Vaccines

[slothman92]

Second, Min's response was to the comment that thimersol is a mercury based compound and that having it in your system surely isn't a good thing. It's an ignorant thing to say, since we consume mercury regularly through our diet. The trick is whether the amount reaches a dangerous level. That is why the USDA issues guidelines on how many of what types of fish is safe to consume each year without reaching dangerous levels of mercury accumulation in our bodies. The amount of mercury that was in vaccines is negligible compared to regular environmental exposures.

Sorry about the flame. So my question is why was thimersol removed from vaccines if the is no evedence it is harmufl in those doses?

[Merentha]

Sorry about the flame. So my question is why was thimersol removed from vaccines if the is no evedence it is harmufl in those doses?

From uptodate (which may require a registration, I'm not sure. I apologize if so)

At such low doses, the only identified risk of thimerosal in humans has been a hypersensitivity reaction [23,24].

In 1999, the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) released a statement that some infants who received thimerosal-containing vaccines at multiple visits could potentially receive cumulative doses of ethylmercury that would exceed Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) guidelines for methylmercury [25,26]. After the release of this statement, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) and the US Public Health Service (USPHS) issued a joint statement recommending that thimerosal-containing vaccines be reduced or eliminated [27]. The statement also recommended that, until thimerosal-free hepatitis B vaccines were available, the first dose of hepatitis B vaccine for infants of mothers seronegative for hepatitis B surface antigen (HBsAg) be delayed until the infants reached two to six months of age [27,28].

The AAP/USPHS recommendation was taken as a precautionary measure, since there was no evidence of any harm caused by the low levels of mercury in the vaccines [29]. An advisory committee to the World Health Organization in a 2002 report concluded that the continued use of thimerosal in vaccines was safe, particularly in developing countries

https://sremote.pitt...ectedTitle=1~68

Basically, because there was an easy alternative and the other option would lead to fewer people getting vaccinated, which is a very bad thing.

edit: To compound this further, the potential cumulative doses were for ethyl mercury, whereas the guidelines being exceeded were for methyl mercury. I'm not aware of any difference, but it can be significant. Compare ethyl and methyl alcohols, for example. One is the delicious substance we all need more of right now, the other blinds and kills you fairly rapidly.

edit2: read more. Methylmercury's halflife is 50 days and it interacts with the nervous system much more readily than ethyl mercury, which has a halflife of 7 days.

[RWHamel]

Re: RWHamel

So we are resolutely exiting the domain of science, then, with this logic?

You know what else there's no proof of that it is not the cause for autism? Sunlight. The increase in autism cases coincide with the weakening of ozone, you see. And since we have no proof that sunlight is NOT the cause for autism, then we must take precaution and keep our kids in a windowless box forever. It's only prudent.

Cites to these studies, then?

Re: Slothman

First, this is your freebie for being new here - you cannot call someone an idiot; it's called a flame. Do it again and your post will likely get deleted.

Second, Min's response was to the comment that thimersol is a mercury based compound and that having it in your system surely isn't a good thing. It's an ignorant thing to say, since we consume mercury regularly through our diet. The trick is whether the amount reaches a dangerous level. That is why the USDA issues guidelines on how many of what types of fish is safe to consume each year without reaching dangerous levels of mercury accumulation in our bodies. The amount of mercury that was in vaccines is negligible compared to regular environmental exposures.

You getting a dose of mercury is a lot different than a one year old getting a dose of mercury. Your brain is fully developed, and probably on the downward slope. Where a one year old's is still changing and growing.

And as for you comment about us leaving the realms of science. Studies that are supported through grants from big medical companies, and big pharmaceutical companies that have a vested interest in those studies going their way, and are then reported on by the press who get large amounts of money through advertising from those companies. I would say we left science a long time ago, and entered the area of propaganda.

[Res ipsa loquitur]

When you combine vaccines such as the MMR, you have to add preservative adjuvants. One such adjuvant was Thimerosal which is Mercury based. It doesn't take a genius to know that anything mercury base is an unfriendly substance. They could have given three separate shots without the preservative, but they save a buck by combining it. There's nothing like profit at your expense.

I never said anything about alluminum being bad you snarky idiot, my comment was that it does not matter that they took thimerosal out of vaccines becasue they replaced it with a similar substance. And I do not believe that thimerosal caued autsim either, but the poster was implying that they did by informing everyone that it was removed.

BTW why was it removed if there was no evedence for harmful effetcs?

Sorry about the flame. So my question is why was thimersol removed from vaccines if the is no evedence it is harmufl in those doses?

Thimersol was removed from many vaccines not because it is harmful but because public pressure and outrage over the false mercury autism link demanded its removal. MMR vaccine is far easier on the child given as one versus three separate injections. Perhaps you have never held down screaming struggling crying children...the less shots, the better. For all involved.

[Merentha]

And as for you comment about us leaving the realms of science. Studies that are supported through grants from big medical companies, and big pharmaceutical companies that have a vested interest in those studies going their way, and are then reported on by the press who get large amounts of money through advertising from those companies. I would say we left science a long time ago, and entered the area of propaganda.

Press? What press? I'm reading scientific papers. The press started this nonsense by giving McCarthy a platform on which to speak.

[TerraPrime]

You getting a dose of mercury is a lot different than a one year old getting a dose of mercury. Your brain is fully developed, and probably on the downward slope. Where a one year old's is still changing and growing.

I accept that it is possible that a neonate's neurosystem has a higher sensitivity level to mercury-based compound than adult brains do.

So, where's the evidence for this?

Oh wait, never mind, you don't trust studies, especially ones that contradict your own opinions, any way.

So I guess I will just take your words for it, yes?

And as for you comment about us leaving the realms of science. Studies that are supported through grants from big medical companies, and big pharmaceutical companies that have a vested interest in those studies going their way, and are then reported on by the press who get large amounts of money through advertising from those companies. I would say we left science a long time ago, and entered the area of propaganda.

The vast majority of scientific reports are actually funded by government monies in the U.S. Journals also request disclosure on conflicts of interests when you submit a manuscript for consideration. There are safeguards in place to maintain the impartiality and faithfulness of studies because it is in the best interest of science to minimize flawed studies from being published. The safeguarding system is not 100% efficient and if people try hard enough, they can circumvent these steps.

So if this is the basis for you to write off published studies, then it's your call. It seems utterly unreasonable to me, but hey, it's your life.

[Merentha]

So if this is the basis for you to write off published studies, then it's your call. It seems utterly unreasonable to me, but hey, it's your life.

But it isn't just his life. Its the life of his kid and the herd immunity we all ultimately rely on.

[Ser Greguh]

You getting a dose of mercury is a lot different than a one year old getting a dose of mercury. Your brain is fully developed, and probably on the downward slope. Where a one year old's is still changing and growing.

And as for you comment about us leaving the realms of science. Studies that are supported through grants from big medical companies, and big pharmaceutical companies that have a vested interest in those studies going their way, and are then reported on by the press who get large amounts of money through advertising from those companies. I would say we left science a long time ago, and entered the area of propaganda.

Ah yes, the good old standby "It's possible to manipulate research, therefore all research is suspect and therefore I'm just gonna believe what I'm gonna believe" brand of justifying a departure from rationality. Personally I think the rise in autism is causally linked to the decline in pirates. Prove me wrong motherfuckers!

I don't think anyone's trying to say that all concerns regarding vaccines are ipso facto invalid, just that the vast majority of anti-vaccine sentiments are the direct result of a study whose results were determined to have been fabricated, and whose author was making an overt attempt to manufacture those sentiments for his own financial gain; he quite literally invented a disease with the intent to set himself up as holding the cure, the oldest scam in the book, and while he was caught before he could profit, his invention of the disease worked spectacularly, and its results are very much present in this thread and in medical clinics throughout the country and world, to the extreme frustration of medical professionals of all sorts.

[TerraPrime]

But it isn't just his life. Its the life of his kid and the herd immunity we all ultimately rely on.

I know.

But it's the price we pay for a society that is not 100% authoritarian. We allow our fellow citizens the freedom to commit acts that can actually harm us, from refusing to vaccinate to driving fuel-inefficient cars. Public health policies weigh the costs and benefits and in some cases, we over-ride someone's civil liberty, such as when we impose quarantine on people infected with dangerous and highly infectious diseases. In general, though, we err on the side of freedom, especially in this country.

Look no further than the outcry over legislating trans-fat or the size of soda drinks to see how low a tolerance people in this country have in terms of government regulations on their daily activities. This means that while I think it'd be great to have mandatory vaccinations, it will never happen. So we just got to live with the consequences and hope to persuade more people to vaccinate. There will always be people like RWHamel or what's-his-name-new-person-here or Jenny McCarthy's of the world, just like there will be people buying crystal-diluted water for their healing powers.

[RWHamel]

Yeah, well why don't you run down to the nearest hospital, and get your gardasil shot, and then ask for the full battery of what a one to six year old gets. There's nothing stopping you from doing that, and it's just as good for you.

And as for me, I'm probably one of the most vaccinated people for my generation. :)

[Guest Raidne]

You know, I posted a whole bunch of scientific data. And yet nobody is addressing it. Precisely the phenomena I'm talking about.

Look the Institute of Medicine Immunization Safety Review Committee found that further research on the possible occurrence of autism in a small number of children subsequent to MMR vaccination is warranted because it could not exclude the possibility that MMR vaccine could contribute to autism in a small number of children.

You'd think the response to that would involve something like looking into which children might be so affected, what the current state of that research is (since the report is from 2004) and posting it to the thread, but no. Why is this? Why is it better to just post the same dismissive insults you've posted the last dozen times this subject has come up? Don't you get bored writing it?

[TerraPrime]

Yeah, well why don't you run down to the nearest hospital, and get your gardasil shot, and then ask for the full battery of what a one to six year old gets. There's nothing stopping you from doing that, and it's just as good for you.

And as for me, I'm probably one the most vaccinated people for my generation. :)

I've been fully vaccinated, and I've gotten some shots in redundancy due to paperwork issues when I came to the U.S. I've also kept up with new vaccines such as the hepatitis ones, which were not available to me when I was younger. If I were just starting my sexually active phase, I would probably also get the HPV vaccine.

But thanks for your concerns. I, and others who vaccinate like I do, are happy to provide the herd immunity that helps safeguard the children of parents who refuse to vaccinate them. I mean, not having to fear contracting polio or measles is great, but the added bonus of protecting children whose parents don't want to protect them, or who are misguided into thinking that vaccination is worse than the alternative, is nice, too. I can't often do much to save children born into religious households like Christian Scientists or 7th Day Adventists, but at least for the children of the non-vaccinationers I can offer some low level of help!

[Guest Raidne]

...the vast majority of anti-vaccine sentiments are the direct result of a study whose results were determined to have been fabricated, and whose author was making an overt attempt to manufacture those sentiments for his own financial gain...

In other words, yes, we know. Since it's not relevant to the discussion here, can we please talk about some other aspect of vaccines and their possible dangers, such as those that have been posited or shown by reputable scientists that are posted in the thread?

[Guest Raidne]

I, and others who vaccinate like I do, are happy to provide the herd immunity that helps safeguard the children of parents who refuse to vaccinate them.

Suggesting that we forego the adjuvant effect or spread out vaccinations is a suggestion that bystander cell destruction concerns might warrant listening to children cry and scream more often and/or decreasing the overall effectiveness of vaccines on a per dose basis.

It is NOT a suggestion that people stop vaccinating their children. Seriously, what is this phenomena? No other subject raises this kind of righteous obtuseness. I would like this explained.

[TheValyrianDragonlord]

It is NOT a suggestion that people stop vaccinating their children. Seriously, what is this phenomena? No other subject raises this kind of righteous obtuseness. I would like this explained.

I think your concerns are warranted. But scientists and docs are handling it. The reason this topic provokes such response is that anti vaccers have done an incredible amount of damage. we're seeing diseases return that should have remained stamped out. My friend who is training to be a physician is a pretty even keeled person but nothing gets him to froth with rage faster than antivaccers.

Policy recommendations like tweaking vaccination schedules should provoke healthy debate between scientists. Instead you get get rhamel and slothman derailing stuff.

[Ixodes]

You know, I posted a whole bunch of scientific data. And yet nobody is addressing it. Precisely the phenomena I'm talking about.

I'm ignorant of stats on the human side, but in veterinary medicine the largest to date study on adverse events from immunization showed a correlation between number of vaccines administered and chance for adverse events. This makes sense since you are stimulating the immune system with a higher number of antigens. In pets with a predisposition to vaccine reactions I recommend we space out the shots. This comes a price, though. You have more needle sticks (short term discomfort) and more trips to the clinic (for most working people this is a very real concern). The bottom line is that when we modify our recommendations to make them less convenient we get lower compliance. Is it better to do them at once while you have opportunity or spread them out, knowing that your compliance will be lower? Tough call sometimes.

Immunology is a complicated subject. We have the luxury of living in a time where you and I won't have to live through a major rubella outbreak, watching school kids die, but this comes at a price of some individuals getting harmed by the same tools that save thousands of lives. I guess this doesn't give the kid who has an immune reaction much comfort.

[RWHamel]

I've been fully vaccinated, and I've gotten some shots in redundancy due to paperwork issues when I came to the U.S. I've also kept up with new vaccines such as the hepatitis ones, which were not available to me when I was younger. If I were just starting my sexually active phase, I would probably also get the HPV vaccine.

But thanks for your concerns. I, and others who vaccinate like I do, are happy to provide the herd immunity that helps safeguard the children of parents who refuse to vaccinate them. I mean, not having to fear contracting polio or measles is great, but the added bonus of protecting children whose parents don't want to protect them, or who are misguided into thinking that vaccination is worse than the alternative, is nice, too. I can't often do much to save children born into religious households like Christian Scientists or 7th Day Adventists, but at least for the children of the non-vaccinationers I can offer some low level of help!

Thank you for being the ablative armor for everyone else.

[TheRaggedWildling]

I, for one, would much rather have my child get vaccinated and POSSIBLY develop autism than die a horrid, tragic death from shitty disease that could have been easily prevented with a needle and some tears. But that's just me. Keep shining on, you crazy diamond.

[Merentha]

You know, I posted a whole bunch of scientific data. And yet nobody is addressing it. Precisely the phenomena I'm talking about.

Look the Institute of Medicine Immunization Safety Review Committee found that further research on the possible occurrence of autism in a small number of children subsequent to MMR vaccination is warranted because it could not exclude the possibility that MMR vaccine could contribute to autism in a small number of children.

You'd think the response to that would involve something like looking into which children might be so affected, what the current state of that research is (since the report is from 2004) and posting it to the thread, but no. Why is this? Why is it better to just post the same dismissive insults you've posted the last dozen times this subject has come up? Don't you get bored writing it?

Wait, the same IoM Immunization Safety Review that said: "The committee concludes that the body of epidemiological evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between the MMR vaccine and autism. The committee also concludes that the body of epidemiological evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism. The committee further finds that potential biological mechanisms for vaccine-induced autism that have been generated to date are theoretical only.

The committee does not recommend a policy review of the current schedule and recommendations for the administration of either the MMR vaccine or thimerosal-containing vaccines. The committee recommends a public health response that fully supports an array of vaccine safety activities." -http://www.iom.edu/R...and-Autism.aspx

There is a theoretical possibility, which was the same theoretical possibility that was used to start the original Lancet paper in the first place. Namely, that methylmercury does produce symptoms similar to autism-spectrum disorders in high amounts and that ethyl and methyl mercuries are similar in structure, though ethylmercury breaks down almost seven times faster.

edit: Which basically means that until someone decides to look at what ethylmercury does to infant brains in what is undoubtedly going to be a very tricky experiment, that little disclaimer will have to be in there. But hold on, let me read the 214p paper you linked without much context.

[RWHamel]

Meh, according to you guys there must of been thousands who died between the ages of 1 to 5 in the 60's and 70's. It's strange that I have no recollection of this. As I recall, the big concern was for young expectant mothers for measles, and adult men who hadn't gotten the mumps as children. I never got the measles, because I was probably vaccinated for it it 1963, not because there was an epidemic that year, but because the military told my mother that her kids should get the same vaccinations they were giving my father just before he was stationed overseas. Since my father was stationed to the far east 3 time before 1970, I was well vaccinated. I think 3 times for smallpox for instance.

So this idea 1 year olds need to be inoculated for all this stuff just boggles my mind. So produce the documentation that this is necessary before the age of 5 please. You want to support your position go ahead, because it seems to me that all you have done so far is pull shit out of your butts.