Is Cersei really a good mother?

[Give Cersei some LOVE]

lol you think she puts herself before the safety of her children? thats definitely a no. She THINKS being in power is the safest place for her children. Once she loses that she thinks she can't give them protection. Thats what you get for growing up prideful and entitled. They don't know how to survive under the shadows. I definitely can't fault her for THINKING and choosing KL over exile.

[Elder Sister]

I don't think anyone would argue that Cersei doesn't love her children. And while there is a period of time that both Robert and Cersei are blind to Joffrey's cruelty, it's obvious that she immediately realizes the error in judgement she has made with him, and how viscous he really is. I think at one point, she's actually afraid of Joffrey.

With Tommen, I see Cersei's selfishness, but I also see a mother and a female who has grown up in Tywin Lannister's shadow knowing that being soft or gentle will get you killed. She tries repeatedly to toughen Tommen up. I'm not saying she was right, but I see her reasoning there. I think it's the same thing with Loras. She wanted to remove his influence, because she was afraid he would influence Tommen into becoming 'gay'. Which is ridiculous as we know, but Cersei is nothing if not paranoid.

No, she's not a very good mother. She makes some truly bad decisions and sets her own desires ahead of them in some cases. But it blows my mind how people will twist themselves into a knot to justify and excuse Tyrion, Stannis, and Robert B., yet Cersei and Cat are constantly torn to shreds.

Westeros is hard on anyone who is not the strongest and most heartless, and Cersei is trying to raise kings andmost importantly, keep them alive. Why would she turn the rule of a kingdom over to a boy who is more interested in kittens than battleships? He's a child.

I cannot count how many posts I've seen justifying Stannis burning people, or Tyrion's multiple sins, but Cersei is never painted anything but the darkest, vilest black. It kind of blows my mind, to be honest.

[Give Cersei some LOVE]

A big like on that last post.

[Mulled Wino]

1: Does she love her children? Yes, without a doubt

2: Is she a good mother? That all Depends on your definition of 'good mother'.

At first glance her actions throughout the series are nothing but selfish, but I do believe that SHE thinks she is doing what is best for her children, and as a mother myself, that is all that you can do.

In the end if they love and respect her, and are happy to some measure, then she has done something right.

3: Do her children have issues? Most certainly! But, show me one person who doesn't have issues.

Sorry but there are a ton of horrible parenting examples in my life right now, and every last one of them thinks they're doing whats best for their kids at that time. And they all say, "thats the best they can do". Its a cop out.

Cersei's pov's show her motivations as a parent and what comsumes her. She does little to nothing in the best interests of her kids except the easiest thing to do as a parent- keep your kids alive. Im so tired of, " she was protective if her kids", like she gets credit for it.

[Elder Sister]

Sorry but there are a ton of horrible parenting examples in my life right now, and every last one of them thinks they're doing whats best for their kids at that time. And they all say, "thats the best they can do". Its a cop out.

Cersei's pov's show her motivations as a parent and what comsumes her. She does little to nothing in the best interests of her kids except the easiest thing to do as a parent- keep your kids alive. Im so tired of, " she was protective if her kids", like she gets credit for it.

I can't believe we are going to disagree on Cersei...I thought we agreed on everything! :D

[Mulled Wino]

I don't think anyone would argue that Cersei doesn't love her children. And while there is a period of time that both Robert and Cersei are blind to Joffrey's cruelty, it's obvious that she immediately realizes the error in judgement she has made with him, and how viscous he really is. I think at one point, she's actually afraid of Joffrey.

With Tommen, I see Cersei's selfishness, but I also see a mother and a female who has grown up in Tywin Lannister's shadow knowing that being soft or gentle will get you killed. She tries repeatedly to toughen Tommen up. I'm not saying she was right, but I see her reasoning there. I think it's the same thing with Loras. She wanted to remove his influence, because she was afraid he would influence Tommen into becoming 'gay'. Which is ridiculous as we know, but Cersei is nothing if not paranoid.

No, she's not a very good mother. She makes some truly bad decisions and sets her own desires ahead of them in some cases. But it blows my mind how people will twist themselves into a knot to justify and excuse Tyrion, Stannis, and Robert B., yet Cersei and Cat are constantly torn to shreds.

Westeros is hard on anyone who is not the strongest and most heartless, and Cersei is trying to raise kings andmost importantly, keep them alive. Why would she turn the rule of a kingdom over to a boy who is more interested in kittens than battleships? He's a child.

I cannot count how many posts I've seen justifying Stannis burning people, or Tyrion's multiple sins, but Cersei is never painted anything but the darkest, vilest black. It kind of blows my mind, to be honest.

And fans of especially Cat do the same. I see just as irrational defense of her as i do anyone else.

[Elder Sister]

And fans of especially Cat do the same. I see just as irrational defense of her as i do anyone else.

I don't want to derail the thread, but I don't really see how you can equate Stannis', Robert's and Tyrion's actions with Cat's.

But then, I'm one of those Cat defenders. :)

[Mulled Wino]

I can't believe we are going to disagree on Cersei...I thought we agreed on everything! :D

Except cersei and cat. But i dont hate cat, i just think he made a few blunders. I think cat is smart, very smart.

[The Frosted King]

I don't think anyone would argue that Cersei doesn't love her children. And while there is a period of time that both Robert and Cersei are blind to Joffrey's cruelty, it's obvious that she immediately realizes the error in judgement she has made with him, and how viscous he really is. I think at one point, she's actually afraid of Joffrey.

With Tommen, I see Cersei's selfishness, but I also see a mother and a female who has grown up in Tywin Lannister's shadow knowing that being soft or gentle will get you killed. She tries repeatedly to toughen Tommen up. I'm not saying she was right, but I see her reasoning there. I think it's the same thing with Loras. She wanted to remove his influence, because she was afraid he would influence Tommen into becoming 'gay'. Which is ridiculous as we know, but Cersei is nothing if not paranoid.

No, she's not a very good mother. She makes some truly bad decisions and sets her own desires ahead of them in some cases. But it blows my mind how people will twist themselves into a knot to justify and excuse Tyrion, Stannis, and Robert B., yet Cersei and Cat are constantly torn to shreds.

Westeros is hard on anyone who is not the strongest and most heartless, and Cersei is trying to raise kings andmost importantly, keep them alive. Why would she turn the rule of a kingdom over to a boy who is more interested in kittens than battleships? He's a child.

I cannot count how many posts I've seen justifying Stannis burning people, or Tyrion's multiple sins, but Cersei is never painted anything but the darkest, vilest black. It kind of blows my mind, to be honest.

Cersei has only exhibited fear of Joffrey in the show.

In the books, she never comes down on him, and when we finally get a pov from her, we see that she took pride in him, and his "strength". She actually bemoans Tommen his sweetness, rather than Joffs "fire".

And to Wassup.

The best place to be safe, is the last place anyone else wants to be.

Thats why the north did so well in the past.

Nobody wanted it, so they left it alone.

How is Cersei keeping her kids in the place where the targets are squarely on their back the best place for them?

Ned offers her exile and safety for her children.

Jaime thinks that getting away from power is the safest way to keep someone from sending knights to smash their heads against walls.

Just because she thinks its safest, doesn't mean she's not wrong.

Cersei thinks of herself as a lion, and lions don't flee.

But ask Cat if she would've taken her children and fled Winterfell if it meant that they'd be alive and well.

Cat is the definition of a good mother.

Cersei is the epitome of a terrible one.

[mcb]

I don't think anyone would argue that Cersei doesn't love her children. And while there is a period of time that both Robert and Cersei are blind to Joffrey's cruelty, it's obvious that she immediately realizes the error in judgement she has made with him, and how viscous he really is.

Err... what? What?! First, Robert wasn't blind to Joffrey's cruelty. He had absolutely no solution for that (knock the kid's teeth out, and if that doesn't work, then parental neglect all the way), but he was aware. And kindly point out to me a passage in the books when Cersei realized Joffrey wasn't a saint, "immediately" or not. Or one where she admits to herself she has made a mistake. Any mistake.

With Tommen, I see Cersei's selfishness, but I also see a mother and a female who has grown up in Tywin Lannister's shadow knowing that being soft or gentle will get you killed. She tries repeatedly to toughen Tommen up.

Again, no. She tried to crush him. "If His Grace refuses, or says one word of protest, summon Qyburn and tell him to remove Pate’s tongue, so His Grace can learn the cost of insolence." The kid was simply forbidden to have independent thoughts in Cersei's presence. It wasn't about his growth, it was about her ego.

Westeros is hard on anyone who is not the strongest and most heartless, and Cersei is trying to raise kings andmost importantly, keep them alive. Why would she turn the rule of a kingdom over to a boy who is more interested in kittens than battleships? He's a child.

And now it seems you invent the windmill you tilt at. I don't recall anyone ever advocating for letting Tommen rule the realm on his own. Whose argument are you refuting here?

[Betty Amazing]

She's a terrible mother - she pretty much ignored Tommen until she lost Joffrey, and now really she only tolerates him - she is constantly blocking his growth rather than preparing and educating him for his future role. I'd say she has strong motherly instincts - she's concerned about their safety (and the safety of their 'claim'), but she can't really see that she's hurting them herself... and then wonders why they aren't turning out the way she wants them to. x

[Give Cersei some LOVE]

I don't mean that she's right. She is very wrong. But you don't get the point of being Cersei. When you are Cersei, once you have no claws you think its the end of the world. When she flees, she will see everyone as her enemy. She thinks what would she do if someone attacks them and she has no one to protect her. She doesn't know what life is except the life of entitlement and looking down on people.

[TheFlayedMan]

I don't want to derail the thread, but I don't really see how you can equate Stannis', Robert's and Tyrion's actions with Cat's.

But then, I'm one of those Cat defenders. :)

I don't really see how you can find it difficult to believe why people defend Stannis but not Cersei. She has handed many people over to be tortured at the hands of Qyburn without sparing another thought. It is heavily implied she murdered her best friend as a child. The way she treats people in general is rather despicable, and I can't fathom how one can defend her after reading AFfC. She's definitely an interesting character, but her actions are no way justifiable.

Stannis has done some dark deeds when pushed into a corner, but his goal is a righteous one and everything he does is in attempt to achieve this - saving the realm from the Others. He burns people, yes (I dislike this greatly as a Stannis supporter) but the whole Edric Storm fiasco aside, generally it is just another form of execution that seems to provide benefits. He also is the only King to give a shit about protecting his people, evidenced when he answered the Watch's call for help and protected the Wall from the Wildling invasion.

[Give Cersei some LOVE]

and Cersei's goal isn't righteous? You know what they call her children? Monsters. You know what people do to monsters? Kill Them. Now if she gives up because "her goal isn't righteous" would you call that righteous?

[TheFlayedMan]

and Cersei's goal isn't righteous? You know what they call her children? Monsters. You know what people do to monsters? Kill Them. Now if she gives up because "her goal isn't righteous" would you call that righteous?

She didn't have to sire her children with Jaime. That's high treason. I really like (and feel for) Tommen and Myrcella, but Cersei's goal has always been to achieve power. And when did I say her goal isn't righteous anyway (not that it is, but you quoted me saying I did)? I criticised her methods. How is sending innocents to be tortured and murdered, or alienating and fabricating fake charges against allies (using torture and murder, of course) a good way to protect her children?

[The Frosted King]

and Cersei's goal isn't righteous? You know what they call her children? Monsters. You know what people do to monsters? Kill Them. Now if she gives up because "her goal isn't righteous" would you call that righteous?

I can't be sure if you're joking.

They're born of incestous treason between the queen and her brother.

Joffrey didn't do anything to help the cause of the inbred.

His own family believes him to be worthless, and craven, aside from his clearly delusional mother.

Not to mention, that the inbred Lannisters stole the throne that countless good men died to procure. That must be answered.

Ned gave her the option to flee.

She chose to stay, so her life and that of her children are forfeit.

One down, two more to go.

Melisandre needs more leeches, and i'd volunteer blood.

[Elder Sister]

Err... what? What?! First, Robert wasn't blind to Joffrey's cruelty. He had absolutely no solution for that (knock the kid's teeth out, and if that doesn't work, then parental neglect all the way), but he was aware. And kindly point out to me a passage in the books when Cersei realized Joffrey wasn't a saint, "immediately" or not. Or one where she admits to herself she has made a mistake. Any mistake.

Again, no. She tried to crush him. "If His Grace refuses, or says one word of protest, summon Qyburn and tell him to remove Pate’s tongue, so His Grace can learn the cost of insolence." The kid was simply forbidden to have independent thoughts in Cersei's presence. It wasn't about his growth, it was about her ego.

And now it seems you invent the windmill you tilt at. I don't recall anyone ever advocating for letting Tommen rule the realm on his own. Whose argument are you refuting here?

I'm not sure where you get that Robert was aware of Joffrey, other than his existence. At some point, he admits to Ned that he doesnt know what happened with Joffrey, but its obvious he has had no interest in parenting. And Cersei does admit to Tyrion that she is unable to control Joffrey when he arrives at KL.

And why should Tommen have independent thoughts about ruling? He is a child. The whole point, (that I gathered, anyway,) is that Cersei is trying to correct the mistakes she made with Joffrey. I'm not saying that she's right, but I do understand her motive.

Your post is condescending and rude. And it's your opinion, just like my post was my opinion. If you would like to have a thoughtful discussion about Cersei, And her motives, I would love that. If you're going to posture and act like we're talking heads on Fox News, i'm going to have to pass.

[Elder Sister]

I don't really see how you can find it difficult to believe why people defend Stannis but not Cersei. She has handed many people over to be tortured at the hands of Qyburn without sparing another thought. It is heavily implied she murdered her best friend as a child. The way she treats people in general is rather despicable, and I can't fathom how one can defend her after reading AFfC. She's definitely an interesting character, but her actions are no way justifiable.

Stannis has done some dark deeds when pushed into a corner, but his goal is a righteous one and everything he does is in attempt to achieve this - saving the realm from the Others. He burns people, yes (I dislike this greatly as a Stannis supporter) but the whole Edric Storm fiasco aside, generally it is just another form of execution that seems to provide benefits. He also is the only King to give a shit about protecting his people, evidenced when he answered the Watch's call for help and protected the Wall from the Wildling invasion.

I hear what you're saying, but don't really agree. I think Stannis goes to the Wall mainly at Melisandre's prompting, and less out of his own motivation. And I think her agenda is totally different from what she's presenting.

Stannis is not the subject of this thread, but to me, he's just less obvious with his motives than Cersei. He tortures people through burning, cheats on his wife, gives no thought whatsoever to his one child, and murders his brother through the use of black magic.

But we almost never see the amount of hatred aimed at him that we see aimed at Cersei.

[DKNC]

Hmm. I believe that Cersei does love her children, in so far as she has the ability to love. Love for Cersei is a selfish thing--more about her than the object of her affections. She fears for her children's lives and doesn't want to lose them, but she is perfectly willing to use them any way she sees fit. She loves Jamie as well, but thinks of him in terms of what he gives her, not what she can do for him. Jamie's love for her is much more centered on her (icky, though it is, lol).

With Cersei's POV chapters, I gained a certain understanding of what makes her tick, but at the end of it all, she still is incapable of the type of love that makes someone a good mother. Much too selfish at the core.

[TheFlayedMan]

I hear what you're saying, but don't really agree. I think Stannis goes to the Wall mainly at Melisandre's prompting, and less out of his own motivation. And I think her agenda is totally different from what she's presenting.

Stannis is not the subject of this thread, but to me, he's just less obvious with his motives than Cersei. He tortures people through burning, cheats on his wife, gives no thought whatsoever to his one child, and murders his brother through the use of black magic.

But we almost never see the amount of hatred aimed at him that we see aimed at Cersei.

I understand that Stannis isn't the topic at discussion, but I can't help defending him. I'm not blind to his faults, but I believe that the main reason people defend Stan over characters such as Cersei is that he seems to be doing things for the greater good. It's made clear he doesn't desire the throne for power alone, but for duty to the realm. He went to the Wall on Davos's prompting not Melisandre's, if you recall from ASoS. And in TWoW sample chapter, Sannis orders his men to continue fighting to place Shireen on the throne should he die, so he does think and care for her.

Cersei, on the other hand, wants power for her and her children for the sole reason of having power. While Stannis protects the Wall, she plots to interfere with the Watch by murdering Jon and putting a Lannister supporter in charge. She abuses power as well, as seen throughout AFfC.