Summer 2012 Re-Read - Week 1 (GoT Chapters 0 - 15)

[Dragonstar]

Starting up the first of our weekly threads to discuss our group re-read. We're striving to complete the first 3 books by the end of this summer.

Discussion kicks off for me with the description of the Others in the prologue chapter:

I never noticed before that the Other has a moment of pause when Waymar holds his sword up high over his head - and appears to be examining closely the sword, its eyes examining the reflection of moonlight on the sword.

This is our first hint that the Others are not completely fearless, and that there is a chink in their armor, and that it has something to do with certain sorts of swords.

Also, there's some play on the ice/fire theme in the prologue - nothing burns like the cold, etc

All in all - good stuff so far! Can't wait to hear about what you guys have found so far.

[K.C.]

I'll probably get left behind on this, but I had some time to kill and picked the book up again.

Knowing what we do now, the pause could partly be because Benjen Stark found dragonglass and killed one or more Others. Also, is the Others' grip on the wights like the über-morlocks in The Time Machine? That could help explain the season 2 ending scene. A little. Okay, that scene was still meh.

R+L=J: First hint on p. 15 (paperback): Jon "was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike." It really is mentioned constantly once you know what you're looking for.

And Jon's pup's eyes being open "while the others were still blind" could be something Azor Ahai-related? The prophecy side is part of why I want to re-read the books.

[Snowborn]

Regarding the Prologue:

Why did Jeor put such an unexperienced man like Ser Waymar Royce in charge of the expedition, instead of the more experienced Gared or Will? I thought the NW didn't really care about ranks as much as the rest of Westeros. Later on I think Mormont says something on the lines of "he wanted to prove his worth", but I think he should have made him wait until he got some experience on expeditions lead by proven Rangers.

About the Other examining Ser Waymar's sword, I think the wight was aware that there is a kind of weapon that could effectively kill it, like Savarin said, so it hesitated for a second, but once it realized it was a normal sword, it became fearless again.

R+L=J: First hint on p. 15 (paperback): Jon "was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike." It really is mentioned constantly once you know what you're looking for.

I'm not sure whether that quote would be a piece of evidence for R+L=J, as it is possible for siblings not to look alike at all, but I agree that there are lots of clues around if you pay attention. I didn't notice until I read about the theory, though :P

About Jon's pup's eyes... I consider that to be a reflection of Jon's need of being more aware of what is going around him and reading into people's intentions (said need is mentioned in one of his first chapters, IIRC), due to his condition of bastard, thus making it clear that that particular direwolf was meant to him... or perhaps it has more deep implications. How would you relate it to Jon possibly being Azor Ahai?

[starvinmarvin]

mormont possible could have put Royce in charge because you have to give him leadership experience somehow and this could have been viewed as not that difficult of a mission.

[K.C.]

Regarding the Prologue:

Why did Jeor put such an unexperienced man like Ser Waymar Royce in charge of the expedition, instead of the more experienced Gared or Will? I thought the NW didn't really care about ranks as much as the rest of Westeros. Later on I think Mormont says something on the lines of "he wanted to prove his worth", but I think he should have made him wait until he got some experience on expeditions lead by proven Rangers.

About the Other examining Ser Waymar's sword, I think the wight was aware that there is a kind of weapon that could effectively kill it, like Savarin said, so it hesitated for a second, but once it realized it was a normal sword, it became fearless again.

I'm not sure whether that quote would be a piece of evidence for R+L=J, as it is possible for siblings not to look alike at all, but I agree that there are lots of clues around if you pay attention. I didn't notice until I read about the theory, though :P

About Jon's pup's eyes... I consider that to be a reflection of Jon's need of being more aware of what is going around him and reading into people's intentions (said need is mentioned in one of his first chapters, IIRC), due to his condition of bastard, thus making it clear that that particular direwolf was meant to him... or perhaps it has more deep implications. How would you relate it to Jon possibly being Azor Ahai?

I was in a hurry and just throwing out whatever came to mind. I have no idea how that would relate to Azor Ahai. :P Should have stuck to the prologue in my post, but apparently the goal is a little over two chapters a day?

About Royce: Yeah, huge contradiction between "a man gets what he earns when he earns it" and the way anyone with a Ser or Lord in front of his name is treated. Mormont sent the lordling out with grizzled veterans hoping they'd keep him alive. He didn't know what they'd be up against.

[The Wood of the Morning]

Regarding the Prologue:

Why did Jeor put such an unexperienced man like Ser Waymar Royce in charge of the expedition, instead of the more experienced Gared or Will? I thought the NW didn't really care about ranks as much as the rest of Westeros. Later on I think Mormont says something on the lines of "he wanted to prove his worth", but I think he should have made him wait until he got some experience on expeditions lead by proven Rangers.

He mention's this later on in CoK iirc, it has to do with how he has had to cater towards noble houses in order to keep getting men and put knighted men from important houses in commanding positions even if they weren't capable.

[SkaagosChef]

- Others laugh at Waymar's attempts to fight them... that was the first time I noticed that there was something more to them then just killing ability.

- All other wolves are submissive to Ghost. He was the only one with eyes open (as someone mentioned before)

- I also re-discovered how horrible Cat was to Jon :crying:

[Crown]

The description of Others was really great to reread. They communicate. They laugh. Apparently they know feelings and emotions.

[DurararaFTW]

Will is a baised perspective, you have to remember. In the end, Will hid in a tree and watched the others die, Gared went completely bonkers and only survived because the Others were busy with his friends, Waymar actually defended himself. Waymar didn't know the North, but he still had more discipline and training then the other two. Not saying he still wasn't arrogant and everything but still.

[Dragonstar]

From the Bran/Catelyn chapters:

I always assumed Godswoods = a grove of Weirwoods. Completely incorrect. They are just a grove meant for general thought/meditation/prayer - some have weirwoods but not all of them.

Also, Ned is only 35 at the start of GoT, which would make Catelyn maybe a few years younger - that kind of blew me away - I had no idea . I always assumed they were years older, with how 'old' Ned acts and how many children they have together.

And lastly - "Ice" is HOW long? Taller than Robb? Wider than a man's hand? I'm trying very hard to picture what this sword looks like. What is interesting is that Catelyn mentions in her POV that nothing holds an edge quite like Valyrian Steel. In the Prologue, Will says that he couldn't tell what the Other's sword was made off, but he could tell just by looking at it that was very sharp. I find it interesting that the two swords are seemingly juxtaposed so early in the series - I wonder if there's anything there. Maybe the Other's swords are made of "UnValyrian Steel" or Valyrian Steel's equal but opposite metal, whichever that would be.

[Heathered]

I never noticed before that the Other has a moment of pause when Waymar holds his sword up high over his head - and appears to be examining closely the sword, its eyes examining the reflection of moonlight on the sword.

This is our first hint that the Others are not completely fearless, and that there is a chink in their armor, and that it has something to do with certain sorts of swords.

Also, there's some play on the ice/fire theme in the prologue - nothing burns like the cold, etc

All in all - good stuff so far! Can't wait to hear about what you guys have found so far.

You bring up a very good point, and one that hadn't occurred to me the first time I read it. I wonder if the reason that the Other looked so closely at Waymar's sword is to see if it is Valyrian steel, which of course it wasn't. According to Will, Waymar's sword was "a splendid weapon, castle-forged, and new made from the look of it" (5). I may be going out on a limb, but perhaps dragonglass is not the only substance that can injury/kill the Others. Valyrian steel is forged spells and magic, and I wonder if that magic extends to unkillable magical creatures like Others. Jon had Longclaw (the only Valyrian made sword on the Wall), and so Mormont did not have his sword on the Fist of Men when the Others attacked. Perhaps if he had, there would have been more Others killed than just Sam's Other.

Just for reference, here is a link to the known (and unknown) swords, daggers, etc. made of Valyrian steel: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Valyrian_steel

[Tony Soprano]

And lastly - "Ice" is HOW long? Taller than Robb? Wider than a man's hand? I'm trying very hard to picture what this sword looks like. What is interesting is that Catelyn mentions in her POV that nothing holds an edge quite like Valyrian Steel. In the Prologue, Will says that he couldn't tell what the Other's sword was made off, but he could tell just by looking at it that was very sharp. I find it interesting that the two swords are seemingly juxtaposed so early in the series - I wonder if there's anything there. Maybe the Other's swords are made of "UnValyrian Steel" or Valyrian Steel's equal but opposite metal, whichever that would be.

I've always pictured Ice more or less like the depiction in the wiki:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Ice,_Sword_of_Eddard_Stark.jpg

I may be going out on a limb, but perhaps dragonglass is not the only substance that can injury/kill the Others. Valyrian steel is forged spells and magic, and I wonder if that magic extends to unkillable magical creatures like Others.

As for the Valyrian Steel being harmful to Others, those are good theories, but there's one thing that doesn't sit right with me: The Others were around thousands of years before the Valyrian Freehold. Did anyone else ever forge Valyrian Steel weapons?

[Dragonstar]

How is the pace for everyone? I'm about 11 chapter in.

Brans fall chapter is heartbreaking. So much foreshadowing there - how he loved to look down at Winterfell from up high, almost like a bird. How he felt like he was lord of Winterfell in a way that Robb would never be. How He felt at home in the branches of a tree.

[Snowborn]

I've read only two... Blame it on my college midterms. I'll surely catch up next week, once the exams are finished.

[K.C.]

Like I said, I don't think I'll be able to keep up with the pace you've set. Don't let me slow anyone down though.

In Dany I, I still can't get over the idea of Khal Drogo owning a mansion and hosting cocktail parties there. I guess because I watched the TV show first. I keep imagining Sookie's house in True Blood and how she's always cleaning someone off her kitchen floor.

[Snowbird]

Rereading the books for the first time, I was struck by this exchange between Jon and Benjen during the feast at Winterfell:

"I am almost a man grown," Jon protested. "I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Master Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children."

"That's true enough," Benjen said with a downward twist of his mouth. He took Jon's cup from the table, filled it from a nearby pitcher, and drank down a long swallow.

Maybe it's nothing, but the "downward twist" of Benjen's mouth and long drink makes me think Benjen knows something more about the circumstances of Jon's birth - for example, if the R+L=J theary is correct and he knows it, Jon's statement is a bitter reminder of what was lost for Jon when R and L were killed. He might still have been considered a bastard (or maybe not, didn't the Targaryen kings sometimes have multiple wives?), or at the least, he would have been a king's bastard with a higher place in King's Landing and Winterfell.

[The Last Reyne]

The pace is ok I just wish we could set up some schedule for what we will be discussing and looking for to help direct the reading.

[OldManDennis]

I'm a bit behind, but this is what struck me this time through on the first 50 or so pages.

The Others sure start strong, don't they? I have very mixed feelings about this. They are in strength just a few days ride from the wall. I think it's pretty awesome to show them, then take them mostly off the table for a while to build suspense. However we are now 70% (theoretically) the way through these books and 95% of the characters are unaware that the others are returning. It's like being 20min into Return of the Jedi and the Death Star still hasn't blown up Alderan. Similarly we should probably be moving closer to answers about Jon at this point.

I get the feeling that the Others in the Prologue might be teenagers. "Man, your dad is out of town. We should totally take his pale horse down to the wall and mess with the NW!"

[GameTheory]

The others have been building a force of wights by harvesting the Wildlings. Once they have sufficient numbers (many tens of thousands) they'll have enough forces to lay siege to the Wall.

The fact that the majority of the characters are unaware of the true threat in the North as they play their political games has always been a great juxtaposition. Their game of thrones is trivial compared to the true threat, but they continue to squander their armies by warring among themselves,while allowing their crops to rot in their fields. This creates a tremendous amount of suspense for the conclusion of the series. This isn't a happy tale, with the depletion of their war assets, I'd expect many of the main characters to fall in the battle for the dawn.

[fyrfly]

they still need to pass the wall, the wall is also made with spells and magic and from dance of dragons and we know that they can't pass it, they need to find the Horn of Winter to bring it down, even at the end of the last book only Stannis and his people are aware of whats going on not even the remaining Lords of the North know, they are all involved in their own power struggles, its like what Jeor Mormont says, something like, so many years have passed and we have lost the sight of our true enemy, the Others and not the Wildlings!!

which is interesting because now dany might become aware of this if Marwyn the Mage ever reaches her