Grizzly Mormont Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 We don't even have hints that Aegon is not real. What we have is serendipitous speculation based on peoples' feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 We don't even have hints that Aegon is not real. What we have is serendipitous speculation based on peoples' feelings.No hints? People have been speculating that we'd see a fake Aegon since ACOK, all based on the fake dragon Dany saw in the HotU. It's fine if you don't want to believe the theory, but don't act like there are no hints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Aegor was both.... The Blackfyre Pretenders flew Blackfyre like banners...Uh, no, this is incorrect. The terms "Blackfyre" and "Blackfyre Pretenders" only refer to the people who actually were Blackfyres, i.e. Daemon Blackfyre and his descendants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Mormont Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 but don't act like there are no hints.I'm not acting. there are literally no hints that Aegon is not who he says he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 I'm not acting. there are literally no hints that Aegon is not who he says he is.That's only true if you ignore the fake dragon vision, which you conveniently left out of the post you quoted. You're also ignoring Moqorro's statement to Tyrion regarding the existence of "dragons true and false." And then there's the black dragon sign itself, which you're also ignoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumant30 Posted September 11, 2012 Author Share Posted September 11, 2012 No hints? People have been speculating that we'd see a fake Aegon since ACOK, all based on the fake dragon Dany saw in the HotU. It's fine if you don't want to believe the theory, but don't act like there are no hints.Except the mummer's dragon hint there is none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Mormont Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 I am not ignoring anything. None of what you said suggests in the slightest that Aegon is not who he says he is. There are literally no hints that Aegon is fake. "a cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd." this is a hint that dany will attend a Chinese new year celebration. it doesn't hint at anything about Aegon. it may be Aegon, it may be about Chinese new year celebrations. Explain to me how it is a hint that Aegon is not who he say he is?Explain to me how any of what you said is a hint that Aegon is not who he says he is. The only thing ignored here is my claim, because no hints that Aegon is not who he says he is exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 We don't even have hints that Aegon is not real. What we have is serendipitous speculation based on peoples' feelings.This drives me crazy. You have your theory, I have mine, that's fine. But I think these arguments could go a lot easier if people who thought that Aegon was the real deal didn't keep trying to place the Faegon theory in the same category as "Varys is Lady Merryweather" or the Winterfell dragon. If GRRM didn't want people to question whether Aegon was the real thing or not, he wouldn't have featured so many characters questioning whether Aegon was the real thing or not. You might as well say that there's no mystery about who Jon's mother is (Ned says it's Wylla, right?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Mormont Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 featured so many characters questioning whether Aegon was the real thing or not. which characters question this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 "a cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd."this is a hint that dany will attend a Chinese new year celebration. it doesn't hint at anything about Aegon. it may be Aegon, it may be about Chinese new year celebrations. Explain to me how it is a hint that Aegon is not who he say he is?If the choice is between "Aegon is fake" and "Dany will attend a Chinese new year celebration", I'm going to have to go with the former. Unless Dany somehow discovers a portal to our world, which I sincerely hope does not happen.Explain to me how any of what you said is a hint that Aegon is not who he says he is. The only thing ignored here is my claim, because no hints that Aegon is not who he says he is exist.Look, you may have alternative interpretations of these hints, but that does not mean these hints do not exist. That's all I'm saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Mormont Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 You might as well say that there's no mystery about who Jon's mother is (Ned says it's Wylla, right?).Yes, except there are legitimate, direct hints that Jon is not who Ned says he is. There are no hints that Aegon is not who he says he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 which characters question this?The first time Aegon is mentioned in ADWD, it's because the smallfolk in White Harbor are questioning whether he truly died or not. Harry Strickland says to the other members of the Golden Company that many will question Aegon's story, and that they need Daenerys to help prove it. Kevan Lannister thinks that he isn't sure whether Tywin killed the real Aegon or not. Tyrion thinks to himself that Aegon "may be a real Targaryen after all." GRRM consistently presents Aegon's story as something that's in doubt.None of this proves that Aegon is a fake, by itself. But it's clear evidence that GRRM wants the reader to question whether Aegon is the real deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Yes, except there are legitimate, direct hints that Jon is not who Ned says he is.Would you care to name what those hints are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Mormont Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Look, you may have alternative interpretations of these hints, but that does not mean these hints do not exist. That's all I'm saying.I don't have any interpretation. I don't know or care if aegon is real or fake. I'm merely asking you to explain how that dragon on poles quote has anything to do with Aegon being real or fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Randyll Tarly also openly denies that Aegon is who he says he is. It seems clear to me that George is setting up a storyline in which some people question Aegon's heritage, and others accept it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 I don't have any interpretation. I don't know or care if aegon is real or fake. I'm merely asking you to explain how that dragon on poles quote has anything to do with Aegon being real or fake.It is a symbol of a fake dragon being controlled by a mummer, associated with the line "slayer of lies." Aegon is a dragon under the "control" of the mummer, Varys. It makes sense to conjecture further that if this portion of the vision applies to Aegon, then the other portion, that of the dragon's fakeness, also applies to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Mormont Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 you're skipping a step. there is no evidence that any of the mummer's dragon, cloth dragon, has anything to do with Aegon. your argument, as far as I can tell, is: there will be a fake dragon therefore Aegon is fake. that doesn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 you're skipping a step. there is no evidence that any of the mummer's dragon, cloth dragon, has anything to do with Aegon. Aside from his connection with Varys (hence, _mummer's_ dragon) and the fact that his origin story has been repeatedly questioned, you mean? And we're not exactly swimming in candidates for false dragons here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Mormont Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 we're not exactly swimming in candidates for false dragons here.well the pool isn't full yet. no diving in the shallow water... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 It occurs to me that Dragonfish and I have actually been understating the degree to which GRRM has cast doubt on Aegon's origins. Because, of course, we've both been ignoring the fact that GRRM spent four books telling the reader repeatedly that Aegon was stone cold dead. Ned says it, Aemon says it, Oberyn, Tywin, Tyrion, Daenerys, etc., etc. So after four books of "Aegon was murdered by Gregor Clegane" and one book of "maybe he wasn't", why doesn't the burden of proof lie with the people who claim that GRRM has repeatedly misled the reader about Aegon's ultimate fate?Again, none of this is proof. But once you get down to proof, the case for Aegon being the real deal comes down to two things:1) Varys wouldn't lie to Kevan in that circumstance, which is debatable; and2) Tyrion figured it out, which is weak sauce.well the pool isn't full yet. no diving in the shallow water...So your vote is for a mummer's dragon to be named later? It's getting pretty late in the day for that, I would think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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