Book Five and Hindsight.

[Salavace]

With the fifth installment of A Song of Ice and Fire having been out for nearly a year now, I've had plenty of time to read and re-read the book, as have many others. Still I'm surprised by how divisive the book has been in terms of reader reviews and opinions (the book is actually rated worse than A Feast for Crows on Amazon). My question is this: do you think that fans' opinions of book five - and four, I suppose, since they're essentially two parts of the same novel - will be more positive once The Winds of Winter is released or when the series is finished?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Good question, and yes, I think so. They feel like stand-still books because that's sort of what they are — they're getting people in position for the finale, without moving the action too far along. I think that once the series is over, people will be able to look back and see that Feast and Dance played pretty important, if unglamorous, roles.

[Salavace]

That's what I think as well. It seems to me that common complaints of books four and five are that there's not much happening, but that's not the case at all. Dorne seeks allegiance with the Targaryens, the Lannisters lose their position of power, the Wall turns to disarray, Manderly works to bring power back to the North, Davos seeks the Stark's heir, Stannis marches on Winterfell, Tyrion reconciles himself and decides to live again, and I could go on and on. The chess pieces are being reset for round two, which is about to begin.

[Ser Oswell Whent]

I agree with y'all. ASOS had so much action and big names dropping like flies, but it wouldn't have been dramatic without the rising action from the first 2 books. AFFC and ADWD had to deal with the consequences of all that and set up the current situation.

[All For Joffrey]

I agree and also disagree. AFFC is probably my least favorite, but ADWD is hands down my favorite of the series so far. For me its really the split in the stories, and which characters are featured in each one. All the story lines I really enjoy were in Dance. I'm really not a big fan of any of the people featured in Feast.

[Lord Orys Baratheon]

I definitely think in that long run, the last 2 published books will be viewed more favorably. I've started to look at the last couple books as kind of like ACOK, meaning the last 2 books have been more about introducing new characters (mainly AFFC) and setting up the story lines for the endings (ADWD. So since AFFC and ADWD are more of a setup for the finale people are disappointed in the lack of conclusions, leading to negative reviews. Hopefully the next 2 books will both be on the level of ASOS, when it comes to action and moving the story along, which I believe will be the case.

[Errant Bard]

No, I don't think so. Crossroads of Twilight or Toll The Hound were never better liked after the next books were released and/or the series finished.

There is necessarily some sort of heightened backlash upon release though, some fans wait for a marvel, and only get a book, and they become a vocal minority, who ends up shutting up, thus the impression the book is better liked, maybe. Still, given the criticisms, I don't think the global opinion will vary much.

And I'm saying that as someone who thinks AFFC is the best in the series while ADWD is the worst (it still has qualities). Both bought in hardback the day they were published.

[Salavace]

Interesting point, Errant. It's amazing how different some of the opinions here are. I never thought anyone would rank A Feast for Crows as the best of the lot.

[Tinydancer]

I agree and also disagree. AFFC is probably my least favorite, but ADWD is hands down my favorite of the series so far. For me its really the split in the stories, and which characters are featured in each one. All the story lines I really enjoy were in Dance. I'm really not a big fan of any of the people featured in Feast.

This

When i had finished it - i wanted more. But looking back it had alot of AWESOME moments.

[Crown]

I think the opinion on Feast and Dance are also based on the fact that people had to wait 5 years to actually read them, and well yeah, I understand they're disapointed with the pacing and the progression of the story. Me, being able to read all the books at once, really enjoyed Feast and Dance.

[Noelle Snow]

That's how I feel, Crown. I think the fact that I didn't have that long wait for both books allowed me to enjoy AFFC and ADWD much more than others did. And I recognized them for what they were - table setters. You can't keep up the level of insanity that is ASOS for four more books. That's not good storytelling. GRRM wiped the table clean by the end of Storm. The next two books are putting the pieces back in place for the table to be wiped clear again then overturned and set on fire. LOL

Plus, while I always see people say things could have been cut for the books like Brienne's and Tyrion's travelogues, we have no idea if all that seemingly unnecessary information is relevant as all hell. So many people are calling Aegon a fake for several reasons but one of which was Brienne's trip with Septon Meribald and visit to the Quiet Isle where she's told about the black dragon sign which ends up washing up on shore as a red dragon. Probably seemed pointless as hell as the time and when ADWD came out, made more sense.

I think both books will be viewed much more favorably when the series is finished.

[Budj]

I speed read...and I agree with All For Joffrey...AFFC was brutal at points...fairly entertaining at other points...while ADWD was up there with the first 3 books for me because I liked the featured characters more. I think I will like AFFC more when the last two (or 3) books come out... With any luck I won't be 40 before this series is done... (26 now)

[Sleipnir]

I definitely felt that AFFC was the best so far, and ADWD was sort of lacking.

[Brucolac]

I won't ever think ADWD is in the same class as the rest of the books because it has too many problems besides a lack of plot. If the next book is of good quality and gets put out containing all POVs and works to conclusion, I will just chalk it up to a somewhat necessary low point in the series that got hurt by way the last two books were published. Right now, I see ASoS as the point where he started to go wrong with character additions but with incredible content, AFFC another step in the wrong direction(but at the time of release, I thought just a circumstance of the split), and ADWD as an epic jumping of the shark.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I understand that both AFFC and ADWD were transitional books, but I thought AFFC was much more successful in setting the stage (all holy seven hells is going to break out in the Riverlands, again) than ADWD. I think ADWD suffered from the facts that the storylines took place thousands of miles apart (the Wall, Braavos, Meereen, etc.) so it wasn't easy to see how they could or would eventually merge, and that there was some obvious sloppy editing. I'm hoping that a revised version will be published somewhere down the line.

On the other hand I really liked some sections of ADWD, in particular the Arya, Davos, Bran and Theon POVs -- in them I could see the Stark story taking a turn for the better. Jon's story was another example of a person being punished for doing the right thing, but I assume his "death" will lead to interesting things. But oh, that Essos mess, that's never going to go away and I assume future readers will find those chapters as irksome as we did.

[Faint]

No, I don't think so. Crossroads of Twilight or Toll The Hound were never better liked after the next books were released and/or the series finished.

Exactly.

If anything, their estimation dropped somewhat in comparison to what were seen as better, subsequent, books in the series (which is quite something, given how little thought of they were even upon their initial release).

[Errant Bard]

I think ADWD suffered from the facts that the storylines took place thousands of miles apart (the Wall, Braavos, Meereen, etc.) so it wasn't easy to see how they could or would eventually merge, and that there was some obvious sloppy editing.

That's the reproach that was made to AFFC when it went out though. I figure every single asoiaf book will get this accusation levelled at it from now on.

I think I would have liked ADWD better without the Orientalism and stupidity of Dany/Barristan/Quentyn/Tyrion/Victarion/Connington chapters gangrening the story. It's removed from the plot, only a tool for characters to grow, and it shows. Martin fails, in my eyes, to write a convincing world there, and the worst is, if he can be believed (said it in video interview), that when he puts a name on a map he wants to "explore" that location. God, please, no, he is awful at this. I get he is going for a Kingdom of Jerusalem scenario for Meereen (wonder who is his Renaud de Châtillon... Barristan, maybe?), but even Bakker does this better.

Jon's story was another example of a person being punished for doing the right thing

"Punished"? It's a story, and Jon clearly was written to be abysmal at leading people and politics. His downfall was entirely natural and deserved, narratively speaking. It's a good thing it happens like that, too: protagonists succeeding only because they are doing the right thing are disney-ish, I like that here when you have good intentions you still need power and other people's support, thus some political acumen, to realizet hat ambition. It's how it does work in reality.

The conservative Watch (think of it as mostly GOP nutso) sees him sending his own people to their death (rangers, who don't return. Hardhome expedition, which doesn't return. More people to Hardhome, who likely won't return either), while accepting immigrants who literally steal the bread out of the mouth of Watchmen (there will be famine at this rate), then they see Jon de facto declaring the Watch an enemy of the winning team (he was urged to stop backing Stannis before, by his lieutnants, when Stannis was still strong. And now that Stannis is supposedly dead, he decides to back him more) and finally they see him lying to them and disregarding the Watch traditions and laws (getting involved with the realms.) Even the latter has been cause for at least one presidential impeachment, in reality, yes? The famine thing was at the root of at least one revolution, and the sending people to their death stuff has had countless officers being shot by their subordinates, but one can think of war criminals like General Nivelle being quietly replaced too.

All in all, you cumulate all this, you deserve being stabbed with prejudice.

[LuisDantas]

Comparing Jon to Nixon? That is weird. Nixon was rotten. Jon is a victim of circunstances beyond his control.

Out of curiosity, in which sense was Nixon's impeachment due to "a

disregard of traditions and laws"? I always thought of it as simply being caught red-handed while at old-fashioned crookery.

[Grip]

I actually agree with Errant Bard as regards to Jon's inabilities as Commander, aswell as what he has done to the Watch breaking both his oath and the traditions of the NW. Harboring the wildlings, backing Stannis, getting involved with the politics of the North etc. As EB says, Jon being stabbed is hardly a surprise.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I think the major problem with aDwD is that is was cut short by length limitations, so it didn't reach its proper conclusion. That problem, in turn, tracks back to aFfC. If a couple storylines in Feast had been tightened up (particularly Brienne's), Feast could have included some of the later chapters in Dance (from the Cercei and Arya plots). That would have allowed enough room in Dance to finish the battles in Meereen and around Winterfell.

I disagree with a good deal of the comments about Jon. The purpose of the Night's Watch is to protect Westeros from the Others, not the wildings. By bringing the wildings south of the Wall, and getting them to agree to obey Westerosi law, Jon scores a major victory. (No one else in Westerosi history has been able to pursuade the wildings to accept Westerosi law.) He just does a bad job of winning the debate over the issue in the eyes of some of the Watch, because as Lord Commander he feels he shouldn't try to win a debate; he should give orders.

The Hardhome mission was a bad decision on Jon's part, not because the intent was wrong (it wasn't), but because it had no chance to succeed. His actions in his last chapter have too many hidden elements for me to judge until the next book comes out.