Jon Snow's future - wights and Melisandre

[yolkboy]

response to Khal Jhaqo....

I just read the first Jon chapter in A Dance With Dragons again and the last page gives some clues.

"It is not the foes that curse you to your face that you must fear, but those who smile when you turn your back. You would do well to keep your wolf close beside you. Ice, I see, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard and naked steel. It was very cold"

'Ice, I see'......

Through johns eyes (when he's a wight), the only sight is ice, all around.

Who knows what the cold represents? could be cus its just friggin cold at the wall. but there is a possibility the fire lady saves his ass.

Georges puzzles are usually too clever to suggest cold = the temperature at the wall. He's UNDERLINING how very very cold this particular place must be. I think you've nailed it with the fire lady, and that fits into my overall thinking. I'm not sure how Jon gets out the ice cell, but i think she'll be a central part of that.

Great work finding those BTW!!! I cant tell if you're coming round to my way of thinking or not?!

[Khal Jhaqo]

Your theory is a good start, my first inclination was that he passed out due to blood loss, or died.

The mention of ice and cold in Melisandre's vision can mean he turns into an other or a wight. But then he would become a mortal enemy of fire and Melisandre can't help him at all.

There is a difference between a wight which is just undead brainless and an Other which is the one that Samwell kills with a dragon glass?(not sure)

What is with these Stark boys and ignoring their direwolves? They ignore them and end up dead!

Edit: you could be on to something tho, he could become some thing like Coldhands for sure.

[butterbumps!]

I believe he is. HOWEVER, the important part of this discussion is that we agree Coldhands was a wight, and he was a 'good wight'. The Benjen argument is irrelevent here, and maybe i shouldnt have mentioned it.

But coldhands = wight is what i'm saying.

PS not to stoke the argument, but which person would have know the 'north of the wall' so well and been so adept at dealing with conditions there when protecting bran, as Benjen - chief ranger, would have.

Regarding Coldhands, I know it's a minor point in your overall logic, but I think there's an issue with the assumptions you're making. Your reasoning for why Coldhands must be Benjen is because Benjen would be able to deal with conditions so well. But any Watchmen would have the same skills as Benjen.

It seems like the point you're trying to make is that there are "good" wights and "bad" wights. You're convinced that Jon will become a wight, and the presence of Coldhands gives you hope that he will not be a mindless zombie, right? We know that whoever Coldhands is, he's a former Watchman. It could well be the case that Coldhands is benign not because he's Benjen, but maybe Coldhands is introduced to us to show that saying the NW vows in front of a heart tree protects the Watchman from becoming a thrall of the Others-- they can rise but are not taken over by ice magic. I think I get what you're trying to say, but there's more elegant speculations to what enables "good" wights that tie into the overall myth of the NW and the Old Gods a bit better.

Regarding why Jon feels the cold: Couldn't it just be that the mists of winter are coming? In the Epilogue, the white dove proclaiming Winter has arrived; couldn't it just be that winter is upon Castle Black? That the "Long Night" has begun?

Honestly, we have zero indication that "warging" into a dead body- human or otherwise- helps prevent a person from dying. If anything, we have the opposite- that you can't inhabit something dead, unless you happen to be an Other. Why is it imperative that Jon inhabits those bodies in the cells? Why not Ghost?

Also, Jon does not have to be literally reborn. There's a difference between Azor Ahai, and Azor Ahai Reborn. AA was the original figure who forged Lightbringer via sacrifice; AAR is allegedly born amidst smoke, salt, while the red star bleeds and will wield Lightbringer. AAR does not seem to require the same Nissa sacrifice to wield Lightbringer; I think the implication is that it already exists and will burn fiery hot in his hand. More importantly, AAR is Azor Ahai reborn. There is no indication that someone in the current story MUST be themselves reborn in order to become Azor Ahai reborn.

[Scipio Africanus]

As to Jon warging, is that really a big mystery? Martin wrote plenty of clues that this is inevitable with DWD itself. Jon was having trouble NOT warging into Ghost even during the daytime. Aka he's developing into a full skinchanger, maybe due to the magic in the Wall.

Jon has suffered trauma, what's the first place he's going to if threatened like that? To something he trusts and knows, Ghost.

Whether or not Jon is truely dead I cannot say, but I hope butterbumps! is right and that Jon is severely wounded but not dead.

[Khal Jhaqo]

I think Jon is not AA or AAR, it's pretty clear Daenarys is AAR.

The reason why Jon 'warging' to ghost before his true death is unsavory to yolk and me also is that that means hes done! He can't warg back to human! Sure he can sniff out enemies and sneak up on Ramsey Bolton or something but he cannot communicate with people, Bran maybe but.. It's just not Jon Snow.

[Scipio Africanus]

He can't warg back to human!

And why not? There's a prologue in the series about a guy who can warg into animals and back again into humans.

Whether or not Jon will be able to warg back into his own body is another matter.

[butterbumps!]

Hmm....I know that the prologue to DwD is often cited as a case for the idea that Jon will warg into Ghost. I take a different reading from that.

For one thing, it's telling us that a person cannot warg into a dead being, and that once a warg's body is dead, there will be no more transcendence of the spirit.

The second thing it tells us is that there are ethical rules to warging, and it alerts us to the fact that Bran is in violation of half of these.

For the most part, I think the prologue has more to do with Bran than Jon. And as it pertains to Jon, I read it as more indication that he is actually "ok" at the end, since there are no loopholes to regain his body as evidenced in the prologue.

[Third World King]

And why not? There's a prologue in the series about a guy who can warg into animals and back again into humans.

Whether or not Jon will be able to warg back into his own body is another matter.

Well, if Jon transfers his spirit into ghost before his human body dies, he would have to remain an animal forever.

[Scipio Africanus]

Well, if Jon transfers his spirit into ghost before his human body dies, he would have to remain an animal forever.

Is there evidence for this? Don't mean to be rude but we don't know that much about warging other then for the prologue.

[yolkboy]

Is there evidence for this?

It happened to Orrell. To be honest, not trying to be rude, but a lot of the questions people are asking now, i've already answered in this thread.

Thanks for the interest anyway!

[Khal Jhaqo]

Maybe if he can warg into another nearby warg...? The wildlng with them boar! LOL wat was his name boroq?

Edited thanks to iPad autospell

[yolkboy]

Maybe if he can warg into another nearby warg...? The wildlng with them boar! LOL wat was his name boroq?

Edited thanks to iPad autospell

that would be so funny, but he'd still be stuck in the pig forever/ never be allowed to warg back to human again.

[butterbumps!]

Is there evidence for this? Don't mean to be rude but we don't know that much about warging other then for the prologue.

It's what happens to Varamyr in the Prologue, and it's understood that Orell had to permanently take over his eagle when he died (and Mel decisively killed him as an eagle when she burst it into flames). It does seem that a warg, by his own volition, cannot inhabit his old body again after it's had a physical death, and once his actual body dies, he cannot continue to transfer his spirit into other bodies.

It happened to Orrell. To be honest, not trying to be rude, but a lot of the questions people are asking now, i've already answered in this thread.

Thanks for the interest anyway!

I don't think you've answered a lot of the questions though, such as why it makes more sense for Jon to inhabit a dead body other than his own or Ghosts?

I can kind of see a case for what you're saying if we reorganize some of the pieces. I don't believe Jon is mortally wounded, but let's run with it for a moment. Let's say that Jon is dead, and that the cold he feels is supernatural-- the Others approaching. As you point out, we have seen evidence of a "good" wight- Coldhands- who seems to retain some of his humanity. We are given a number of suggestions in the text that there is something significant about saying your NW vows in front of a heart tree; I suspect that those who are raised from the dead by the Others, but who have said their vows at the grove just beyond the Wall are somehow protected from becoming full wights-- it makes a lot of sense given how much saying the vows in from of weirwoods are mentioned.

Now, Jon said his vows in front of the heart tree. Let's keep assuming that the Others are the cold he feels, and we know that the Others have the power to raise the dead. So let's say Jon is raised by this cold. He can still remain in his body, he can still retain some of his humanity (as per the vows), he does not need to warg into anything and be "stuck" there, and he becomes "ice" as per your OP. I don't believe this exactly, but I think it gets to an easier and more plausible speculation than the idea that he needs to warg into dead bodies.

[yolkboy]

I don't think you've answered a lot of the questions though, such as why it makes more sense for Jon to inhabit a dead body other than his own or Ghosts?

His own body is JUST about to be killed by the fourth stabbing. If he's in his body when that happens he will be DEAD full stop. If he jumps into Ghost at the moment his real body is killed, he will be stuck inside Ghost forever and will never be a human again.

-"Let's keep assuming that the Others are the cold he feels, and we know that the Others have the power to raise the dead. So let's say Jon is raised by this cold"

No, I'm saying the cold is from being inside an hard, frosty, frozen body thats trapped in a freezing cold cell made of ice.

[butterbumps!]

His own body is JUST about to be killed by the fourth stabbing. If he's in his body when that happens he will be DEAD full stop. If he jumps into Ghost at the moment his real body is killed, he will be stuck inside Ghost forever and will never be a human again.

Ok, but warging =/= the ability to reanimate someone. The Others and the "Kiss of Life" are the 2 ways we've seen reanimation happen. A warg cannot bring someone back from the dead or inhabit ANYTHING that is dead. That's the major problem with this.

If Jon is dead, then he will need either fire or ice magic to reanimate him, as warging only allows you to extend life, not completely reincarnate yourself from something dead. Since he would need an additional kind of magic for reanimation, why couldn't he just remain in his own body?

[Torrhen Snow]

Don't particarly like this theory because I assumed that Jon was alive. And Jon being a wight or an Other doesn't really strike me as someplace GRRM would go with Jon. Better to keep him alive. This could happen but I don't think it's likely. Too many ifs and assumptions not enough hard facts. Maybe Mel is nearby and will try a Kiss of life? Or a random Thoros of Mry apears! (jokes) But Mel could revive Jon assuiming he is actually dead. And maybe he didn't feel the 4th knife because it never came? Wun Wun or someone like Mel and Leathers? And three times AA forged his sword and 3 times Jon got stabbed maybe a coincident but I thought I'd throw it in there.

[Khal Jhaqo]

I don't get the logic of NW brothers killing Jon in the first place because it will be a Mexican standoff between the wildlings and the NW with the edge to the wildlings given their numbers.

If the east watch massacre all the hostages then they just signed their own death warrant.

Killing Jon serves no purpose for the NW at all, it might actually just wipe out the rest.

[yolkboy]

Don't particarly like this theory because I assumed that Jon was alive. And Jon being a wight or an Other doesn't really strike me as someplace GRRM would go with Jon. Better to keep him alive.

Remember where GRRM went with Ned Stark.... there are no limits. Plus Jon being a wight is NOT insinuating he's dea, but rather that he's very much alive, but the body he's in will be dead. He will still be the same old Jon, but with an almost immunity to the cold. He's going to need that when he goes beyong the wall. ICY poers are a parallel to the Fire powers flunted by Danys (one off ???) self burning at the pyre.

[Wylla Manderly]

First we don't know if the fourth stabbing actually happened. Jon passes out before.

And as I read the prologue it says that when the human body of the warg dies the spirit goes to the animal and is stuck there normally, because the human body is dead. But the prologue never tells us what happens when the original body is ressurected, because it never happened before. So I think it is still possible to warg back if something like a real ressurection happens.

But I'm with Butterbumps on this and hope that Jon is only severly wounded but not dead.

[yolkboy]

I don't get the logic of NW brothers killing Jon in the first place because it will be a Mexican standoff between the wildlings and the NW with the edge to the wildlings given their numbers.

If the east watch massacre all the hostages then they just signed their own death warrant.

Killing Jon serves no purpose for the NW at all, it might actually just wipe out the rest.

The wildlings didnt go 'mental' when Max Rayder was 'killed'. They simply CHOSE another leader. The nights watch CHOOSE another leader (Tormund), and so its a form of democracy that the wildlings very much adhere to and respect

The wildlings knee bending to Stannis was done from neccessity, but its not a form of leaderhip choosing that they have any real respect for. Underneath, the wildlings willl always consider their King the one who is CHOSEN.