Queer Eye for the White Knight

[Silmarien]

Oh I completely agree with this. I'm not suggesting we should see lesbian relationships in the series or that it's wrong that we don't, its fitting for the time period. A lot of women couldn't even act on their desires for men, never mind if they actually desired women.

Except Brienne. And Arya.

I'm sure they weren't the first to buck societal norms like they do...

[Lady Storm]

Except Brienne. And Arya.

I'm sure they weren't the first to buck societal norms like they do...

But Brienne isn't acting on her desires for men, an Arya has none.

Also, Arya was being punished for defying norms, and Brienne is being ridiculed for it constantly.

Brienne's biggest sin is not being feminine enough, something that is only partially under her control.

And the only reason Arya is allowed to act as a boy is because her father lets her (and lyes to people that she's having dancing lessons), and afterwards they disguise her as a boy. Then she gets to a gender-roles-free group.

[mythsandstuff]

(snip)

Exactly - we know because we can read it from her POV. Renly might be the same thing. He might not, and it might be a part of the plot, but we cannot really tell how he sees himself.

Is the issue preference or coding? I would argue that with Renley, we know because it's coded in the text, and ignoring that coding a. is awfully convenient and b. further marginalizes the stories of characters who might be marginalized in the text through coding (i.e. if coding isn't a valid source of evidence, how do we even have this discussion?).

We have no evidence of Renley "praying" with anyone other than Loras (his widow's suitability as a bride rests on this premise, though they were married long enough). This at least suggests preference. We also have evidence of the Blackfish's preference: he ran away rather than marry, as his brother wished.

Well, some people comment on it rudely.

And I don't see any shame with Cersei (some with Dany).

And Taena's husband doesn't seem to object her sleeping with Cersei (perhaps he doesn't know, but it is somewhat odd). Because Taena is not a lesbian - she couldn't be (from his perspective).

We have clear text for this being Cersei's first lesbian experience. AFfC 480 (according to Kindle):

Cersei wondered what it would feel like to kiss another woman. Not lightly on the cheek, as was common courtesy amongst ladies of high birth, but full upon the lips. Taena's lips were very full. she wondered what it would feel like to suckle on those breasts, to lay the Myrish woman on her back and push her legs apart and use her as a man would use her..."

At least for Cersei, sex with bedmates is not common practice.

I don't think she compares it, not in a sense that a free woman would.

And no, desire stays desire and love is still love. But the way you interpret it is not the same.

When you meet a new person, assuming you "clicked" from the start, you kind of have special dynamic. You are concerned with what she'll think of you, you want to spend time together but don't want to turn out as clingy, you hang out a lot etc.

Now, if this person is the "wrong" sex for you, it'll develop in a friendship, if not, it might develop into a relationship.

Now imagine the "wright/wrong" sex as being a completely external category (and sex for women in general is, in this setting). Not as in "being gay is wrong", but as completely ignoring the fact that there is such a thing as female homosexuality. That kind of messes up you perception of what is going on with you and your desires. As I recall, Dany came while having sex with Irri, I don't remember her coming with Drogo, although she (and I) believe she loved him and she does enjoy sex with him sometimes.

The sex with Irri happened because Jorah kissed Dany, she started thinking about men, she started masturbating, and Irri considered it her job to finish (ASoS 268). Later, Dany says to herself: "It is Drogo I want, my sun-and-stars, Dany reminded herself. Not Irri, and not Ser Jorah" (269).

One could also argue that it's the first time she's masturbated, and might be the first time she's come at all, but that this is a result of her discovery of her own clitoris. The text seems to imply she might argue that.*

Edit: *make that argument.

[ermireallydontcare]

Except Brienne. And Arya.

I'm sure they weren't the first to buck societal norms like they do...

Of course there are women who don't fit into societies norms, but the majority do.

Also can we please, please not automatically associate tomboy-ness or being unfeminine with being lesbian. (Personal pet peeve of mine!)

[Lady Storm]

Is the issue preference or coding? I would argue that with Renley, we know because it's coded in the text, and ignoring that coding a. is awfully convenient and b. further marginalizes the stories of characters who might be marginalized in the text through coding (i.e. if coding isn't a valid source of evidence, how do we even have this discussion?).

We have no evidence of Renley "praying" with anyone other than Loras (his widow's suitability as a bride rests on this premise, though they were married long enough). This at least suggests preference. We also have evidence of the Blackfish's preference: he ran away rather than marry, as his brother wished.

I don't think it's ignoring the coding as long as we acknowledge that he did indeed "pray" with Loras.

But the fact that he has sex with Loras and possibly (probably) loves Loras does not make him necessarily gay, especially not under the today's norm of what being gay is.

He might have slept with Maergery, but even if he didn't, he eventually would to produce a heir. And I don't think that would be(come) his preferred option, but I also don't think he would vomit while doing it.

That does not make him less in love with Loras, but it does kind of put a shift on what we consider gay is.

(And ftr - I don't consider men who have a regular sexual life with a women but occasionally have sex with men gay, or vice versa. I think our society is setting unhealthy rules for what gay or straight means and it causes a lot of confusion and trauma for people.)

We have clear text for this being Cersei's first lesbian experience. AFfC 480 (according to Kindle):

...

At least for Cersei, sex with bedmates is not common practice.

I don't get the impression she had bedmates, aside from the men she slept with. About this one, she was curious. Why is not a question we can fully answer, and I simply prefer not to ready it from a perspective what it would mean for me or you to decide to sleep with a woman.

The sex with Irri happened because Jorah kissed Dany, she started thinking about men, she started masturbating, and Irri considered it her job to finish (ASoS 268). Later, Dany says to herself: "It is Drogo I want, my sun-and-stars, Dany reminded herself. Not Irri, and not Ser Jorah" (269).

One could also argue that it's the first time she's masturbated, and might be the first time she's come at all, but that this is a result of her discovery of her own clitoris. The text seems to imply she might argue that.

Well frankly, the whole idea that she needs to remind herself is kind of odd to me, but that's not the point i wanted to make.

I don't think Dany is a lesbian. In fact, I think she's either bi, falls more in the queer category, or is simply undefined at the moment. She is a child, after all, and is only discovering sex. We won't know for a while, but Dany has the benefit of being able to really experiment with her sexuality (although even she needs to marry) freely.

That's why I read the whole thing as empowering, even tough it's not really pretty, and might be interpreted as "She just want a penis".

And while the lack of clearly lesbian characters is noticeable (at least in comparison to the ones most people consider to be gay), I don't see it as a necessary step-back, or the lesbian scenes as (male) crowd pleasers.

[mythsandstuff]

Lady Storm,

You make a good point re: ascribing our own visions of sexuality to the characters, but I remain confused about how, exactly, we have discussions about representations of sexuality in the text if we can't identify sexual orientation as it's represented in the text. In other words, your point that the text might be presenting a variety of points on a continuum of sexuality is valid, but there's no textual evidence, coded or otherwise, to suggest Renly lies anywhere on that continuum besides with Loras (the text doesn't have him producing an heir) and ample textual evidence that, despite lesbian experiences, Dany and Cersei are at points on the spectrum that represent them as experimenters who prefer men. I know it sounds like I'm belaboring the point, but to me, the text is the point.

[Sevumar]

Well frankly, the whole idea that she needs to remind herself is kind of odd to me, but that's not the point i wanted to make.

I don't think Dany is a lesbian. In fact, I think she's either bi, falls more in the queer category, or is simply undefined at the moment. She is a child, after all, and is only discovering sex. We won't know for a while, but Dany has the benefit of being able to really experiment with her sexuality (although even she needs to marry) freely.

That's why I read the whole thing as empowering, even tough it's not really pretty, and might be interpreted as "She just want a penis".

Even if Dany just does, "want a penis" in that passage, isn't it normal for teenagers of both genders to explore their sexuality? A good number of people who grow up to identify as gay or straight have encounters with people of the same gender during this part of their lives. In high school, we giggle about summer camp and band camp stories, but the common thread there is that when teenagers are alone, their natural inclination is to explore, often trying things that won't become permanent behaviors/preferences.

I don't see any problem with this scene as written. After having been celibate for that long, it seems natural that Dany might turn to any available outlet for release. In prison, men and women who do not consider themselves gay or bi often end up in sexual relationships with same-gendered prisoners precisely because of the lack of an outlet for expressing their natural sexuality.

And while the lack of clearly lesbian characters is noticeable (at least in comparison to the ones most people consider to be gay), I don't see it as a necessary step-back, or the lesbian scenes as (male) crowd pleasers.

I didn't notice any "lack" of lesbian characters when I was reading the books, but I also wasn't keeping count. Martin's world is populated with so many well-characterized and varied kinds of people that it doesn't occur to me to go through the text with a checklist looking for people displaying specific traits (sexuality, skin color, hand-preference, etc). This kind of criticism has always puzzled me.

[oakenhelm]

I don't think you are understanding the larger point here. The reason why Tarly believes his son to be inadequate has everything to do with the heteronormative compulsions of that society which require men to have stereotypical masculine traits and women to be the virtual opposite. Sam might not be capable of fighting and wielding a sword, but he's no dummy who can't hold a position of leadership. We see this when he's at the Wall and now as he's gone to become a maester.

Again, not true. Those are precisely the reasons Tarly is mean to Sam. He likes to read - which of course in Tarly's mind is an occupation suited for women, and I think he used to like to sing as well. Sam is capable of being responsible and could have been a suitable heir. Tarly denies him this simply because he does not conform to masculine gender norms.

But does Lord Tarly's views reflect the realm as a whole? I think not. Otherwise, nobody would respect the words of a maester or septon.

Based on his comments toward Brienne, Tarly may have disowned her if she were his daughter. But not because he thinks she is a lesbian.

[brashcandy]

But does Lord Tarly's views reflect the realm as a whole? I think not. Otherwise, nobody would respect the words of a maester or septon.

Based on his comments toward Brienne, Tarly may have disowned her if she were his daughter. But not because he thinks she is a lesbian.

He doesn't necessarily think Sam is gay either, he just has no use for him if he cannot fulfil the hypermasculine qualities that Tarly desires in a son, much less an heir. And my point was not that maesters and septons are not respected, but it's a fact that these men do not represent the patriarchal ideal of masculinity. Sam's lack of physical toughness causes Tarly to completely disregard the idea that his son might be good at something else. He sends him to the NW, which is universally regarded (at least now) as a dead end trash heap for unwanted relatives, criminals and other societal rejects. Assuming that Tarly merely rejects his son because he wasn't fit to be an heir is seriously missing the underlying heteropatriarchy that informs the thinking of men like Tarly.

[Silmarien]

Of course there are women who don't fit into societies norms, but the majority do.

Also can we please, please not automatically associate tomboy-ness or being unfeminine with being lesbian. (Personal pet peeve of mine!)

I wasn't saying they were lesbian!

ETA: Anymore than people arguing about Sam are saying he's gay.

ETA2: grammar

[Sevumar]

He doesn't necessarily think Sam is gay either, he just has no use for him if he cannot fulfil the hypermasculine qualities that Tarly desires in a son, much less an heir... Assuming that Tarly merely rejects his son because he wasn't fit to be an heir is seriously missing the underlying heteropatriarchy that informs the thinking of men like Tarly.

Tarly seems like an outlier even among the men of his own society. He takes the norms to an extreme in his expression of them. He's a man who is powerful and feared, who comes from the "right" kind of lineage, and who isn't afraid to employ alarming levels of brutality to get what he desires. At the same time, he plays by the rules just enough so that he's a valued ally instead of an enemy. In a lot of ways, he resembles Roose Bolton, but his cruelty is much more out in the open where it can augment his reputation. He's dangerous and he could yet become a kingmaker if the Tyrells should fall.

The truth is that Westerosi society is shot through with brutality and unfairness. Men and women alike have few choices in their lives, but men have a few more options on the whole. It's extremely uncomfortable for anyone who isn't ready or willing to play their prescribed role, whether we're speaking of sex or anything else.

I think it's important to keep in mind that many of the attitudes and practices in Westerosi society stem from the fact that tolerance and diversity are luxuries that this type of society really can't afford. I'd love to see a Westeros that has room for people of all sexual orientations, career interests, and ethnic groups, but I think the development of that kind of society is largely dependent on technological and social progress that comes with not living a subsistence lifestyle and not devoting so many of one's resources to just ensuring that the chores get done and that there's a next generation to carry on the name.

[Silmarien]

Tarly seems like an outlier even among the men of his own society. He takes the norms to an extreme in his expression of them. He's a man who is powerful and feared, who comes from the "right" kind of lineage, and who isn't afraid to employ alarming levels of brutality to get what he desires. At the same time, he plays by the rules just enough so that he's a valued ally instead of an enemy. In a lot of ways, he resembles Roose Bolton, but his cruelty is much more out in the open where it can augment his reputation. He's dangerous and he could yet become a kingmaker if the Tyrells should fall.

The truth is that Westerosi society is shot through with brutality and unfairness. Men and women alike have few choices in their lives, but men have a few more options on the whole. It's extremely uncomfortable for anyone who isn't ready or willing to play their prescribed role, whether we're speaking of sex or anything else.

I think it's important to keep in mind that many of the attitudes and practices in Westerosi society stem from the fact that tolerance and diversity are luxuries that this type of society really can't afford. I'd love to see a Westeros that has room for people of all sexual orientations, career interests, and ethnic groups, but I think the development of that kind of society is largely dependent on technological and social progress that comes with not living a subsistence lifestyle and not devoting so many of one's resources to just ensuring that the chores get done and that there's a next generation to carry on the name.

Well if you look at Westeros as a whole, it is really diverse, though.

The women of Bear Island dress in armor and train and use weapons, this is seen as "weird" by the men in the South, and Northern men, but it's certainly tolerated.

The North seems to be more accepting of bucking gender norms than the South, I'll say that.

Then we have Dorne where inheritance laws are equal primogeniture. And it's okay for women to have more sexual freedom, and men to have paramours. It's also more acceptable to be a bastard (see the Sand Snakes and Oberyn's mistress).

The South seems to have the most unbendable norms, IMHO.

[mythsandstuff]

I didn't notice any "lack" of lesbian characters when I was reading the books, but I also wasn't keeping count. Martin's world is populated with so many well-characterized and varied kinds of people that it doesn't occur to me to go through the text with a checklist looking for people displaying specific traits (sexuality, skin color, hand-preference, etc). This kind of criticism has always puzzled me.

Me neither. I didn't notice it until I started writing my first post in this thread. Which, for me, is the beauty of having a space to explore ideas and texts in collaboration with others, but YMMV.

[Sevumar]

Well if you look at Westeros as a whole, it is really diverse, though.

...

The South seems to have the most unbendable norms, IMHO.

Agreed. When I was speaking about diversity, I meant more on an individual level, instead of on the regional one. A society where vastly different kinds of people can have roles, acceptance, and ways to improve themselves without discrimination.

[brashcandy]

Tarly seems like an outlier even among the men of his own society. He takes the norms to an extreme in his expression of them. He's a man who is powerful and feared, who comes from the "right" kind of lineage, and who isn't afraid to employ alarming levels of brutality to get what he desires. At the same time, he plays by the rules just enough so that he's a valued ally instead of an enemy. In a lot of ways, he resembles Roose Bolton, but his cruelty is much more out in the open where it can augment his reputation. He's dangerous and he could yet become a kingmaker if the Tyrells should fall.

I agree that in any consideration of fathers in Westeros, Tarly occupies a more extreme corner, however, I still believe that he's fairly representative of the patriarchal attitude within Westeros. Compare him to men like Roose Bolton, Tywin Lannister, and Robert Baratheon, and a disturbing trend emerges.

The truth is that Westerosi society is shot through with brutality and unfairness. Men and women alike have few choices in their lives, but men have a few more options on the whole. It's extremely uncomfortable for anyone who isn't ready or willing to play their prescribed role, whether we're speaking of sex or anything else.

Yes, this is true, but as you noted, men have more options on the whole. Even when it comes to something like sexuality, there are organizations like the KG or pursuing a career as a knight which still allows for advancement, prestige and power outside of traditional marriage. Even the NW, as lowly as it has become, still has the sense of brotherhood and pride in duty and service. Where are the comparable orders for women? But what of women? Becoming a septa or silent sister? The portrayal of these roles by Martin hasn't exactly been very flattering.

I think it's important to keep in mind that many of the attitudes and practices in Westerosi society stem from the fact that tolerance and diversity are luxuries that this type of society really can't afford. I'd love to see a Westeros that has room for people of all sexual orientations, career interests, and ethnic groups, but I think the development of that kind of society is largely dependent on technological and social progress that comes with not living a subsistence lifestyle and not devoting so many of one's resources to just ensuring that the chores get done and that there's a next generation to carry on the name.

All this is true, but we have to bear in mind that Westeros is a fictional place. Martin is creating this world, and it's up to him to do a fair job in terms of the representation of minorities and marginalised sexualities. The work and the world he's created are both large enough in scope for him to attend to these deficiencies. And critiquing the lack of lesbian identities within a text which arguably exploits lesbian sexuality for gratuitous purposes is a worthy endeavour IMHO.

[mythsandstuff]

I think it's important to keep in mind that many of the attitudes and practices in Westerosi society stem from the fact that tolerance and diversity are luxuries that this type of society really can't afford. I'd love to see a Westeros that has room for people of all sexual orientations, career interests, and ethnic groups, but I think the development of that kind of society is largely dependent on technological and social progress that comes with not living a subsistence lifestyle and not devoting so many of one's resources to just ensuring that the chores get done and that there's a next generation to carry on the name.

I'd love to see an America like that. I'm also interested in the ways that GRRM may be using the novels to critique, albeit indirectly, elements of our culture that probably should have changed, as you mention, once we moved beyond subsistence. For example, the Dany in Mereen episode might serve as a critique of imperialism (or not - but I enjoy thinking about it in either case). But in order to determine if representations of sexuality in the books fit into the category of critique, I have to look at them in detail, and consider not just the context of the society he writes, but also the one he writes in, if that makes sense - the context of Westeros is important, but I'm also concerned with the cultural context in which he is writing and I am reading.

Edited to fix HTML tags.

[Accio Euron]

I'm not sure many women in Westeros society would ever really be able to explore their sexuality at all. Think about it. Young girls are expected to be chaste and remain a maid until they are married. Meanwhile no such expectation seems to apply to the males. Women are then married off to a man not of their choosing for the sole purpose of securing political alliances. Sex is a duty they are expected to perform in order to produce children. They are expected to remain faithful while their husbands seem to be free to do as they please. As long as they are somewhat discreet. Even father a bastard or two. Remember, Catelyn wasn't so upset at Ned for having an affair and having a son with another woman. She was upset at him for rubbing her nose in it by bringing Jon home to be raised alongside her children. I really don't see how most women would be able to develop any kind of sexual identity.

I agree completely. If we are being historically correct, this was the time period. Often it is hard to keep our modern thinking separate from the mind frames of the times before us. This is way after GRRM's timeline, but in the days of Queen Victoria's reign, men who engaged in "homosexual acts" were imprisoned (ex. Oscar Wilde) and it was believed at that women did not have homosexual desires. It's silly to think about now.

As for GRRM's portrayal of gay and lesbian characters they are subtle. I was happy to know that there were several types of females in the series with a voice, motivations and weaknesses to match their strengths. I would love to see a lesbian character as much as I would love to see a person of color with a point of view, but I do not want this POC or gay character to be a token sidekick who serves little to no purpose, but is thrown in for equalities sake. I would love to see an influential character who is strong, suffers from weaknesses the same way as any white male character would, but has great strengths and they just happen to be a lesbian or a person of color.

Does that make any sense? If I wasn't clear on my points, please let me know.

The fantasy genre is expanding it's territories, but speaking as a pansexual partially black female, I would love to see more people who look like me fighting in battle, taming dragons and being Lords and Lady's of their House and not the servant or some background character who is thrown in to "shut up" people. Just like finding out the only dark skinned female (so far, I am not completely caught up yet) is a prostitute.

Yeah, that was really cute. :rolleyes:

[Sevumar]

Yes, this is true, but as you noted, men have more options on the whole. Even when it comes to something like sexuality, there are organizations like the KG or pursuing a career as a knight which still allows for advancement, prestige and power outside of traditional marriage. Even the NW, as lowly as it has become, still has the sense of brotherhood and pride in duty and service. Where are the comparable orders for women? But what of women? Becoming a septa or silent sister? The portrayal of these roles by Martin hasn't exactly been very flattering.

No, the few choices women do have outside marriage are not at all attractive. Disagreeable female relatives are frequently threatened with being sent to the Silent Sisters if they don't fall in line with what the family patriarch wants. For more scholarly and gentle people like Sam, the Citadel is the one respectable calling, but in Randyll's characterization of them as servants, he managed to narrow Sam's options even more. I wonder what he'd say about Maester Luwin, who has much in common with our Slayer, and who was a man of incomparable worth to the Starks. There are things that Tarly just doesn't "get." Like Tywin, his attitude toward his children is a real blind spot. Not that he's a great man otherwise, but he is a frighteningly effective vassal (if cruel and brutal at the same time).

All this is true, but we have to bear in mind that Westeros is a fictional place. Martin is creating this world, and it's up to him to do a fair job in terms of the representation of minorities and marginalised sexualities. The work and the world he's created are both large enough in scope for him to attend to these deficiencies. And critiquing the lack of lesbian identities within a text which arguably exploits lesbian sexuality for gratuitous purposes is a worthy endeavour IMHO.

Nobody is contesting that Westeros is fictional, but I don't think that Martin has a "duty" to include screen time for people from a stack of "marginalized" categories in his world. It's safe to assume that marginalized people of all kinds exist in the world, but it's not necessary to have representatives of all of them in the story. I don't see Martin's work as containing a "deficiency" in that regard. And I don't think he's exploiting lesbian sexuality for any purpose. I don't enjoy those scenes and I could do without them (ditto for the heterosexual scenes too), but they're not so jarring or inappropriate as to completely break the story.

[Winter's Knight]

I agree completely. If we are being historically correct, this was the time period. Often it is hard to keep our modern thinking separate from the mind frames of the times before us. This is way after GRRM's timeline, but in the days of Queen Victoria's reign, men who engaged in "homosexual acts" were imprisoned (ex. Oscar Wilde) and it was believed at that women did not have homosexual desires. It's silly to think about now.

As for GRRM's portrayal of gay and lesbian characters they are subtle. I was happy to know that there were several types of females in the series with a voice, motivations and weaknesses to match their strengths. I would love to see a lesbian character as much as I would love to see a person of color with a point of view, but I do not want this POC or gay character to be a token sidekick who serves little to no purpose, but is thrown in for equalities sake. I would love to see an influential character who is strong, suffers from weaknesses the same way as any white male character would, but has great strengths and they just happen to be a lesbian or a person of color.

Does that make any sense? If I wasn't clear on my points, please let me know.

The fantasy genre is expanding it's territories, but speaking as a pansexual partially black female, I would love to see more people who look like me fighting in battle, taming dragons and being Lords and Lady's of their House and not the servant or some background character who is thrown in to "shut up" people. Just like finding out the only dark skinned female (so far, I am not completely caught up yet) is a prostitute.

Yeah, that was really cute. :rolleyes:

At least your ethnicity doesn't closely resemble the Ghiscari.

If the tokar doesn't sound like a sari....

[Sevumar]

I'd love to see an America like that. I'm also interested in the ways that GRRM may be using the novels to critique, albeit indirectly, elements of our culture that probably should have changed, as you mention, once we moved beyond subsistence. For example, the Dany in Mereen episode might serve as a critique of imperialism (or not - but I enjoy thinking about it in either case).

I understand where you're coming from, and there's some value in critiquing literature in the manner you're describing, but I think there's a slice of the fan community that likes to try to make a big deal out of something that isn't really that much of an issue. I've never really understood why some people have a need or an agenda to track the inclusion of <X> in some work of art or entertainment, where X is characters of a certain ethnicity, or gays/lesbians, or transgendered people, or disabled people, or left-handed people or any other group you can call to mind.

As we become more diverse as a society, artists are producing works of art that show wider varieties of characters. Martin's world is populated by an amazingly diverse set of people, but saying it's a flaw because he doesn't include a specific group you're interested in doesn't seem like a fair criticism.