Reading Women In Westoros

[Artemis]

I'm bad about not paying enough attention to the songs as I read - I kind of love the end of this one. The tree/grass/forest thing is making me think about the CotF, too.

I think it may be my favorite, but that's not saying much since we seen little to none of other songs in the novels.

What is fascinating to me is the context this song appeared in. It was right after Arya and Gendry's "wrestle" out by the smithy while at Acorn Hall; Arya's wearing a dress embroidered with little acorns. I attempted an analysis of the song here at the "Romance in ASoIaF" thread: http://bit.ly/LWl5Ue

It's also quite fascinating as it shows the woman as quite uninhibited, outright saying "no" to the lord in the song and essentially implying that if he wants to be with her, it will have to be on her terms. Interesting. I liked your comparison with the CotF...funnily enough, that's what it first reminded me of as well...

[mythsandstuff]

I think it may be my favorite, but that's not saying much since we seen little to none of other songs in the novels.

What is fascinating to me is the context this song appeared in. It was right after Arya and Gendry's "wrestle" out by the smithy while at Acorn Hall; Arya's wearing a dress embroidered with little acorns. I attempted an analysis of the song here at the "Romance in ASoIaF" thread: http://bit.ly/LWl5Ue

It's also quite fascinating as it shows the woman as quite uninhibited, outright saying "no" to the lord in the song and essentially implying that if he wants to be with her, it will have to be on her terms. Interesting. I liked your comparison with the CotF...funnily enough, that's what it first reminded me of as well...

I liked that earlier post a lot - I like Arya and Gendry, but I think you're right - he wants something more stable.

[Ragnorak]

For perspective:

Sansa, Arya, Cat, Cersei, Myrcella, Arianne, Obara Sand, Nymeria Sand, Tyene Sand, Sarella Sand, Elia Sand, Obella Sand, Ellaria Sand, Loreza Sand, Lady Olenna, Margaery, Taena Merryweather, Shae, Alayaya, Val, Asha, Dacey Mormont, Alysane Mormont, Lyanna Mormont, Maege Mormont, Ygritte, Wylla Manderly, Genna Lannister, Alys Karstark, Jeyne Westerling, Sybell Spicer, Dany, Missandei, Gilly...

There's a lot more going on in terms of a worldview of women than just Sansa vs Arya. Martin has a lot of women with a spectrum of strengths, weaknesses and flaws and they're placed in a myriad of roles. There's enough to compare, contrast, like and dislike to create a fairly complex reading of women in Westeros.

I generally dislike discussions of gender roles and "views of women" not because I don't find the topic interesting, but because it so quickly degenerates into political correctness which is the most shallow and least intellectual form of discussion. Take the Cersei example:

There is also a great deal of ambivalence regarding women actively wanting power. Cersei is one of the few females who wants it for it’s own sake, and this is very much a part of her demonization. Yes, an issue is clearly that Cersei does not know how to use power. However, her wanting it in itself is portrayed as corrupt and “Unnatural”, and her incompetence in having power (after she’s wanted it so much) can be seen in a certain light as a didactic enforcement of this message.

Anyone who wants power for its own sake is generally corrupt. Cersei abuses her power, abuses her children to obtain power, and her inablility to wield it only amplifies the abhorent things she's done to obtain it. Any human who wants power for its own sake, abuses people to get it so they can abuse more people when they have it is generally detestable as a person. Trying to attach sexism to this is just absurd on its face. Cersei repeatedly does morally repugnant things, believes herself brilliant for decisions the readers know are idiotic, and occasionally shows insight or empathy in moments of desperation that only serve to reveal she is knowingly choosing to be repugnant (like mentioning to Sansa that Joffrey will never forgive her for seeing him shamed yet she did nothing to stop the beatings.) Sexist? Seriously?

Martin gives us Arianne who is trying to secure her rightful inheritance against what she perceives as a plot to give it to her brother. As contrast he gives us Asha who is trying to steal what is her brother's rightful inheritance. (both women seeking power and not hated like Cersei) Arianne's is hers by birthright whereas Asha legitimately worked to earn respect as a captain, filled the role of 3 absent brothers to both her parents, while her brother is an outsider of questionable loyalty to the people her father wants to attack. There's lots of grey area, there's misunderstanding, there's contrasting cultures and laws regarding women's inheritance, issues about working and earning vs being born first, etc. How can you possibly look at someone's take on Cersei and cry "Sexist!" without asking how they view Asha and Arianne-- or the Mormonts or Dany or Lady Olenna or Genna Lannister.

There is such a rich variety of women with so many well developed personalities wielding power in so many ways from different official positions-- you could discover so much about which subtle distinctions or circumstances influence perceptions and drill down into what people really value and identify with. But you'll never learn any of it if you allow political correctness to stifle or derail the discussion. If someone needs to defend themselves against "sexism" for not liking Cersei any chance of a truly enlightening discussion is already doomed.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think it may be my favorite, but that's not saying much since we seen little to none of other songs in the novels.

What is fascinating to me is the context this song appeared in. It was right after Arya and Gendry's "wrestle" out by the smithy while at Acorn Hall; Arya's wearing a dress embroidered with little acorns. I attempted an analysis of the song here at the "Romance in ASoIaF" thread: http://bit.ly/LWl5Ue

It's also quite fascinating as it shows the woman as quite uninhibited, outright saying "no" to the lord in the song and essentially implying that if he wants to be with her, it will have to be on her terms. Interesting. I liked your comparison with the CotF...funnily enough, that's what it first reminded me of as well...

Yeah, right before the song Arya says:

"Gendry put the hammer down and looked at her. "You look different now. Like a proper little girl." "I look like an oak tree, with all these stupid acorns." "Nice, though. A nice oak tree." He stepped closer, and sniffed at her..."

So I think it definitely was referring to her.

I noticed that she did think about being an outlaw with him when she referenced the songs about Wenda the White Fawn but then thought it was stupid. It's totally out of the question now since he abandoned her, she got kidnapped, and then she's on to find adventures for herself.

Gendry also found another girl and it was noted in Brienne's chapter that they act like a married couple already.

Of the two Edric Dayne seemed the one to want adventure. He wanted to be in battle and wars but seemed disappointed that he wasn't able to do anything besides just stand over Beric's body. He wanted to fight. I think maybe he wants to be the next Sword of Morning. It has to be earned. Arthur fought the outlaws though. I don't think Arya will see him again though or at least I don't suspect it. She's more likely to see the other Edric.

"Beric would find her there. Anguy would teach her to use a bow, and she could ride with Gendry and be an outlaw, like Wenda the White Fawn in the songs, But that was just stupid, like something Sansa might dream."

Wenda was supposed to be the queen of the outlaws.

"The outlaw queen burned her sigil into his arse before ransoming him back to Summer Crakehall."

Wenda was compared to Uncat too.

"The White Fawn was young and fair, they say. This hooded woman is neither...They claim she led the outlaws."

I think on occasion Arya does like songs but she likes the unconventional or the dirty ones, lol.

"Gyloro Dothare taught her filthy songs..."

EDIT: About the COTF, Bran mistook one for Arya in ADWD. He called it the Arya thing lol until he got closer and realized it wasn't human.

"For a moment, Bran thought it was his sister Arya...madly...And yet there she was, whirling, a scrawny thing, ragged, wild, her hair atangle. Tears filled Hodor's eyes and froze there....It was a girl, but smaller than Arya, her skin dappled like a doe's beneath a cloak of leaves. Her eyes were queer...Her hair was a tangle of brown and red and gold, autumn colors, with vines and twigs and withered flowers woven through it."

[Artemis]

EDIT: About the COTF, Bran mistook one for Arya in ADWD. He called it the Arya thing lol until he got closer and realized it wasn't human.

Completely OT: Bran and Arya are both compared to squirrels and the Giants call the CotF something in their language which translates to "the squirrel people" in the common tongue.

As angry as he was, his father could not help but laugh. "You're not my son," he told Bran when they fetched him down, "you're a squirrel. So be it. If you must climb, then climb, but try not to let your

mother see you."

"Little one," Greenbeard answered, "a peasant may skin a common squirrel for his pot, but if he finds a gold squirrel in his tree he takes it to his lord, or he will wish he did."

"I'm not a squirrel," Arya insisted.

"You are." Greenbeard laughed. "A little gold squirrel who's off to see the lightning lord, whether she wills it or not. He'll know what's to be done with you. I'll wager he sends you back to your lady mother,

just as you wish."

When Greenbeard saw Arya staring at him, he laughed and said, "The lightning lord is everywhere and nowhere, skinny squirrel."

"I'm not a squirrel," she said. "I'll almost be a woman soon. I'll be one-and-ten."

"Go on with you, skinny squirrel," said Greenbeard. "Be a good little lady and go play in the yard while we talk, now."

Greenbeard said, "Here's the wizard, skinny squirrel. You'll get your answers now."

"Such an angry squirrel," murmured Greenbeard.

Parallels errwhere.

For perspective:

Sansa, Arya, Cat, Cersei, Myrcella, Arianne, Obara Sand, Nymeria Sand, Tyene Sand, Sarella Sand, Elia Sand, Obella Sand, Ellaria Sand, Loreza Sand, Lady Olenna, Margaery, Taena Merryweather, Shae, Alayaya, Val, Asha, Dacey Mormont, Alysane Mormont, Lyanna Mormont, Maege Mormont, Ygritte, Wylla Manderly, Genna Lannister, Alys Karstark, Jeyne Westerling, Sybell Spicer, Dany, Missandei, Gilly...

There's a lot more going on in terms of a worldview of women than just Sansa vs Arya. Martin has a lot of women with a spectrum of strengths, weaknesses and flaws and they're placed in a myriad of roles. There's enough to compare, contrast, like and dislike to create a fairly complex reading of women in Westeros.

Very true. There's a wide variety of female characters that we have been presented with as readers and they are compellingly diverse, I agree. The one that stands out most in my mind is Ellaria Sand and how richly GRRM portrays her even though she's a relatively minor character. Her tirade against war and death to the Sand Snakes is hands down one of my favorite scenes in the book. She's a character that appears rarely within the novels, but whenever she appears, she creates quite an impression.

[mythsandstuff]

Anyone who wants power for its own sake is generally corrupt. Cersei abuses her power, abuses her children to obtain power, and her inablility to wield it only amplifies the abhorent things she's done to obtain it. Any human who wants power for its own sake, abuses people to get it so they can abuse more people when they have it is generally detestable as a person. Trying to attach sexism to this is just absurd on its face. Cersei repeatedly does morally repugnant things, believes herself brilliant for decisions the readers know are idiotic, and occasionally shows insight or empathy in moments of desperation that only serve to reveal she is knowingly choosing to be repugnant (like mentioning to Sansa that Joffrey will never forgive her for seeing him shamed yet she did nothing to stop the beatings.) Sexist? Seriously?

Martin gives us Arianne who is trying to secure her rightful inheritance against what she perceives as a plot to give it to her brother. As contrast he gives us Asha who is trying to steal what is her brother's rightful inheritance. (both women seeking power and not hated like Cersei) Arianne's is hers by birthright whereas Asha legitimately worked to earn respect as a captain, filled the role of 3 absent brothers to both her parents, while her brother is an outsider of questionable loyalty to the people her father wants to attack. There's lots of grey area, there's misunderstanding, there's contrasting cultures and laws regarding women's inheritance, issues about working and earning vs being born first, etc. How can you possibly look at someone's take on Cersei and cry "Sexist!" without asking how they view Asha and Arianne-- or the Mormonts or Dany or Lady Olenna or Genna Lannister.

Yeah, I'm struggling with Cersei, and have been for a while. I think part of it is that while my rational mind thinks it's ok - no, important - for women to also be painted as complex, irredeemable villains, I'm just not comfortable with it, which means I've got some internalized sexism I need to work through.

On the other hand, every time I read/hear someone saying they can't wait for Cersei to "get hers," I think "her what? redemption, like Tyrion and Jaime? Don't see that happening." And that just feels unfair to me.

I think you make a good point in comparing Cersei's thirst for power with Arianne and Asha's struggles for it - seeing Cersei in that context allows us to see that it's not just through Cersei that we see power struggles, and that Martin is painting a more complex picture. Thanks for that.

Wenda was supposed to be the queen of the outlaws.

Wenda was compared to Uncat too.

I think on occasion Arya does like songs but she likes the unconventional or the dirty ones, lol.

EDIT: About the COTF, Bran mistook one for Arya in ADWD. He called it the Arya thing lol until he got closer and realized it wasn't human.

Wenda was another story I totally missed (this is the bad of outlaws Barristan (or maybe Jaime?) remembers fighting alongside Arthur Dayne, right?). I need to do a reread focused on songs and legends.

Edited to point out that "bad of outlaws" might be redundant. "Band" it is, then.

[ARYa_Nym]

Wenda was another story I totally missed (this is the bad of outlaws Barristan (or maybe Jaime?) remembers fighting alongside Arthur Dayne, right?). I need to do a reread focused on songs and legends.

Yes. They were called the Kingswood Brotherhood. All 3 fought them. Barriston killed the leader Simon Toyne while Arthur killed the Smiling Knight.

[mythsandstuff]

Yes. They were called the Kingswood Brotherhood. All 3 fought them. Barriston killed the leader Simon Toyne while Arthur killed the Smiling Knight.

What happened to Wenda?

[ARYa_Nym]

What happened to Wenda?

Wiki says that it's not clear what happened to her. Most of the members are presumed dead except for one named Ulmer who went to the Wall. I found a song too but the lyrics aren't complete:

No man's gold was from them, nor any maiden's hand. Oh, the brothers of the Kingswood, that fearsome outlaw band

[Valkyrja]

What happened to Wenda?

I think her fate after the Kingswood Brotherhood was destroyed is unknown.

All I remember is that at the time of her involvement with them, she was said to be beautiful and would brand those captured with her signature brand....a fawn. :D

I'd love to know what happened to her, though knowing the fates of the rest of the Brotherhood I'm sure hers was not pretty....

Edit: whoops, Arya Nym beat me to it. :)

[mythsandstuff]

In the women in Night's Watch thread, someone suggested the Silent Sisters was where the female criminals go - now I feel like I need to look and see if the dude who got the fawn on his butt describes her, so I can be on the lookout for her.

[ARYa_Nym]

Completely OT: Bran and Arya are both compared to squirrels and the Giants call the CotF something in their language which translates to "the squirrel people" in the common tongue.

Parallels errwhere.

Thanks. :) About Bran I noticed this recently and he thought that Meera reminded him of Arya in ACoK. I thnk that's so cute because he developed a little crush. I hope she doesn't die in that cave.

“…but Meera reminded Bran of his sister Arya. She wasn’t scared to get dirty, and she could run and fight and throw as good as a boy. She was older than Arya though…They were both older than Bran..but they never treated him like a child.”

[Artemis]

Ok. I can only find one line of Jenny's song (I think it's Jenny's song) so far:

High in the halls of the kings who are gone, Jenny would dance with her ghosts...

And then there's some mention of flowers in her hair, and that it's a song of grief (and apparently Jonquil's is too - I never got that before). I think it's interesting that Jenny's story/song shows up in the last three books, but not the first two. It seems to have the same kind of significance for Catelyn as Jonquil does for Sansa (in terms of imagining herself in that role).

I would actually be really keen on finding out all of the verses in the Jenny of Oldstones song. She was in love with the Targ Prince of Dragonflies right? And supposedly something might have happened to her at Summerhall? Jenny also apparently brings the Ghost of High Heart to court who told Jaehaerys about the PTWP born out of the union of Rhaella and Aerys.

[mythsandstuff]

I would actually be really keen on finding out all of the verses in the Jenny of Oldstones song. She was in love with the Targ Prince of Dragonflies right? And supposedly something might have happened to her at Summerhall? Jenny also apparently brings the Ghost of High Heart to court who told Jaehaerys about the PTWP born out of the union of Rhaella and Aerys.

Me too, but the fact that she's connected to PTWP means we probably won't find out more until the end. Wait - does she show up in any of the Dunk and Egg stories, or are they before?

[Valkyrja]

I would actually be really keen on finding out all of the verses in the Jenny of Oldstones song. She was in love with the Targ Prince of Dragonflies right? And supposedly something might have happened to her at Summerhall? Jenny also apparently brings the Ghost of High Heart to court who told Jaehaerys about the PTWP born out of the union of Rhaella and Aerys.

Yes, Prince Duncan Targaryen, aka Duncan the Small. He fell in love with Jenny of Oldstones, and gave up the crown in order to marry her. He was henceforth known as the Prince of Dragonflies. I don't know much about him, but I love the Dunk and Egg stories, and given that he was named after Dunk and was the son of Egg, I can't help but think he was quite a special fellow. :)

ETA: The Dunk and Egg stories have so far only taken place during the time when Dunk and Egg are quite young, so Duncan the Small is not even born yet. I think GRRM hopes to write their entire story though (all the way up to the tragedy at Summerhall, perhaps), but obviously that won't be for a long while, if ever. :/

[Artemis]

Thanks. :) About Bran I noticed this recently and he thought that Meera reminded him of Arya in ACoK. I thnk that's so cute because he developed a little crush. I hope she doesn't die in that cave.

I hope we see more of Meera. I really do. She's a prominent character but for some reason, GRRM has always left me a bit confused regarding her portrayal. She's conspicuous in every Bran POV since they started towards the North together, but it worried me how sometimes she would slip into "background character" mode...something that GRRM tends to do now and then with his characters.

That reminds me!

From a Bran chapter in ADWD:

Meera led the way back up the hill, jabbing at the wights when they came near. The things could 
not be hurt, but they were slow and clumsy. “Hodor,” Hodor said with every step. “Hodor, hodor.”

He 
wondered what Meera would think if he should suddenly tell her that he loved her.

My poor baby boy. Bless his sweet little heart.

Brb...shaking and crying forever.

[Ragnorak]

Yeah, I'm struggling with Cersei, and have been for a while...

You've also got Cersei/Jaime and Margaery/Loras parallel too. Both married into a family to be Queen, both came to KL with a brother protector. Margaery may be manipulating Tommen but compare that to how Cersei tried to use her influence on Robert. Compare Cersei's treatment of Sansa in an attempt to marry her for a claim to the North to Margaery and Lady Olenna's. Or take Arianne's plot to crown Myrcella and see how differently she is treated by the people who are plotting compared to Sansa at Cersei's hands. If Sansa got her ear cut off during one of Joffrey's beatings do you think Cersei would care or cry like Arianne or call it some needed humility? Cersei is just a nasty piece of work from any angle, feel free to embrace your inner Cersei hatred.

[Kittykatknits]

Yeah, I'm struggling with Cersei, and have been for a while. I think part of it is that while my rational mind thinks it's ok - no, important - for women to also be painted as complex, irredeemable villains, I'm just not comfortable with it, which means I've got some internalized sexism I need to work through.

On the other hand, every time I read/hear someone saying they can't wait for Cersei to "get hers," I think "her what? redemption, like Tyrion and Jaime? Don't see that happening." And that just feels unfair to me.

I have lots of problems with Cersei and it has nothing to do with her as a character exactly. To me, Martin has done a rather poor job of developing, especially compared to so many other POVs within the story. If we put her in the villian category with Tyrion, Theon, and Jaime, there is no hint of real character growth or redemption. There is much in her worthy of sympathy but that does not come through the way it does with the other three. Martin had some opportunities to show how women end up reinforcing the roles of patriarchy but the way it is done with Cersei just makes her look evil. I think Cersei is a character that really suffered from the lack of a five year gap, even worse than some of the children. We ended Storm with her father and son dying and Tyrion, who she believes is guilty, having escaped. So, in the course of a single book, Martin had to show Cersei turn in to this woman who is borderline batshit crazy and completely irrational. I really believe that is why the Maggy the Frog prophecy was put in, to give an excuse to hasten her descent in to villainy. It denies her depth that so many others are given.

Do not mistake me, I think Cersei is not a good person, she is guilty of several crimes for which she deserves a trial and execution for. But, she also deserves compassion too. Yet, most readers can not do that. Why does Martin feel compelled to deny this depth and complexity to Cersei, a character that has been a part of this story since the first book.

I don't much care for Cersei, she's not a good person, but I feel the need to defend her at times. I really wish Martin had developed her a bit better. Well, a lot better.

I think it may be my favorite, but that's not saying much since we seen little to none of other songs in the novels.

What is fascinating to me is the context this song appeared in. It was right after Arya and Gendry's "wrestle" out by the smithy while at Acorn Hall; Arya's wearing a dress embroidered with little acorns. I attempted an analysis of the song here at the "Romance in ASoIaF" thread: http://bit.ly/LWl5Ue

It's also quite fascinating as it shows the woman as quite uninhibited, outright saying "no" to the lord in the song and essentially implying that if he wants to be with her, it will have to be on her terms. Interesting. I liked your comparison with the CotF...funnily enough, that's what it first reminded me of as well...

I liked that earlier post a lot - I like Arya and Gendry, but I think you're right - he wants something more stable.

I thought of two others songs as well that we an look at. The first is the song of about Florian and Jonquil. I think most of what we know is through Sansa as it is one of her favorites. It's one of those tragic love stories where they fall in love and he dies to save her. Florian is both a knight and a fool and has that great line about how all men are knights and all men are fools when it comes to women. I think there is more to this story in the Dunk and Egg stories but I don't have access to those but maybe someone else does?

The other story is told by Ygritte to Jon, Bael the Bard who steals away the Stark daughter. He takes her, leaving nothing but a blue rose behind. They have a son from that union who ends up becoming the Stark in WF in order to keep the line going. This song always made me think of Lyanna Stark, especially with the blue rose and mysterious baby. I also have a crack theory that this song foreshadows that a future bastard of the Stark line will become the next Stark as well. We don't have the words to this one either though.

[brashcandy]

The other story is told by Ygritte to Jon, Bael the Bard who steals away the Stark daughter. He takes her, leaving nothing but a blue rose behind. They have a son from that union who ends up becoming the Stark in WF in order to keep the line going. This song always made me think of Lyanna Stark, especially with the blue rose and mysterious baby. I also have a crack theory that this song foreshadows that a future bastard of the Stark line will become the next Stark as well. We don't have the words to this one either though.

There's also a theory that this story is connected to Sansa and Petyr (Bael)lish.

[Kittykatknits]

There's also a theory that this story is connected to Sansa and Petyr (Bael)lish.

Oh dear, I don't think I'm going to like this theory. Do I even want to know?