appears right on cue to demolish it.)

In Dany's final chapter her transformation concludes. Throughout the book she has been haunted by Hazzea, the little girl Drogon killed in the first chapter -- but all of a sudden she can no longer remember Hazzea's name. She sadly concludes that she will have no children, only dragons. (This is Dany rationalizing the incredible loss of life that she will soon cause.) She sees Viserys telling her to be more violent. She concludes that "Meereen was not her home, and never would be… Meereen would always be the Harpy's city, and Daenerys could not be a harpy," and resolves to go to Westeros (She's concluded that she can't stick around any longer to stabilize Meereen, it might be messy but she's gotta get going.) She says she wanted to plant trees in Meereen, but now concludes that "Dragons plant no trees," and the last words she says are "Fire and blood." Which she will deliver very early in the next book.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

Maybe.I thought that AFFC was a the weaker book because it took a while for anything to happen imo. It was the only book where it felt like a chore to read. Even though i felt it wrapped up really nicely i was dissapointed. I thought ADWD was a better book because it felt like a lot more was happening. You had Aegon being revealed and his whole plan.,Bran finally getting to meet the children of the forrest, Jon getting murdered, Dany returning to the Dothraki and other big stuff. Though with all that happening i did feel a little dissapointed. Dany chapters were by and large boring, Tyrions were hit and miss and the two battles i'd been looking forward too never happened.

Maybe when we get the whole picture i'll like the books more.

[Popcorn Sutton]

That's what I think as well. It seems to me that common complaints of books four and five are that there's not much happening, but that's not the case at all. Dorne seeks allegiance with the Targaryens, the Lannisters lose their position of power, the Wall turns to disarray, Manderly works to bring power back to the North, Davos seeks the Stark's heir, Stannis marches on Winterfell, Tyrion reconciles himself and decides to live again, and I could go on and on. The chess pieces are being reset for round two, which is about to begin.

-"Dorne seeks allegiance with the Targaryens" : That failed, so it seems insignificant as of now.

-"Lannisters lose their position of power" : Ok

-"The Wall turns to disarray" : At the very end of the book (1 chapter)

-"Manderly works to bring power back to the North" : He killed some Freys. That and his meeting with Davos is really all we saw.

-"Davos seeks the stark heir" : In his last chapter this is what can be inferred

-"Stannis marches on Winterfell" : And gets stuck in the snow on his way there.

-"Tyrion reconciles with himself" : We've already seen him come into his own and start to realize his full potential. Was it really necessary to break his character down so he can go through that process again? I would argue that it really isn't except to help line up the timelines of the story.

I agree that this book will be appreciated more after it's successors have been read but I definitely see why people aren't in love with this one as much as the others. A lot of things are beginning to be set into motion but that's just the problem, they were only BEGINNING. All of the things you listed have no outcome that is finite at this point.

[skins7778]

See this is exactly what I mean when I say that ADWD is filled with subtle character development that most people missed. (Sorry if this statement offends you, Errant Bard.) Because it seems clear to me that this transformation in Dany has already occurred.

Overall Dany's ADWD arc is about one simple question: How great a value will she place on innocent life? Through her first seven chapters she tries her damnedest to protect innocent life in Meereen -- to make peace for her people so that no more of them will be killed. To avoid the collapse of Meereen into chaos and slaughter like Astapor, as would happen if she leaves. "A queen must put her people first," she keeps telling herself. Yet she faces the Harpy insurgency, which she cannot defeat by force. The only ways to beat the Harpy insurgency are (1) a political accommodation with the Meereense nobles, or (2) utter brutality to terrify them into submission, burning down neighborhoods, many more mass crucifixions, murdering children and so on. She's terrified with the possibility that she'll become a "butcher queen." This is the path urged by Daario, who represents violence and taking what one wants -- he recommends a "Red Wedding" to kill all the nobles. Dany's attraction to him signifies that some part of her is attracted to that path, but she has "chained her dragons" for the time being and refuses to do it.

So she makes a deal for peace. She gives up her sexual autonomy (sending away Daario), some of her power (sharing power with Hizdahr), some of the social reform goals she deeply believes in (slavery is restarted outside Meereen's walls), and even gives up Westeros for the time being. She tells herself that she will do the hard, unglamorous work of forging a durable peace for the people of Meereen, a project that may take years.

And as soon as she makes this deal, she regrets it. "I hate this… How did this happen, that I am drinking and smiling with men I'd sooner flay?" It turns out that political compromise and power-sharing make Dany miserable and she can't abide it. She immediately starts scheming in a Cersei-like way to break the peace by having Ben Plumm killed by his own men, or buying the Tattered Prince, or showing Quentyn the dragons. She cries and says "I was not crying. Why would I cry? I have my peace, I have my king, I have everything a queen might wish for." But then she falls asleep and dreams "queer, half-formed dreams of smoke and fire." She goes to the fighting pits and is disgusted at what she sees, the price of peace. And finally, she throws off her Meereenese garments and says she's had enough and she's leaving. Enough of peace. As soon as she comes to this conclusion, Drogon appears and Drogon breaks the peace. (It's very important that the peace is not broken by a Harpy or Yunkai betrayal. Dany herself comes to the conclusion that she hates it and Drogon appears right on cue to demolish it.)

In Dany's final chapter her transformation concludes. Throughout the book she has been haunted by Hazzea, the little girl Drogon killed in the first chapter -- but all of a sudden she can no longer remember Hazzea's name. She sadly concludes that she will have no children, only dragons. (This is Dany rationalizing the incredible loss of life that she will soon cause.) She sees Viserys telling her to be more violent. She concludes that "Meereen was not her home, and never would be… Meereen would always be the Harpy's city, and Daenerys could not be a harpy," and resolves to go to Westeros (She's concluded that she can't stick around any longer to stabilize Meereen, it might be messy but she's gotta get going.) She says she wanted to plant trees in Meereen, but now concludes that "Dragons plant no trees," and the last words she says are "Fire and blood." Which she will deliver very early in the next book.

I read the same thing and I took from that exactly what you wrote, but its one thing to think those things in your head or when your wandering alone sick and starving but will she follow through when she gets back and sees the devastation after the battle and her people dying from the pale mare?........ Im very skeptical.

[jjames36]

See this is exactly what I mean when I say that ADWD is filled with subtle character development that most people missed. (Sorry if this statement offends you, Errant Bard.)

I disliked Dance so strongly, Lost Lord, that I have stayed away from this forum since the week of the book's pulbication. I'm sick today and by extnesion bored. So I'm back. Your exchange with Errant Bard has sparked me enough to actually post something. Good on you!

First, let me say you are making a strong case that there were changes in the book's two primary protagonists. But I think you're minimizing what those who dislike this book dislike about it. I'll explain.

Because it seems clear to me that this transformation in Dany has already occurred.

Having read the post that follows this statement, I'll agree. It seems likely you have identified the direction Martin is taking this character. However, you call attention to the real issue a couple sentences later:

Through her first seven chapters she tries her damnedest to protect innocent life in Meereen ...

Wait. How many chapters was that? Seven. Seriously? Seven. And each of them is what? Between an average of 20 and 30 pages, making a total of 150-200 ish pages devoted to this character's story. Okay. That's a lot of pages. What happens in them? She grapples with the same political issues (the Meereenese insurgency), the same internal conflicts (should I go the route of destroyer? Or the route of mother) and the same emotional conflicts (should I sleep with that sellsword and brigand Daario, whom I barely like but still think is sexy in his bad boy way?).

And oh by the way, in those 150-200ish pages, the plot doesn't really advance either. She gets no closer to forging a true queenship in Meereen than she does to attempting conquer of Westeros. So we get somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 pages on one of the novel's favorite characters, and in those pages she doesn't change and the story doesn't advance. Yes, in her last two or three chapters her tale becomes interesting again, but it's a lot to ask your readers to trudge through 150-200ish pages with that little narrative or character development. The end result is that we readers are frustrated from plodding through seven chapters of repetition, and so by the time we get to the pay off, we're no longer as invested. And our loss of investment means the pay off, which otherwise would have been awesome, falls largely flat.

That problem is only furhter compounded by the meandering nature of Tyrion and Jorah's chapters, the pointlessness of Quentyn's 100ish page POV (to be sure, his death may have serious plot ramifications, but those same results would have happened if we had not been in his head), the lack of Merwyn, the slowness of Victarion's journey, the sudden emergence of another supposed Targaryan and the fact that Dany is no more connected to Westeros at the end of this book than she was at the start of it. So, yes, Dany changes in the ways you suggest, but the previous story in the East has frustrated us enough that the changes don't impact us the way they would have if this novel had been paced better.

Jon changes a lot, too.

Note: the above is not a quote, but rather a visual cue that I am switching to a different element of your argument.

First, I will say that I agree with Errant Bard-- the changes you observe in Jon do not feel like moments of character growth. They feel like contradictory moments of character regression, moments in which we see Jon behave exactly as he behaved earlier in the series. The only differences in the behavior now are external. His friends and mentors are not there to talk him down from his emotional reactions, and he now has real power, if not much authority.

But let's set that aside to consider what I think is the primary critical issue with Dance's Jon chapters. Namely, I think Jon in Dance contradicts the awesomeness of Jon in Storm. Let me explain. In Storm, we see Jon refuse Stannis' offer to become the Lord of Winterfell. We also see him accept his role as a leader, and we see him lead well while fighting the Wildlings before higher ranking members of the Watch (and Stannis) arrive. Through all of these events, we conclude that Jon has finally accepted his membership in the Watch. He is no longer a Stark.

He has, in other words, grown from a petulant teenager who cannot choose between his two inner desires, to a man and leader who has made his choice. Our expectation, then, is that Jon will be the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and that his internal conflicts will now be different from what they were in the previous installments of the series. We also have reason to conclude he will be a good Lord Commander, given how well he led the battle against the Wildlings.

And then Dance flips the script. Which would have been fine, even desirable, if it had been done well. But it wasn't. Throughout the previous three novels, Jon adapted to advice from many sources: his friends, the armorer, Maester Aemon, Mormont, Tyrion, Ygritte, and (to a lesser extent) his father. But at the very beginning of Dance, he is already listening to no one's counsel, including his friends'. He seeks advice and then ignores it. Every time. This is an unexplained shift in characterization. Yes, he always ignored people's advice at times (think Benjen's at the start of Game). But he also listened to advice some of the time (think when his friends stopped his attempt to desert). In Dance, he listens to no one, ever, from the very beginning. That's a fine change, if it's been built up. But the rapidity with which it happened means it was underdeveloped and we are left wondering why it has happened.

That trend continues. In the beginning of Dance, we see Jon making controversial decisions as the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. He allows the wildlings through the wall, beheads Slynt, forces Sam to Oldtown and so on. Throughout the book, his penchant for unilateral controversial decisions continues. Because all of his decisions are unilateral, and because he pretends he wants to build consensus, we begin to conclude he is a bad leader. (I know this is a point with which you disagree, but I assume Errant Bard and I are not the only people who believe it.) This is a contradiction from what we expected after reading Storm, when Jon valiantly led his troops in battle. And it is another underdeveloped contradiction, at that. Why was he so good in one book? And so bad in another?

When Jon finally marries a Karstark to a Wildling, we have no choice but to admit that he never really committed to the Watch. But wait a minute. That was the whole purpose of his journey throughout the first three books, wasn't it? That he was now a watchmen, that he now accepted he could not be the noble northern Stark who would save the realm from chaos. We were done with the battle between his dueling natures. Only, we weren't. And it actually went the exact opposite direction than Martin laid out in previous editions of the series. Contradiction defined.

Again, the shift could have worked, if it had been developed more carefully. Under other circumstances, I might have liked the story we got more than seeing Jon become a heroic Lord Commander. But many readers believe the shift was developed badly, and I believe that is the real reason they dislike Jon's chapters. In the end, then, I think the argument really comes to down to this point: Jon might have changed in Dance as you suggest he did, Lost Lord, but because the changes were not properly built up, I find them unsatisfying.

If you will indulge me for a couple more paragraphs, I want to offer a theory as to why Jon's changes in Dance weren't developed well.

In my view, the fundamental issue with Jon's chapters in Dance is that the narrative was written plot first, but the result demanded character first treatment. Let me explain. As Errant Bard observed, everything in Jon's chapters is about external issues forcing Jon to act. He stops reflecting on his decisions (something he did almost too often in the previous novels), stops taking true counsel from anyone, and starts acting without much introspection. In this way, the events in the North progress rapidly but we are not given a real look into Jon's psyche. (The definition of plot first writing.)

And then Jon moves in the opposite direction than he appeared to be moving in the previous novel. Only this time, because we are not given a real look into his psyche, we are taken aback by the change. Had Martin deleted the pointless Quentyn POV, he could have slowed down Jon's chapters just a little so as to write them character first. The same things could have happened, but in character first writing, we would have seen more of Jon's decision making process, and then we would have better understood how he went from the Jon who refuses Lordship of Winterfell, to the Jon who marries a Karstark to a wildling and then decides to lead a wildling army.

In other words, because Jon's scenes were plot based instead of character based, we have to follow him from a distance as he makes his journey through the events of Dance. And so, to many of us, his transformation feels like a late (and mostly unexplained) shift in characterization, the end result of which reopens and contradicts a journey Martin so beautifully wrote in previous novels.

j

[Bran the Weirwood]

All of the development seemed to make sense to me. Dany and much of the east was boring, but the writer finally tied himself out of the knot. When you publish Storm of Swords with the intention of taking a 5 year break, after which Dany has already stated she intends to stay in Meereen, then you have to stay in Meereen. It sucks, but I believe the crappy Quentyn chapters (which are the only ones that really, really didn't need to be POV), the Selmy chapters, the Victarion chapters and the Tyrion chapters were all his way of pulling his most important characters out of the knots he tied. I'm not saying George doesn't deserve some blame for getting into those knots, or that he couldn't have done a better job getting out of them, but I can see how a good author could have a little trouble with this.

So almost nothing interesting happened in the Dany chapters, fine, but she did develop and find a perfectly valid reason to leave, which will hopefully make her story more interesting in the next novel. She did develop a more necessarily violent outlook at the end as well, where she realizes that she cannot be the savior of the world, and solve every problem. She has come to terms with the fact that for her to be queen, innocent people have to die.

As for Jon, he became an adult. He quit feeling so damn pitious all the time. And yes, he was reconciled to remain with the Watch at the end of aSoS, and he still seemed to be at the end of this novel. At the end of aSoS, Jon believes his entire family to be dead. He is torn between reviving the Stark name or remaining with The Watch, which is a tough decision (never seeking vengance on those who murdered your entire family), but he chooses the Watch. In Dance, he is faced with the possibility that some of his family still survives (his favorite family member, in fact). Still remaining Jon, he breaks some of his vows. It isn't like he develops and becomes a totally different person with totally different values. Still, part of his reasoning for meeting Stannis is to not endanger the Watch. He never really plans of taking Winterfell (although it is implied that he is now open to changing his mind), he just doesn't want his brothers to die for his mistakes, and cannot stand the idea of Bolton's flaying the North for fun. So he breaks a lot of vows, but isn't ready to abandon his post. It is an important distinction to make.

As to him not listening to advice, did you miss entire chapters or something? He is constantly complaining about how bad his advisors are, even before he starts to become increasingly arrogant. He doesn't listen to advice because his advisors are stubborn idiots, and I say that objectively and not through Jon's perspective. He needed an Aemon or a Sam, and he only had Marsh and Edd.

[jjames36]

As to him not listening to advice, did you miss entire chapters or something? He is constantly complaining about how bad his advisors are, even before he starts to become increasingly arrogant. He doesn't listen to advice because his advisors are stubborn idiots, and I say that objectively and not through Jon's perspective. He needed an Aemon or a Sam, and he only had Marsh and Edd.

I would contend you are taking Jon's point of view, actually. Quite unabashedly.

Jon complains about his advisors being stubborn, yes. But look at the advice he received. An objective observer can easily see why his advisors suggest what they do. They tell him to keep the wildlings out, because they have good reason to be scared of the wildlings. They tell him not to marry the Karstark girl to a wildling, because the Watch is supposed to stay out of the political affairs of the realm. They tell him to keep rangers behind the wall, because every ranger they send out dies, and they are going to need all the man power they can get later. They tell him not to send the island rescue mission because it is hopeless. And so forth. All of their advice has good cause, especially when they tell him not to march out of the north with an army of wildlings behind him. The more he gives his sword to Stannis, the more the Lannisters are going to hate the watch, and the more the watch will pay for it later.

Also remember that Jon, upon becoming Lord Commander, has a chance to listen to Sam. About the babies. He doesn't. If I recall correctly, he also ignores Aemon when the maester asks to stay at the wall. Nor does he ever listen to Grenn or his other friends. Or Melisandre.

The fact is every one of his meetings begin with Jon saying he is going to do something. His advisors ask him to think of the consequences of his actions. He tells them he is doing what he wants, their complaints notwithstanding, and they have to help him plan an action they think is going to result in needless deaths. His observations about their incompetence come from the a single place: he has already made up his mind about the right thing to do, and is not interested in hearing any divergent opinions, even when he asks for them. He wants to hear that he is a genius and everything he is doing is correct. He doesn't want advice.

His advisors are only incompetent because they are not telling him what he wants to hear. As I said in the previous post, he asks for advice over and over again but ignores it every time. Ignoring what others tell you when they think you're wrong is not listening. It is being bullheaded and short sighted.

(Note: the events at the wall should vindicate his advisors. Their predictions are correct almost every time. They were not idiots. Jon was a dictator who wanted lickspittles and yes men, and that's not what he had, so he became frustrated.)

j

[jjames36]

So almost nothing interesting happened in the Dany chapters, fine, but she did develop and find a perfectly valid reason to leave, which will hopefully make her story more interesting in the next novel. She did develop a more necessarily violent outlook at the end as well, where she realizes that she cannot be the savior of the world, and solve every problem. She has come to terms with the fact that for her to be queen, innocent people have to die.

That's true. But the pacing is still off. There was no need for seven Dany chapters before something happened with her character or the story. We get so many chapters for two reasons: 1. To align timelines with other characters. And 2. To build the world. Neither of these proposes produce quality character or plot development. In my opinion, and in the opinion of many others, either more should have happened in these seven chapters or some of the chapters should have been deleted. Two with the internal, political and emotional struggles would have been enough to establish the reality of her situation. After two, marry her off and proceed to Drogon. She gets to the same place without all of the world building repetition.

Note: I agree that Barristan's chapters were well done. They were, in my opinion, the second best POVs in Dance (the first being Bran's).

So he breaks a lot of vows, but isn't ready to abandon his post. It is an important distinction to make.

Huh? Whether or not he labels it as such, leading an army of wildlings against the Boltons is abandoning his post, so I'm not certain what you mean here.

j

P.S. Tyrion and Victarion are moving toward Dany, sure. But that is one of my central complaints with this book. Neither of them ever get there, which means Dany is no more connected to Westerors after five books than she was after 1, 2, 3 or 4. Since Westeros is the central story line in this series, that seems very strange to me.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

I would contend you are taking Jon's point of view, actually. Quite unabashedly.

Jon complains about his advisors being stubborn, yes. But look at the advice he received. An objective observer can easily see why his advisors suggest what they do. They tell him to keep the wildlings out, because they have good reason to be scared of the wildlings. They tell him not to marry the Karstark girl to a wildling, because the Watch is supposed to stay out of the political affairs of the realm. They tell him to keep rangers behind the wall, because every ranger they send out dies, and they are going to need all the man power they can get later. They tell him not to send the island rescue mission because it is hopeless. And so forth. All of their advice has good cause, especially when they tell him not to march out of the north with an army of wildlings behind him. The more he gives his sword to Stannis, the more the Lannisters are going to hate the watch, and the more the watch will pay for it later.

Also remember that Jon, upon becoming Lord Commander, has a chance to listen to Sam. About the babies. He doesn't. If I recall correctly, he also ignores Aemon when the maester asks to stay at the wall.

Haha, you just unabashedly took Bowen March's side.......about the wildings and the wall there are actually valid points on both sides (letting them through is potentially very dangerous) but i go primarily with Jon's "the wall must be manned" and even if shut the gate whats left of the nights watch probably wouldn't be enough. There's risk letting them through and there's risk in not letting them through. As far as hardhome goes we would know more if we actually got to hear Jon and Torumnds plan for how its to succeed, but it might have just been doomed anyway

Your recollection is mostly wrong about Sam and all wrong about Aemon, the talk around the castle was that he would burn the baby and Stannis almost burned Edric Storm before Davos interfered, he could have asked from Sam's advice but he knew Sam had a crush on her (they talk about in SOS), his advice would be biased. Aemon states that it was as much his idea to be sent away as Jon, and that he should have seen that ice preserves...i think the quote is the Lord Commander couldn't have known but i should have seen it

[Bran the Weirwood]

I actually agree with most of your second post. I think the Dany chapters were a bit too much, but I don't think that what happened could have happened within two chapters. They probably should have been of a shorter legnth, with less talk about how bad she wants to fuck Daario and how bored she is while petitioners are bothering her (we didn't need to hear 1/3 of every damn petition). The primary focus should have been her concerns about her dragons acting like dragons and the actions of the Harpy/Harpies. Her internal monologues lasted too long, and this was the primary source of boredom.

As for the first one, I believe Jon had the right impression of his advisors at first. They were being short sighted; Focusing on the wildlings when it was clear as daylight that the Others were the real danger. It was as though they wouldn't take orders from him, and he had no advice. Sure, they were often right, but before the Karstark situation (this is where Jon begins to crack from lonliness and stress, his "closest advisors" being the primary source of this it would be perfectly natural to begin tuning them out), all of the consequences were relatively small compared to the potential rewards of success or punishments of failure.

Jon really was thinking on a higher level than his advisors, at least until Mel dropped Arya's name. I find it fairly difficult to contend with that. He began taking on a lot of Stannis-like traits after finding out that his command actually gave him very little command. When your men make it as hard as possible for you to carry out your orders, and don't even make an attempt to compromise with you, how are you supposed to take them seriously when they are right?

So yes, his advisors were stubborn. "Idiots" is perhaps too strong a word, but they really weren't thinking the Long Winter through, and had no trust in Jon (who managed to strike a deal with Braavos to feed the wildlings, which was one of the arguments used for why he shouldn't harbor them).

[jjames36]

Haha, you just unabashedly took Bowen March's side.......about the wildings and the wall there are actually valid points on both sides (letting them through is potentially very dangerous) but i go primarily with Jon's "the wall must be manned" and even if shut the gate whats left of the nights watch probably wouldn't be enough. There's risk letting them through and there's risk in not letting them through. As far as hardhome goes we would know more if we actually got to hear Jon and Torumnds plan for how its to succeed, but it might have just been doomed anyway.

I can see why you think I was taking Marsh's side. I didn't specify that I believe most of Jon's decisions concerning wildlings to be the correct ones given the situation. Hardhome was a mistake, but letting the wildlings in was smart. I'm not taking Marsh's side. I'm just saying neither Marsh nor Jon's other advisor's were idiots. Jon didn't like them because they didn't agree with him.

Your recollection is mostly wrong about Sam and all wrong about Aemon, the talk around the castle was that he would burn the baby and Stannis almost burned Edric Storm before Davos interfered, he could have asked from Sam's advice but he knew Sam had a crush on her (they talk about in SOS), his advice would be biased. Aemon states that it was as much his idea to be sent away as Jon, and that he should have seen that ice preserves...i think the quote is the Lord Commander couldn't have known but i should have seen it

You're right on this. I thought I might be wrong, but I was too lazy in my sickness to look it up. Now that you have clarified, I admit my mistake without hesitation.

j

[Bran the Weirwood]

What you don't see, James, is that they didn't just disagree with him; They defied and disrespected him. It is a leaders job to sometimes do unpopular things. It's the job of a leaders top advisors to guide him the best way through it. It isn't like Jon was insane. A good advisor doesn't say "Don't do that" and they especially don't say "You shouldn't have done that." They gave him no real advice, they simply said they would do the opposite thing, instead of working on damage control (all world-changing decisions involve some degree of damage, good and bad). Many of the incidents that led to Jon's downfall might not have occured had he gotten some advice from people who had basic trust in his command, which is something he didn't have from the first second he stepped in.

[jjames36]

They defied and disrespected him.

I never argued to the contrary, and I never will. Nowhere in my argument have I claimed Jon's advisors are brilliant or perfect. They are flawed and morally suspect. I have only said they are not idiots. I will now add that they are no more or less stubborn than Jon himself, and that they give Jon no more or less respect than he gives them. Both parties in this doomed saga are equally to blame for the animosity that develops between them. (Though the advisors are more to blame for the violence that results, obviously.)

But this where we start veering into the conversation of whether or not Jon is a good leader in Dance. I have my opinion on that topic, but it isn't one I'm all that interest in debating. (For the record, I don't think he is.)

The question of the quality of his leadership is a minor one within the frame of my larger argument, that being that the shifts in Jon's character were too fast, too soon and too underdeveloped to work as character change. Because they don't work well as character change, they are not enough to drive the story forward on their own.

j

[BoldAsYouPlease]

All of the development seemed to make sense to me. Dany and much of the east was boring, but the writer finally tied himself out of the knot. When you publish Storm of Swords with the intention of taking a 5 year break, after which Dany has already stated she intends to stay in Meereen, then you have to stay in Meereen. It sucks, but I believe the crappy Quentyn chapters (which are the only ones that really, really didn't need to be POV), the Selmy chapters, the Victarion chapters and the Tyrion chapters were all his way of pulling his most important characters out of the knots he tied. I'm not saying George doesn't deserve some blame for getting into those knots, or that he couldn't have done a better job getting out of them, but I can see how a good author could have a little trouble with this.

So almost nothing interesting happened in the Dany chapters, fine, but she did develop and find a perfectly valid reason to leave

Chapter 1

Dany awoke from an evil dream in which she had wandered the Dothraki Sea. Little remained but the memory of violent diarrhea and a voice which whispered "dragons plant no trees". Was it Qaithe's voice? Or the voice of Jorah, her old bear?

"I am only a young girl but I know that it really doesn't matter and further, that if I look back I am lost" she mused. It was clearly time to abandon her hope of planting trees and that could only mean a trip to Westeros.

"Irri! Jhiqui! Pack my bags!"

How hard is that? And is it really that much worse than the wordy, exhausting emptiness of the real Dany arc in ADwD? The nice thing about writing fiction is that your characters will do whatever you want them to. Daenerys has been written as a not particularly rational young woman filled with good intentions and no sense. Where is the "knot" in finding a way for such a flighty character make one more impulsive decision?

[Bran the Weirwood]

Chapter 1

Dany awoke from an evil dream in which she had wandered the Dothraki Sea. Little remained but the memory of violent diarrhea and a voice which whispered "dragons plant no trees". Was it Qaithe's voice? Or the voice of Jorah, her old bear?

"I am only a young girl but I know that it really doesn't matter and further, that if I look back I am lost" she mused. It was clearly time to abandon her hope of planting trees and that could only mean a trip to Westeros.

"Irri! Jhiqui! Pack my bags!"

How hard is that? And is it really that much worse than the wordy, exhausting emptiness of the real Dany arc in ADwD? The nice thing about writing fiction is that your characters will do whatever you want them to. Daenerys has been written as a not particularly rational young woman filled with good intentions and no sense. Where is the "knot" in finding a way for such a flighty character make one more impulsive decision?

Ummm, her pride and empathy? They would never allow her to move on unless she found that her ideals about reforming Meereen were untenable. GRRM made it so, in a way where she doesn't have to run like a coward or act uncharacteristically whimsical even for herself (her deciding in a week that she wasn't going to stay in Meereen after all would be absurd). It was a stupid corner that he wrote himself into, in order to accomodate his orginal plan for a break, and the story needed some tightening. Obviously GRRM found the idea of fucking Daario much more interesting than the readers did.

Still, all knots are untied, and we have witnessed major changes in character from Dany (mainly her being okay with death of innocents, leaving enemy cities to ruin, etc....) This is what is important to me. All of these things would, IMO, be nitpicking if I had Winds of Winter in my hands right now. That book is absolutely crucial to the series as a whole, and I believe it will redeem this series to everybody who isn't so stubborn (and has already broadcast their hatred on the internet, nobody likes backtracking from an opinion they stated in writing) that they simply cannot change their initial perspectives.

I agree with an earlier poster who pointed out that this was at times GRRM at his absolute best and at others his absolute worst. I find it hard to rank in the series because of this. Even with all of the flaws that were present, I still found the book massively entertaining and stimulating.

Anyways, as for James, what would have been "smooth" enough a transition for Jon? There are no real set rules for character development. Sometimes characters change immediately in the face of major trauma, sometimes very gradually when dealing with change that results from purely internal factors, and sometimes in jerks and bursts when shit keeps coming up, and in a million other varieties. There are no set rules to it, and certainly none that say it has to be "smooth." Every Jon chapter involved some kind of event (either internal or external) that challenged the mindset he was in at the end of aSoS. He was developing while all Stannis and Mel driven hell was coming down all around him, hence there wasn't as much internal monologue as usual, but that was also a result of "killing the boy," he is done being a pitious brat (aSoS development). I like to think of myself as a fairly analytical reader, and nothing about the way Jon transitioned struck me as off from a writing perspective. Meereen and Volantis? Sure, something was off at times. But GRRM's writing as far as Westeros is concerned always strikes me as fairly strong for a fantasy writer (because foreign cultures always suck in fantasy novels primarily based around European history, hence Braavos still comes off as strong, being based off of Venice and all that).

[Northern Pride]

I thought all in all, ADWD was a a mix of extraordinary edge of your seat writing at some points and then lacking at other points. Theon was just off the hook and I found myself waiting anxiously for the next chapter as well as Arya the complete badass of course.< By far the best chapters in the the book for those 2 characters imo. Davos and the meeting with the Manderly's was done most excellent too. Feel like we have a better understanding of the Manderly's who are quickly endearing themselves to the reader. Jon coming into his own had me smiling for a week when the chopping block came out. Of course that got turned into mush later on.

Few random thoughts.

Found the Tyrion chapters ok if not a little drawn out. A 1/4 of the way he's enroute to meet Dany T. He couldn't get the meeting to happen with the other million pages of DWG?

Daario is freaking annoying and I hope he dies asap. He's not a real person so I think I can say that? Actually I hope the Dothraki horde and Dragons just burn those cities to the foundations in the first chapter.

There's still hope for Dany to have a good story but she has to get to the Western Kingdoms in a hurry. There's only 2 books left and a lot to still write about. I don't want it all written in the last 200 pages of book 7.

I still feel no closer to the Ironmen of the Isles than I did 4 books ago. I feel no association with them through 5 books which is weird to me.

I still enjoyed the hell out of this book. Like I said as well as others, some of these chapters were some of the best in the series. I'm excited for Winter.

[jjames36]

Anyways, as for James, what would have been "smooth" enough a transition for Jon? There are no real set rules for character development. Sometimes characters change immediately in the face of major trauma, sometimes very gradually when dealing with change that results from purely internal factors, and sometimes in jerks and bursts when shit keeps coming up, and in a million other varieties. There are no set rules to it, and certainly none that say it has to be "smooth." Every Jon chapter involved some kind of event (either internal or external) that challenged the mindset he was in at the end of aSoS. He was developing while all Stannis and Mel driven hell was coming down all around him, hence there wasn't as much internal monologue as usual, but that was also a result of "killing the boy," he is done being a pitious brat (aSoS development). I like to think of myself as a fairly analytical reader, and nothing about the way Jon transitioned struck me as off from a writing perspective. Meereen and Volantis? Sure, something was off at times. But GRRM's writing as far as Westeros is concerned always strikes me as fairly strong for a fantasy writer (because foreign cultures always suck in fantasy novels primarily based around European history, hence Braavos still comes off as strong, being based off of Venice and all that).

Like you said, there are no set rules here. So there are no easy answers to this question.

But, generally speaking, when you write from character, you slow down the plot to show, not tell, the characters' internal struggle. To get a feel for what I'm talking about, think of Raymond Carver. A minimalist short story writer, Carver almost never told you what was going on in his character's mind. He showed it to you. In one of his stories, when a father loses a child, Carver doesn't go on for two or three pages about how the dad remembers things he and his daughter (I think it was the deceased child was a girl) used to do, the way many authors prefer. No. Carver shows the dad walking into the garage, looking at the kid's bike, trying to pick it up for some reason, and then collapsing on it, as he begins to heave tears and hyperventilate. In that moment, we see the dad's grief, and all of us can instantly empathize with him, whether or not we have living or deceased children.

In Dance, so much plot had to happen in Jon's chapters (and Martin was wasting so much space in other POVs), that the author chose not to slow down to show the character's struggle. At times, he told us what was happening in Jon's head, but this is not sufficient. Any creative writing 101 student can tell you that telling speeds through character change. It doesn't sell it. Only rarely do we see the struggle in Dance Jon, the way we saw it at the end of Storm when he deliberated on whether or not to accept Stannis' offer. Or the way we saw it in Game when he insists to both his uncle and his father that he is going to the wall. Or the way we see it when he's trying to hide from his friends as they come looking to bring him back to the Wall. (The hiding, in this case, is a powerful visual. Through that visual, we already know his friends are going to succeed in talking him down from desertion. If he was really committed to leaving the Wall, he would have waited to be found so he could tell his friends to bugger off. That he chooses instead to hide shows us much about his inner turmoil.)

(Note: Martin is not a minimalist. By any stretch. So even when he does show something, there is still a lot more telling than there is in Carver or other like-minded authors.)

We have seen Martin use this slower, show the inner turmoil of his characters approach throughout the series. He even does it with Dany and (to a lesser extent) Tyrion (for whom it was unnecessary) in Dance. As one example, it took three 1000ish page novels to get Jon from petulant teenager who broods and can't decide what he wants to man who has made his choice. Anyone could have made that change in 100 pages if they had so desired (though it wouldn't have worked well). But Martin chose to make it a 3000 page adaptation for a reason: he knew that's how he could sell it to the reader. Then, in Dance, he reverses all the work Jon went through in the first three books. And in how many pages? 1000ish. The numbers tell us something about the approach taken. In the first three books, Jon's chapters were written from character, even though a lot of plot happened. In Dance, they were written from plot, and a lot character change happened. It is my belief that didn't work as well as the alternative would have. It's easy to write from character and still have a detailed plot. It's much harder to write from plot and still have complex, multidimensional characters whose growth seems natural.

So, in answer to your question. There are no formulas, but I think Martin should have slowed down and shown us more of Jon's struggle, by having him confide in someone perhaps. Or by having him write letters to someone. Or by having him break down a time or two. Or by having dream sequences that illustrate the inner turmoil. Or whatever. We needed to see Jon fight with himself so that we could buy his ultimate path into unaware deserter of the Night's Watch who meant to not only to leave the watch, but also to lead an army against some of the very people the watch is sworn to protect.

j

[The Lost Lord]

Thanks for engaging in the discussion, jjames36.

With regards to Dany's chapters being too long -- apparently Martin did try to do her arc in 4-5 chapters originally, but felt it didn't work, which led to the years-long rewrite. Check out the very early draft of the fighting pit chapter from long ago -- the situation is totally different -- there's no foreign threat from the Yunkai'i, the Harpy have not been appeased, Dany is not married to Hizdahr. And yet she was going to fly away on Drogon right then. It would have been a really kind of callow end to the storyline without her even trying very hard to make peace. (Like the silly scenario presented by BoldAsYouPlease above.)

I think that Martin changed it because he did not want Dany to throw up her hands, embrace a violent approach and give up her peacemaking effort too easily. He wanted to make clear she was really really trying to do right by her people, and that she really did care about innocent life -- so he conceived of the idea for the Hizdahr marriage as Dany's ultimate sacrifice that she tries to make for her people.

But once this element is conceived, it really doesn't make sense for the willful Dany to do it unless she is utterly, totally backed into a corner and it's clear that nothing else is working. So we get 6 chapters of that and the addition of the Yunkai threat to give her the motivation to unite Meeren with her marriage, a further emphasis on the devastation in Astapor to emphasize the hell that awaits the Meereense if Dany simply leaves, and the Daario affair as Dany's desperate last gasp for independence before giving up her autonomy for her new husband. It's an incredibly frustrating arc and it's meant to be frustrating. And if people just aren't interested in Meereen or the characters there, that's their prerogative. But I think that cutting several of Dany's chapters would only have substantially weakened Dany's character development -- by making her give up on Meereen too easily, or by making her give into the marriage too easily. If you create a character with an indomitable will, sometimes it's difficult to maneuver her where the plot requires her to be.

[criticism of Jon's character "regression" and lack of interiority]

The criticism is too much internal turmoil from Dany, but not enough from Jon. You say Martin's not a "minimalist" but it's very clear that he portrays different POVs' thought processes differently and this process is very deliberate with Jon. But while Jon doesn't agonize for pages and pages over his decisions like Dany does -- because he has a different personality -- I do think we get enough glimpses into his thought processes to understand perfectly well why he does what he does.

Many of Jon's controversial decisions he justifies simply by "the greater good" of saving the realm from the Others. (Indeed, one of his main lessons of ACOK/ASOS is that some oathbreaking can be justified if it's for the greater good.) He does not see his duty merely as to the Watch but to the realm itself including wildling refugees. So he is willing to discard Night's Watch traditions and bend his oaths repeatedly when he thinks it is good for the realm. Because these are not ordinary times and he knows the existence of humanity is at stake. So, he uses that rationale to justify his wildling political project, letting women in the Watch, etc.

But the "bend vows for the greater good" mentality can easily send you down a slippery slope of rationalizing whatever you want to do as somehow in service to "the greater good." And it becomes clear throughout the book that some part of Jon does want to do two other things -- (1) protect / save innocent life, (2) defeat/kill evil people like the Lannisters/Boltons. And when Melisandre says to him, "Your Wall is a queer place, but there is power here, if you will use it. Power in you, and in this beast. You resist it, and that is your mistake. Embrace it. Use it" -- she is talking about warging on the surface, but the sentence sums up Jon's plotline and conflict as a whole. Will he keep his hands tied and resist using his power, or will he use it to do those two things he wants?

Let's start with innocent life. You say the Karstark/wildling wedding is a point of no return, and it certainly is not in the traditional purview of a Lord Commander. There is some sort of a greater good justification that Jon refers to when he thinks of "all I've built with Lady Alys and her Magnar," as this helps cement a wildling alliance to hopefully fight the Others. But of course the true motivation here is that a young girl showed up and asked Jon for help and he didn't want to hand her back over to her uncle to be repeatedly raped for the rest of her life. We see this again with the Hardhome decision, Jon tries to "greater good" justify it by saying they'll all come back as wights, but what's really going on here is that he doesn't want to stand by and do nothing while innocent people die. It's no accident that Martin presents him twice in this book with the question of whether he should stand by while a young Northern girl is forcibly married and repeatedly raped for the rest of her life -- and he decides to intervene both times. Jon's a do-gooder at heart. Now that he's attained power we've learned about his values, and when faced with scenarios where innocent life is at stake, he has shown himself unwilling to compromise. We may criticize some of his decisions but on the whole this is a very admirable trait!

Now the other side -- his growing desire to defeat and kill (those he sees as) evil people, like the Lannisters and Boltons. Jon starts by giving Stannis a battle plan because, he thinks, "Stannis fights for the realm, the ironmen for thralls and plunder" -- and he's totally right about this. But it goes against his vows to pick sides, and he's also motivated by hatred for the ironborn, Lannisters and Boltons. So he starts rooting for Stannis in the war and surreptitiously helping him. He despises Cregan Karstark and wants to behead him like with Slynt, but although the desire is clearly building, he doesn't. Point is, throughout the book he does have this desire to kill evil people which builds until it explodes in the last chapter. But he does a pretty good job of keeping it in check before then and might have continued to do so...

…except for one decision, the one that truly meant his downfall in the end, the Mance mission. (Sure, his choice to march south was more momentous, but after the Ramsay Letter it's difficult to see any much better alternative in this situation.) When he first gets the news of the Arya/Ramsay marriage, Jon thinks: "His thoughts kept returning to Arya. There is no way I can help her. I put all kin aside when I said my words. If one of my men told me his sister was in peril, I would tell him that was no concern of his. Once a man had said the words his blood was black." Shortly afterward he meets Melisandre and they have the conversation about embracing and using power. Then we get the Mel POV chapter where she gives Jon the plan, saying she kinda sorta has a way to maybe save Arya that wouldn't violate his vows (so she says). Finally, in the following chapter that's mostly about other things, Jon's thoughts only very briefly return to what he has done:

"A grey girl on a dying horse, fleeing from her marriage. On the strength of those words he had loosed Mance Rayder and six spearwives on the north… The unburnt king supplied some names, and Dolorous Edd had done the rest, smuggling them from Mole's Town… somehow here he was, pinning his hopes on them. All to save my sister. But the men of the Night's Watch have no sisters... Now he was a man grown and the Wall was his, yet all he had were doubts. He could not even seem to conquer those."

He was tempted. He did it. He feels guilty about it. He knows there's no "greater good" justification here. But he decided that he couldn't stand by while Arya was repeatedly raped for the rest of her life, so he used the power he has to make a secretive move that has the possibility of saving her. And he doesn't want to dwell on the potential consequences of, "what if this blows up in my face?"

So it does blow up in his face. And really, the die is cast when Ramsay's Letter arrives. But when Jon gets the letter he goes through the same thought process he has throughout the book, reflecting on his vows, his family, but concluding with the threat of evil and what evil will do to innocent life if not stopped:

I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell... I want my bride back... I want my bride back... I want my bride back...

So at the end, just like Mel wanted, he embraces his power and uses it. That's who Jon has become. He thought he could commit fully to the Watch. But as part of Martin's overall project of demystifying and challenging the simplicity of vows and oaths, Jon has discovered now that the vows don't offer an answer to every problem that he can live with. He can't live with young girls being repeatedly raped, he can't live with a monster who skins women ruling the North. This isn't regression, it's discovering who he truly is.

[jjames36]

Thanks for engaging in the discussion, jjames36.

My pleasure. Been a long time since I finished as an undergrad and an equally long time since I took any literary analysis or creative writing classes, so these are not the sorts of discussions I get to have anymore.

With regards to Dany's chapters being too long -- apparently Martin did try to do her arc in 4-5 chapters originally, but felt it didn't work, which led to the years-long rewrite. Check out the very early draft of the fighting pit chapter from long ago -- the situation is totally different -- there's no foreign threat from the Yunkai'i, the Harpy have not been appeased, Dany is not married to Hizdahr. And yet she was going to fly away on Drogon right then. It would have been a really kind of callow end to the storyline without her even trying very hard to make peace. (Like the silly scenario presented by BoldAsYouPlease above.)

Interesting. But it doesn't absolve Martin of blame. Nor does it fix the pacing problem. What it tells me is Martin played on a single line and never found the middle. In one case, the one you describe above, he played on the left end wherein he went too fast. And in the other case, the one we have in Dance with Dragons, he played on the right end wherein he went too slow. Either way, his pacing was off. It's just a question of how.

See below for a more descriptive version of this same sentiment.

I think that Martin changed it because he did not want Dany to throw up her hands, embrace a violent approach and give up her peacemaking effort too easily ... But once this element is conceived, it really doesn't make sense for the willful Dany to do it unless she is utterly, totally backed into a corner and it's clear that nothing else is working.

I agree with this theory.

Where I disagree is not in Martin's general line of thinking, but in how the thought process was executed. He gave us six chapters of desperation, at least several of which were superfluous. Had the narrative been tightened, and Dany's thought processes streamlined, two or three such chapters would have sufficiently created the same scenario. The Harpy is wreaking havoc. No matter what she tries, she cannot seem to make peace with it. She misses Jorah but won't admit it to anyone else and maybe not even to herself. She wants to have sex with Daario but knows he is an improper and poorly selected lover. Some of her advisors counsel, perhaps twice in two or three chapters, that she sacrifice all the cities' nobles, no matter their guilt, so the Harpy learns she is not messing around. She resists twice. Another set of counselors advise she marry Hihzdar, but she resists that advice twice as well. Quentyn shows up, but she cannot give him the attention or commitment he expects, because she has committed to fixing Meereen. She fights it for two chapters, trying multiple options to pacify the Harpy (just as she does in the narrative Martin gave us), but eventually concludes she has to make a decision. And she marries Hihzdar.

So leading to the marriage with Hihzdar, we have the following chapters:

1. The introduction. Her dragons are going crazy. She captures and chains up two of them, but Drogon escapes. Her people are unhappy with her, both because she has not given what they expect, and because her dragons have harmed some of them. This is more or less the introductory chapter we have in Dance.
   
2. The Harpy emerges, challenging her rule. Hihzdar propses marriage. She refuses. The Harpy escalates their attacks. She muses on her options with her closest advisors, including Daario. She wants to sleep with Daario, but refrains. She elects to try several choices short of marrying Hihzdar or murdering nobles.
   
3. Continuing to escalate, the Harpy is wreaking havoc on Dany's rule after her attempts to pacify them fail. She tries another option, though her advisors once again suggest she marry or murder. Over the course of her counsel with advisors, she considers sleeping with Daario. She doesn't. Hihzdar proposes again. She refuses. Daario comes calling. She gives in. The harpy escalates once more. She receives word that Yunka'i is organizing attack. Quentyn arrives.
   
4. At her wits end, Dany tries one last desperate solution to pacify the Harpy. It fails. Yunka'i is almost ready to come for her. Both Barristan and Daario tell her she no longer has any choice. She sleeps with Daario again, then resolves she has to stop and agrees to marry Hihzdar. She meets with Quentyn and tells him she cannot be his wife.
   
5. The rest of her story progresses exactly as it does in Dance, because--after her marriage--the pacing of the story improves.
   

If you create a character with an indomitable will, sometimes it's difficult to maneuver her where the plot requires her to be.

True. But in the above proposal, I have changed no events, only tightened the narrative. I contend that my more rapidly paced story arc preserves Dany's indomitable will and brings her to the same point of utter frustration. It just does it with far less repetition than Martin gave us. Dany's journey, in other words, is the same, just less repetitive.

The criticism is too much internal turmoil from Dany, but not enough fro Jon.

That is the crux of my thoughts on the Jon chapters, yes. Not so much on Dany, though. The problem with Dany isn't that there is too much internal conflict; it's that the internal conflict is repeated too frequently. Multiple chapters in her arc provide no new information about her or the plot than the information given us in previous or later chapters. Some of her chapters build the world of Meereen nicely, as the rest of the novel builds the rest of Martin's world. But for my money world building is different from good story telling. I would have liked to have seen less narrative repetition in Dany's chapters and more forward momentum. Build the world within the confines of that momentum.

You say Martin's not a "minimalist" but it's very clear that he portrays different POVs' thought processes differently and this process is very deliberate with Jon.

Yes. For instance, in previous books, Dany, like she does in Dance, ruminates when alone and ruminates even more when with others. She seeks feedback and responds to counsel. She confides in those closest to her and reflects on her mistakes and successes.

For his part, consistently, throughout every book, Jon doesn't seek as much feedback from others as does Dany. But in the first three books, he does reflect on his choices almost incessantly; he just reflects when alone. He receives advice from many individuals, but that advice is almost always unsolicited, as with Tyrion when the dwarf found Jon in Winterfell, on the way to the wall, and then again on top of the wall. Or as with Mormont after Jon's foiled abandonment of the Watch. And so on. Much of the time Jon ignores the advice he receives. Other times he accepts it. All the while, he is reflecting on his choices privately. His time in Mance's wildling camp comes to mind. Almost every page deals with his inner battle between whether he should return to the Wall or stay with the wildlings, for many of whom he feels genuine affection.

Then, in the fifth book, he ruminates far less. There are far fewer scenes devoted to who he wants to be and far more scenes devoted to what he's doing, in spite of solid advice that he reconsider his actions. In and of itself, I do not question this shift in Jon's thought processes. Much of it is explained by the "Kill the Boy" story arc. But the loss of this thought process makes it more difficult to follow the transition between Storm Jon and Dance Jon.

But the "bend vows for the greater good" mentality can easily send you down a slippery slope of rationalizing whatever you want to do as somehow in service to "the greater good." And it becomes clear throughout the book that some part of Jon does want to do two other things -- (1) protect / save innocent life, (2) defeat/kill evil people like the Lannisters/Boltons.

When I first read this novel, I thought the Karstark wedding was a total break from character. I did not think it had been properly built up and I did not buy that Jon would have arranged the wedding. Ever. I believed the only in-character choice was to send the girl away from the wall, to her fate in the realm. And so I was taken completely out of the book by the wedding plot development. Now I am ready to concede that Martin did put in place the slippery slope leading to the wedding. You have convinced me, and I concede the point to you. (Not that you knew we were debating it.)

But you have not convinced me of a more fundamental point, that being the transition between Storm Jon and Dance Jon. To be fair, I think you appropriately summarize Jon's journey in Dance. If Dance were a stand alone novel, I'd think you are right -- Jon's journey is well written. That is, if Dance were the first book in the series, I would take little issue with Jon's plot line.

But Dance is not a stand alone novel. And it's not the first, or even the second, book in a series. It's the fifth book in a seven book series, which means the reality of the situation, characters and plot are already well in place. And the reality of Jon the last time we saw him is that he has committed to the Watch and become a man who is letting go of his personal desire to be a heroic Stark that saves the realm. He bleeds black, not Stark, now. That is the story we read in Game, Clash and Storm.

In Dance, we read a different story. Your analysis of Jon's progression in Dance is strong, spot on strong, but it leaves out why or how we've transitioned from Storm Jon to Dance Jon. That's not your fault. You leave it out because Martin didn't show it to you.

I can infer why Jon has transitioned from the person he was at the end of the third book to the person he is in the fifth. But that's my point: I'm making inferences built on my own experiences and assumptions, not analyzing what the author gave me. The author didn't show me this story from the inside out. He showed it to me from outside, so that external events are demanding the character make difficult choices. That's fine alone, but Dance is not alone. I needed to see Jon struggle through these events more, so that I could watch him fight himself as he violated his own priorities. Because I didn't see him struggle with himself, only with external forces and characters, I don't see him growing from the watchman in Storm to the deserter in Dance. I see him regress from the watchman in Storm to the would-be-deserter in Game.

j

[Mulled Wino]

^AKA: George's writing of character development was subtler than most people would have understood.

As for character development, I disagree. Strongly. The characters didn't develop, they regressed. They became idiots so that George could have his cheap plot twist (Jon); or suddenly became indecisive, lazy and stupid when previously they had been forthright and assertive (Dany). Jon's character arc is not one of a man in a difficult situation, though there are shades of that in there, it's one of where the author realises he needs to have his prophecy fulfilled to create his superhero; so he makes his character into a moron to accomplish it, thereby invalidating any success that said character may have in the future. Dany doesn't spend time trying to build her kingdom, she lounges around and daydreams about having sex with whatshisface because lol!teenage girl.

Also, it's been said that the two preceding novels are: "Set Up Novels". Here's my problem with that: AFFC and ADwD are, combined, over two thousand pages hardback. ADwD is so long that it had to be split into two volumes paperback. How is it good pacing when you have to have that many words devoted solely to set up? And when people say that I'm reminded of people who say that FFXIII is good after 20 hours of gameplay, it doesn't matter. Games shouldn't take twenty hours to get good, book series's shouldn't take two books to get decent.

Then there are other problems, like lazy storytelling, contrived coincidences and description so purple the Queen of England's curtains look at it with a disapproving eye.

But above it all is the question: Why exactly should I care? The Starks have been shown to be incompetent and stupid, Dany is insane lazy and hormonal, and the plot is paced like an ant pushing a brick up a sandhill. Because Jon might be AA? Great, so, by being a complete idiot he get's himself killed and then is given something that he didn't earn, and I'm supposed to like this character?

Wait a second, are you saying that marrying a Harpy because he stopped his own people from killing Dany's people for 90 days was lazy story telling or Dany regressing?

Makes Jon Snow's sending away all of his best allies at Castle Black appear brilliant.