Stark Legacy

[mcb]

They let their animals screw themselves into an inbred withered freak show of stunted, sick and misshapen things? Mother of God that changes everything.

Yes, they were the worst dragon breeders in the world. Everyone else after the Doom had way better results.

[Dr. Pepper]

This is something that I've been thinking about lately but it seems in some ways the Wall was more a southron thing than northern other than the Starks. One of the things seeming strange to me lately is the way the Old Bear talks when they are getting ready to take their vows. It sounds like men taking their vows in the sept is much more common than going out to the weirwood grove. Other things as well though it's countered by the Halfhand not expecting anything from the south instead saying they can only count on the Starks. Though that can tie into your point about it all starting to fall apart under the Targs and continuing with Robert's rule.

I think it was an entire Westeros thing. It makes sense for an overwhelming majority of men to take their vows in the sept consider the north is just a very small population compared to the rest of the continent. I think there were always more southron men than northern men at the wall, though that's pure speculation on my part.

What I notice most is that Northmen at the wall aren't those who go because it's a punishment for a crime. They go because it's an honorable profession. Of course, we can't know for certain why the Jeor or Benjen went to the wall, but we do know that at least Bran and Jon were taught by Benjen and Ned of how honorable it is. Neither had any notion of it being a penal colony.

It definitely started to fall apart after the Targaryen conquest. There were 19 castles that were manned before Aegon landed. Then the castles started to be abandoned one by one as the recruits dwindled. Alysanne went to visit the wall and noticed that the Nightfort was falling into disrepair because it was undermanned and so she donated the money to have a new, smaller castle built and the Nightfort abandoned. That new castle, Deep Lake, was quickly abandoned after. It wasn't money or materials the Night's Watch lacked after Targ rule, it was manpower.

My best speculation is that (1) knowledge was lost when the kingdoms were unified and new lords replaced dead lords of major houses and/or (2) the Targs (apart from perhaps Alysanne and Jaeherys) did not understand or believe in the purpose of the watch and thus encouraged the realm to send it's criminals there. At that point, even the North stopped encouraging men to take a position at the wall. The Northmen seem far more likely to use traditional consequences for crimes rather than shipping them off to the wall. And when you really think about it, why would northmen be so inclined to encourage their sons to go to the wall when the South is predominately sending criminals. I don't think my parents would want me choosing to join a penal colony even if it was traditionally honest and honorable work.

I'm not sure I understand. There wasn't such a thing as "the entire realm" before the Targaryens. The North was "the entire realm", everything south of the Neck were foreign lands.

Sorry. I was being lazy and just figured people would understand if I type just "the entire realm" instead of typing "all of the kingdoms of Westeros prior to Targ invasion."

[bloodymime]

I think it was an entire Westeros thing. It makes sense for an overwhelming majority of men to take their vows in the sept consider the north is just a very small population compared to the rest of the continent. I think there were always more southron men than northern men at the wall, though that's pure speculation on my part.

What I notice most is that Northmen at the wall aren't those who go because it's a punishment for a crime. They go because it's an honorable profession. Of course, we can't know for certain why the Jeor or Benjen went to the wall, but we do know that at least Bran and Jon were taught by Benjen and Ned of how honorable it is. Neither had any notion of it being a penal colony.

It definitely started to fall apart after the Targaryen conquest. There were 19 castles that were manned before Aegon landed. Then the castles started to be abandoned one by one as the recruits dwindled. Alysanne went to visit the wall and noticed that the Nightfort was falling into disrepair because it was undermanned and so she donated the money to have a new, smaller castle built and the Nightfort abandoned. That new castle, Deep Lake, was quickly abandoned after. It wasn't money or materials the Night's Watch lacked after Targ rule, it was manpower.

My best speculation is that (1) knowledge was lost when the kingdoms were unified and new lords replaced dead lords of major houses and/or (2) the Targs (apart from perhaps Alysanne and Jaeherys) did not understand or believe in the purpose of the watch and thus encouraged the realm to send it's criminals there. At that point, even the North stopped encouraging men to take a position at the wall. The Northmen seem far more likely to use traditional consequences for crimes rather than shipping them off to the wall. And when you really think about it, why would northmen be so inclined to encourage their sons to go to the wall when the South is predominately sending criminals. I don't think my parents would want me choosing to join a penal colony even if it was traditionally honest and honorable work.

Sorry. I was being lazy and just figured people would understand if I type just "the entire realm" instead of typing "all of the kingdoms of Westeros prior to Targ invasion."

Great post, really good point on the strength of the Wall at the time of the Targs short reign. And we're talking not even four hundred years right? That's a sharp nosedive for a culture that has supposedly survived for eight thousand years.

Other things that make me think the same thing is Jon immediately switching emphasis from sword training to archery, getting rid of the old tradition of when more of the NW were knights and the Shield Hall where all the knights ate separately from the unwashed masses. It doesn't help though it seems Martin uses knight as just a convenient catch all term as Jon thinks of shields from the hall that clearly have northern sigils. It can make sense though. The Northerners are already close, or close in comparison and indeed we see when any actual crisis comes up it's the Starks rallying their bannermen and coming to deal with it up to when Ned talks about how he's going to have to do this to deal with Mance.

I would say though that even the North send criminals to the Wall, perhaps not as freely as the South who saw it as a dumping ground for all their societies rejects but we have Ned going to Bear Island to lop off Mormont's head for selling poachers instead of sending them to the Wall and we see them catching up to Yoren bringing the rapists to the Wall. It's possible it was a trip south but it had more the feel of a local trip. He's travelling light and they meet up with him past Winterfell which makes it likely if he had been coming from the south he'd have stopped there and travelled with them from the beginning.

[The Fallen]

Just to add to the last two posts. The Wall initially went up after the defeat of The Others and that wasn't just a Northern fight. It involved all of the area which makes up the Seven Kingdoms. We also have Waymar Royce as a member of the Night's Watch and he's from the Vale. The fact that The Others haven't been seen in so long has lulled the South, and even the North, into a false sense of security.

[Dr. Pepper]

Great post, really good point on the strength of the Wall at the time of the Targs short reign. And we're talking not even four hundred years right? That's a sharp nosedive for a culture that has supposedly survived for eight thousand years.

It was about 300 years. And considering the length of time the wall is said to have existed, it was definitely a very sharp nosedive. It's hard to really figure out why it happened without speculating. The only conclusion I have been able to draw is that the Targs didn't think the Wall served an honorable purpose that they should support. Which is sort of ridiculous. If the North is now under Targ rule, you'd think the Targs would be invested in maintaining the wall in order to maintain support in the north. After all, after Targ rule, the North is who bears the burden of wildling raids. Sooner or later I think the North would have rebelled because of this.

I would say though that even the North send criminals to the Wall, perhaps not as freely as the South who saw it as a dumping ground for all their societies rejects but we have Ned going to Bear Island to lop off Mormont's head for selling poachers instead of sending them to the Wall and we see them catching up to Yoren bringing the rapists to the Wall. It's possible it was a trip south but it had more the feel of a local trip. He's travelling light and they meet up with him past Winterfell which makes it likely if he had been coming from the south he'd have stopped there and travelled with them from the beginning.

I believe Yoren was coming from either the Vale or the Riverlands when we first met him in AGOT. I know it was definitely from South of the neck. My memory is faulty, but I don't think we ever see Yoren or anyone else recruiting criminals in the north. I get the impression that the North is generally opposed to jails. They seem to have a certain code of punishments that just doesn't include using a penal colony. Which makes sense. I used an example previously about bodyguards. One wouldn't want thieves and rapists and slavers and murderers and unwilling orphans or poachers to be guarding their home.

[bloodymime]

It was about 300 years. And considering the length of time the wall is said to have existed, it was definitely a very sharp nosedive. It's hard to really figure out why it happened without speculating. The only conclusion I have been able to draw is that the Targs didn't think the Wall served an honorable purpose that they should support. Which is sort of ridiculous. If the North is now under Targ rule, you'd think the Targs would be invested in maintaining the wall in order to maintain support in the north. After all, after Targ rule, the North is who bears the burden of wildling raids. Sooner or later I think the North would have rebelled because of this.

I believe Yoren was coming from either the Vale or the Riverlands when we first met him in AGOT. I know it was definitely from South of the neck. My memory is faulty, but I don't think we ever see Yoren or anyone else recruiting criminals in the north. I get the impression that the North is generally opposed to jails. They seem to have a certain code of punishments that just doesn't include using a penal colony. Which makes sense. I used an example previously about bodyguards. One wouldn't want thieves and rapists and slavers and murderers and unwilling orphans or poachers to be guarding their home.

Yep, you're right. Should have looked it up.

"With him were a pair of ragged peasant boys from the Fingers. “Rapers,” Yoren said with a cold look at his charges."

[romantic]

Valyerian Australia (no offense)? Or Valyerian short bussers (no offense)?

At least we (Aussies) have a successful economy :cool4:

What are short bussers?

[Two Towers]

I believe Yoren was coming from either the Vale or the Riverlands when we first met him in AGOT. I know it was definitely from South of the neck. My memory is faulty, but I don't think we ever see Yoren or anyone else recruiting criminals in the north. I get the impression that the North is generally opposed to jails. They seem to have a certain code of punishments that just doesn't include using a penal colony. Which makes sense. I used an example previously about bodyguards. One wouldn't want thieves and rapists and slavers and murderers and unwilling orphans or poachers to be guarding their home.

When Luwin tries to convince Theon to surrender, he says that he can ask for the Wall, like if it where some right granted to certain criminals. So is not unheard of, in the North, to send criminals to the Wall

Just my two cents

[bloodymime]

When Luwin tries to convince Theon to surrender, he says that he can ask for the Wall, like if it where some right granted to certain criminals. So is not unheard of, in the North, to send criminals to the Wall

Just my two cents

Highborn, like Thorne and Rykker I believe. The Wall likely got a bit of an influx after the Usurpers' rebellion.

Something we were talking about in the Benjen topic is the scarcity of the highborn on the Wall. There's this quote from Mormont.

"Apart from the men at my table tonight, I have perhaps twenty who can read, and even fewer who can think, or plan, or lead."

And of the few there are even fewer are from the north. So far I just have Benjen and Marsh though I'm still looking, there are shields in the Shieldhall with the flayed man and the Umber's giant and the sun of the Karstarks but even with all the extra Umber and Karstark men amongst others none show up on the Wall.

Add Ser Mallador Locke, Ser Wynton Stout

[romantic]

Ned keeps good relations with the mountain clans in the North. So much so, Stannis only has to visit and eat with them, for them to offer men to support him and retake Winterfell (and they want to rescue Ned's little girl). In the Vale, the mountain clans are in constant conflict with the Vale folk, once armed by Tyrion they are a real and present danger to the Vale. Jon Arryn, or his delegate, should have tried to make them part of the Vale 'society' for the long-term benefit of them and Vale. Jon's willingness to see the wildings as 'humans' may be partly related to his father's tolerance of his 'wilder' consitituents.

[Dr. Pepper]

When Luwin tries to convince Theon to surrender, he says that he can ask for the Wall, like if it where some right granted to certain criminals. So is not unheard of, in the North, to send criminals to the Wall

Just my two cents

I don't think it's completely unheard of, just that it's very infrequent. I also am not sure Maester Luwin is from the North. His ideas on what constitutes a suitable Night's Watchmen may be different than a Northerners. I also don't think Theon could have walked out of Winterfell and said "I surrender, I'm going to the wall." I think the Northmen would have scratched their heads and said, "Uh, no. You'll actually need to answer for your crimes."

[Fightbringer]

imo the lack of major towns and ports and to a lesser extent resources is down to the fact there are very few proper towns in the north, there all castles, which is probably down to the norths violent history, the only major town outside of white harbour seems to be barrowtown

[slayer420]

Highborn, like Thorne and Rykker I believe. The Wall likely got a bit of an influx after the Usurpers' rebellion.

Something we were talking about in the Benjen topic is the scarcity of the highborn on the Wall. There's this quote from Mormont.

"Apart from the men at my table tonight, I have perhaps twenty who can read, and even fewer who can think, or plan, or lead."

And of the few there are even fewer are from the north. So far I just have Benjen and Marsh though I'm still looking, there are shields in the Shieldhall with the flayed man and the Umber's giant and the sun of the Karstarks but even with all the extra Umber and Karstark men amongst others none show up on the Wall.

Add Ser Mallador Locke, Ser Wynton Stout

Ser byam flint

[Dr. Pepper]

imo the lack of major towns and ports and to a lesser extent resources is down to the fact there are very few proper towns in the north, there all castles, which is probably down to the norths violent history, the only major town outside of white harbour seems to be barrowtown

The castles have proper towns within them or near them. These are huge, walled structures, usually spread out over a fairly large area where, in many cases, thousands of people live full-time. In winter, population significantly increases. These towns within castle walls (or very near to castle walls) have their own economies, so merchants, inns, skilled labourers, etc. So, there are proper towns in the North. The North is quite large and the weather is harsh so it's sparsely populated, meaning the population density is quite low compared to the southern regions.