People who hate Jon..

[Dark_Rin]

Just because half of the Nights Watch thought Bowen was the lesser of three shit choices, doesn't mean they agree with him.

True, but it also doesnt mean they dont. We don't actually know what the majority opinion from the NW was about letting Wildlings in but I can't see how the majority would be in favour when they've fought them and had brothers get killed by them.

Also doesnt Jon say at one point that he wished Aemon was around, that Aemon would agree with him? That suggests to me that he finds it difficult to find allies to rally to his cause.

Are you talking about the divisions from back during the election?

No, when he sends the Rangers out, I'm sure he says half the men are in Bowens camp.

The number of men who actually mutiny is very small

Well I dont think an exact number is ever given, we dont actually know at this point how many were involved actively or inactively behind the scenes.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

True, but it also doesnt mean they dont. We don't actually know what the majority opinion from the NW was about letting Wildlings in but I can't see how the majority would be in favour when they've fought them and had brothers get killed by them.

Also doesnt Jon say at one point that he wished Aemon was around, that Aemon would agree with him? That suggests to me that he finds it difficult to find allies to rally to his cause.

You're basically arguing for the least common denominator — that Jon should bow down to the basest factions and give legitimacy to their lack of compassion, forward-thinking and common sense.

Again: What's right is not always popular, and what's popular is not always right. The Night's Watch is not a popularity contest. You elect the LC, with the understanding that the LC is the LC and what he says goes.

[butterbumps!]

True, but it also doesnt mean they dont. We don't actually know what the majority opinion from the NW was about letting Wildlings in but I can't see how the majority would be in favour when they've fought them and had brothers get killed by them.

Also doesnt Jon say at one point that he wished Aemon was around, that Aemon would agree with him? That suggests to me that he finds it difficult to find allies to rally to his cause.

Or it suggests that he misses having his authority figure of wisdom around to reassure him that he's taking the right course (it's right after Edd's pomegranate quote). It's not allies he's looking for; he misses he mentor.

No, when he sends the Rangers out, I'm sure he says half the men are in Bowens camp.

You mean "Most rangers echoed Dywen, whilst the stweards and builders inclined toward Bowen Marsh."?

Ok, timeout: what exactly are you arguing? That Jon sucks at consensus building? That Jon failed to get all of his men's beliefs in line with his, despite the fact that only 4 of his men actually mutinied?

[CoolGirlsMurderFriend]

True, but it also doesnt mean they dont. We don't actually know what the majority opinion from the NW was about letting Wildlings in but I can't see how the majority would be in favour when they've fought them and had brothers get killed by them.

Also doesnt Jon say at one point that he wished Aemon was around, that Aemon would agree with him? That suggests to me that he finds it difficult to find allies to rally to his cause.

We don't know. We don't know if the discontent is only there at Castle Black or if others are happy with reinforcements. Jon had two choices, reinforce the wall with Wildlings and Stannis's help or watch them die while the NW is destroyed by Stannis, Wildlings, and Others at the same time.

Of course there is bad blood, but putting on blinders and ignoring reality benefits no one. Jon wants Aemon around because Aemon was wise and well respected, he knew that Aemon would look at the big picture. Bowen is still reeling from getting his ass kicked at the bridge.

[Dark_Rin]

Again: What's right is not always popular, and what's popular is not always right. The Night's Watch is not a popularity contest. You elect the LC, with the understanding that the LC is the LC and what he says goes.

and part of being a good LC is being able to rally men to your opinion, its not enough just to say 'I'm LC what I say goes' and this is something which Jon failed badly at and he could have done a better job.

We don't know. We don't know if the discontent is only there at Castle Black or if others are happy with reinforcements. Jon had two choices, reinforce the wall with Wildlings and Stannis's help or watch them die while the NW is destroyed by Stannis, Wildlings, and Others at the same time.

Of course there is bad blood, but putting on blinders and ignoring reality benefits no one.

Agreed, but I think it would have been easier to bring Bowen and his supporters to his opinion if he had kept Aemon, Emmett etc etc etc around to help him make Marsh see sense.

Or it suggests that he misses having his authority figure of wisdom around to reassure him that he's taking the right course (it's right after Edd's pomegranate quote). It's not allies he's looking for; he misses he mentor

An authority figure that was well respected by all branches of the NW that could have helped him in his difficult role rather than shipping him off to die.

[CoolGirlsMurderFriend]

Or it suggests that he misses having his authority figure of wisdom around to reassure him that he's taking the right course (it's right after Edd's pomegranate quote). It's not allies he's looking for; he misses he mentor.

and great, great, great uncle :P

[CoolGirlsMurderFriend]

and part of being a good LC is being able to rally men to your opinion, its not enough just to say 'I'm LC what I say goes' and this is something which Jon failed badly at and he could have done a better job.

No it's not. It's about being able to make the hard choices even when the men wont be happy with them. Being LC isn't about pleasing people.

[Budj]

also...to pipe in on the NW being torn on Jon's decision. It was stated that the rangers agreed with Jon, the builders were skeptical, but came around to it, and that the stewards were split on the issue....you know....the ones (save Sam and a couple others already on Jon's side) that didn't have to go north of the wall?

[Dark_Rin]

No it's not. It's about being able to make the hard choices even when the men wont be happy with them. Being LC isn't about pleasing people

I dont think you can just say 'this is what we are doing' and expect everyone to obey without question. Espically in the kind of semi-democartic way the NW operates.

The truth of which hits home when he is killed.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

and part of being a good LC is being able to rally men to your opinion, its not enough just to say 'I'm LC what I say goes' and this is something which Jon failed badly at and he could have done a better job.

I don't think anyone is denying that Jon could have done this better. But at the end of the day, the Watch, day-to-day, is NOT a democracy, and what the LC says, goes. Should Ned bend over backwards to accommodate the wishes of Vayon Poole?

Jon's running a military outfit — you know, military, which is by definition not run as a democracy. He's not running for homecoming queen.

[Scipio Africanus]

No it's not. It's about being able to make the hard choices even when the men wont be happy with them. Being LC isn't about pleasing people.

Apart from this there's something Dark Rin is forgetting.

The NW is not D&D's Most Noble Order of the Radiant Heart. It's an underfund, understaffed order filled to the brim with criminals. These people were forced to take an oath otherwise they would've been hanging. How many of them are true champions of Westeros fighting to save the realm from mythical creatures who threaten humanity.

The bulk of the NW is scum who would've legged it for Mole Town the first chance they would get if their heads wouldn't have been on the chopping block.

This is evidenced by the fact that there were TWO conspiracies to kill off former LC Jeor Mormont. If the NW was such a selfless noble order we wouldn't have read about any of that. In other words the opinion of most NW members is selfish. They want to survive whatever is coming and if thousends of wildlings died they couldn't care less. They also don't realize the threat of the Others because they have barely seen any of them, just some undead and a whole bunch of Wildings - foes they certainly do recognize.

To summerize, Jon has to make hard decisions that potentially aren't going to be populair with his men BECAUSE he sees the BIGGER PICTURE. Something Marsh, Slynt etc never saw.

[CoolGirlsMurderFriend]

I dont think you can just say 'this is what we are doing' and expect everyone to obey without question. Espically in the kind of semi-democartic way the NW operates.

The truth of which hits home when he is killed.

Just because a commander allows discussion doesn't mean he has to take a vote on every single issue. We can argue about it all day long, but the truth is that the wall is now substantially better equipped to fight off the Others/Wights when they come and that's what is really important.

[butterbumps!]

and part of being a good LC is being able to rally men to your opinion, its not enough just to say 'I'm LC what I say goes' and this is something which Jon failed badly at and he could have done a better job.

Agreed, but I think it would have been easier to bring Bowen and his supporters to his opinion if he had kept Aemon, Emmett etc etc etc around to help him make Marsh see sense.

An authority figure that was well respected by all branches of the NW that could have helped him in his difficult role rather than shipping him off to die.

I don't fully understand what you're trying to argue for. Four of his men actually mutinied; even those who did not fully agree with Jon's plans seemed that they still respected him and were obedient. I would say that is "rallying" to the degree that people are actually doing what you're telling them to do- they respect you and see you as an authority figure.

If you're point is that Jon ought to have gotten 100% support through consensus-building, town hall meetings and god knows what else, and that not doing so it a fault of his, then fine. I personally think it's a bit ridiculous, but if you really want to argue this point I'm just going to agree to disagree.

I don't think anyone is denying that Jon could have done this better. But at the end of the day, the Watch, day-to-day, is NOT a democracy, and what the LC says, goes. Should Ned bend over backwards to accommodate the wishes of Vayon Poole?

Jon's running a military outfit — you know, military, which is by definition not run as a democracy. He's not running for homecoming queen.

To be honest, I don't think he did such a bad job of it. He really did explain it out in every chapter.

[Winterfellian]

I dont think you can just say 'this is what we are doing' and expect everyone to obey without question. Espically in the kind of semi-democartic way the NW operates.

The truth of which hits home when he is killed.

From what I perceive from your posts you seem to blame Jon for giving men orders and expect them to follow. I see the point you are trying to make about Marsh's and other views about the wildings but I think ultimately it was not unreasonable for Jon to proceed the way he did. Like others have pointed out, the Night Watch is a military organization, therefore, completley hierarchical. Even in modern day military organizations a general doesn't go about explaining his decisions to every subordinate. They expect men to carried out their orders because that's the contract, for a lack of better word, they signed the moment they joined. Also, if not as if Jon selfproclaimed himself as LC. He was democratically elected. Does Jon mistakenly thought that his position as LC would be enough to protect him? Probably. But again, given the nature of the Night's Watch organization he couldn't act as if his decisions were to be submitted to a popularity contest. This might probably send wrong signals either way.

On the other hand trying to make everybody love you or submit your decisions to the judgement of others doesn't guaranteed that you are going to accomplish your goals; just look at Dany in Mereen. She's doing al she can to get others to her side and compromising a great deal in the process and is not exactly working out well for her either.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

To be honest, I don't think he did such a bad job of it. He really did explain it out in every chapter.

I think he probably did all he could do in terms of broad explanations, but I think he could have been a little more precise when it came to cost/benefits. Namely, explain in firmer detail what benefit the Watch got from letting the wildlings in. And I know he did, but he could have done it a little more.

But at the end of the day, Bowen & Co. being idiots isn't really Jon's fault.

[butterbumps!]

I think he probably did all he could do, but I think he could have been a little more precise when it came to cost/benefits. Namely, explain in firmer detail what benefit the Watch got from letting the wildlings in. And I know he did, but he could have done it a little more.

But at the end of the day, Bowen & Co. being idiots isn't really Jon's fault.

Yes, perhaps if he pulled out the Powerpoint and illustrated his points with a few pie charts it would have been sufficiently patronizing for the likes of Bowen :cool4:

[CoolGirlsMurderFriend]

Lolz, roll out the chalk board and colored chalk, grab a ukelele and break it down barney style?

[Ragnorak]

I have never understood this notion that Jon supposedly did not explain himself to his subordinates.

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. "Cotter Pyke's galleys sail past Hardhome from time to time. He tells me there is no shelter there but the caves. The screaming caves, his men call them. Mother Mole and those who followed her will perish there, of cold and starvation. Hundreds of them. Thousands."

"Thousands of enemies. Thousands of wildlings. "

Thousands of people, Jon thought. Men, women, children. Anger rose inside him, but when he spoke his voice was quiet and cold. "Are you so blind, or is it that you do not wish to see? What do you think will happen when all these enemies are dead?"

Above the door the raven muttered, "Dead, dead, dead. "

"Let me tell you what will happen," Jon said. "The dead will rise again, in their hundreds and their thousands. They will rise as wights, with black hands and pale blue eyes, and they will come for us. " He pushed himself to his feet, the fingers of his sword hand opening and closing. "You have my leave to go."

That's as clear as it gets. Castle Black was just attacked from the south because Wildlings scaled the Wall and the NW didn't know because they have too few people to properly man and patrol the Wall. If the walking dead that just slaughtered hundreds of rangers plus an actual attack from the south from scaling the Wall doesn't clue people in to the threats to and limits of the Wall's security somewhow Jon is supposed to come up with magic words to penetrate that thick of a skull? Jon is the Commander of a military organization. He doesn't need to build consensus through group hugs and expressing his feelings. He supposed to give orders and those orders are supposed to be followed. He isn't even expected to have to explain those orders yet he has. The idea that live Wildlings helping defend the Wall is less of a threat than those same Wildings attacking the Wall as wights is a very simple concept. It is also a perfectly reasonable judgement call under the circumstances and a decision that is entirely in the pervue of the Lord Commander.

This would be like Jon choosing to hold up in a castle instead of meeting an enemy on the field and having Marsh whine about every question he's asked only to answer with what they should have done if they had marched out to engage the enemy. The problem is not with Jon.

[Dark_Rin]

I think he probably did all he could do, but I think he could have been a little more precise when it came to cost/benefits. Namely, explain in firmer detail what benefit the Watch got from letting the wildlings in. And I know he did, but he could have done it a little more.

yay somebody who agrees with me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm so happy!

Ok I'm just going to wrap it up because I'm just repeating myself time and again.

1. I personally agree with Jon.

2. Even though he was in the right he could have handled it better.

-He could have kept close allies around him who were vocal in their support which would give March and his supporters something to think about, maybe even convince some of them to change their minds.

-He should not have sent all of the ones who would have backed him up away from him, he isolated himself which was a factor in his downfall.

-Being a leader of anything you need to inspire confidence and loyalty, he ultimately failed to do this and it cost him dearly. Its not just about making hard decisions you have to get men to willingly follow you, if you don't you end up with mutiny. (BTW i said semi-democratic in as much as you vote for your commander, not that you need consenus opinion)

-Marsh and his supporters would have been hostile at first despite the support of Aemon and others, but would they be so adamant Jon was wrong when well respected members of the NW agreed with him. Jon is still relatively new to the NW and very new to the position of LC, it would just make logical sense to have some of the more respected and experienced members of the NW around you to back you up. I know many wee gone but some remained and he sent them away.

-There is no reason to beleive that Marsh was in the minority, all we get is Jon's view that he is right, no-where does Martin give us the opinion of the mass of NW.

-If Marsh wasn't in the minority then Jon should have made a greater effort to rally them to his cause, I'm not saying he should abandon it, I'm saying he could have done a better job at convincing the non-believers.

-Its not about a popularity contest its about gaining the respect of your men and having your men carry out your orders.

-He explained it out sure, but only twice did he do this without getting angry and then sulky. He was dismissive of Marsh from day one, he certianly could have tried at the very least to understand. Hes not going to persuade Marsh by getting frustrated and reaching for his sword.

-If Jon handled it perfectly why is he lying dead at this moment in time?

-We dont know how many were involved in the plot, for all we know it could be the majority of the NW, an incident that could have been avoided.

Ok thats my point in a nutshell.

I'm not saying I'm right, I'm not saying your wrong but I personally don't feel like Jon made such a great job of being LC, he could have done better, maybe if he had he wouldnt be dying right now.

[Budj]

The only decision I disagreed with was trying to send relief to hardholme. It was catastrophic...not that he could have known...but that is the one time that I think Jon should have listened to Marsh...