The Wise Man's Fear IX [Spoilers & Speculation]

[Nisheeth]

No. Not spoiling for a fight. Sincerely, as above, interested in an actual case to be made for love of Denna.

Most folks look at what's presented and see the formula they expect from countless stories, allow that assumption to reverberate back and forth through their reading and thinking, and draw conclusions from it. I noticed that the text was spare with trust and love and wondered why, given that primary assumption. I was as surprised to find Simmon there as you are incredulous about the suggestion.

So yah, Denna makes a good centerpiece for a tragic love story. An, in truth, I believe that's the bulk of what we're getting, particularly when we take into account the stories the author name checks and his comments about what he's doing. I actually think the story turns on the sequence of events around those ten words I posted above.

However, Tears and myself aside, Denna doesn't seem to be a popular character. Some folks despise her. Some find her unreal. Some find her subordinate. Some fault her apparent profession. A fair number hold out hope that Kvothe will, like, get together with someone else.

I don't think that's an accident. She's kept at a distance by Kvothe in the story and by Kvothe as the narrator. And he doesn't trust her, and I don't think he'll come to trust her. So loved, lost? Maybe. Trusted, and was betrayed? Probably not. He'd be a colossal fuck up to trust Denna at this point.

Actually, I like Denna quite a bit myself.

And thinking about it, Kvothe has, in a way, Loved and Lost already. He loved his troupe, and lost it. Though doing that would definitely kill the story for me.

[two_by_two]

No. Not spoiling for a fight. Sincerely, as above, interested in an actual case to be made for love of Denna.

Most folks look at what's presented and see the formula they expect from countless stories, allow that assumption to reverberate back and forth through their reading and thinking, and draw conclusions from it. I noticed that the text was spare with trust and love and wondered why, given that primary assumption. I was as surprised to find Simmon there as you are incredulous about the suggestion.

So yah, Denna makes a good centerpiece for a tragic love story. An, in truth, I believe that's the bulk of what we're getting, particularly when we take into account the stories the author name checks and his comments about what he's doing. I actually think the story turns on the sequence of events around those ten words I posted above.

However, Tears and myself aside, Denna doesn't seem to be a popular character. Some folks despise her. Some find her unreal. Some find her subordinate. Some fault her apparent profession. A fair number hold out hope that Kvothe will, like, get together with someone else.

I don't think that's an accident. She's kept at a distance by Kvothe in the story and by Kvothe as the narrator. And he doesn't trust her, and I don't think he'll come to trust her. So loved, lost? Maybe. Trusted, and was betrayed? Probably not. He'd be a colossal fuck up to trust Denna at this point.

He trusts her enough to show her the secret back way into his room at the University. She trusts him enough to play her in-progress song for him. He trusts her enough not to pry into her backstory or attempt to learn the identity of her patron (except for that one time he follows her, of course, mustn't forget that), and she trusts him enough not to inquire as to his backstory either. And perhaps more importantly, he trusts that she will come back to him. Coming from someone who lost everyone close to him when he wandered off, and after spending three years in a place where you can't trust anyone not to rob you blind and kill you in your sleep, I am shocked he lets her as close as he does.

[thistlepong]

Oh, I think the case for Denna loving and trusting Kvothe is pretty solid. I think she gets continually burned by it, though: the note she leaves in the window, his reaction to her song, needing to force an oath about her patron. But at least you're, y'know, giving it some effort.

Does he view the back way into his room at Ankers as secret or convenient? I ask 'cause Denna's not the only other person who knows about it and I don't remember him checking to make sure no one was watching before heading up. I took his unwillingness to pry into her backstory as a sort of Mexican standoff born of fear and teenage ineloquence; he's not gonna show her his, so he can't rightly ask to see hers. That last one has some real resonance. I want to deny it and hedge around it, but it bears looking at. Thanks.

[Talvivaara]

Hi, just came to say that I really love these books and these threads are really awesome, and offer a lot of insight. I've read most of them now, but not all. I have some own thoughts as well I might share some time when I have more time.

[Tears of Lys]

Welcome! I know I, for one, would love to hear your thoughts. Just when I think we've wrung every last bit of theory and conjecture out of this story, someone comes along with a new twist.

[jumbles]

Several things:

1. Social taboos in Ademre may be designed to make it more difficult to learn a person's name. Besides the obvious one of not telling anyone their 'true' name, not showing emotion or performing artistically may also be to protect names.
   
2. Since Ademre = Adem and maybe Imre = Amary = Amyr, perhaps Renere was founded by the Rhinta (aka Chandrian)
   
3. A few people (Bast, Threpe, Elodin, and Fela) refer to 'tiny gods.' What are they?
   
4. Another object that is described as being like both a stone and glass is a river stone. When Fela made her ring of stone, it was from a river stone, and the resulting ring was "smooth as polished glass" (WMFc43).
   
5. Perhaps the Duke of Cormisant is Master Ash. When drunk he beats whoever is nearby (WMFc74).
   
6. Hespe thinks of Taborlin's cloak "as a dirty grey. Sort of washed out from his being on the road all the time" (WMFc83). Kvothe thinks of it "like a quilt. Made entirely out of patchwork, a bunch of different colored rags and scraps" (WMFc83). Bast at one point wraps "a rag blanket around his shoulders like a shawl. It was a chaos of ill-matching fabric and faded color except for a bright red heart sewn squarely in the center" (WMFc151). Does Bast have Taborlin's cloak? Or is it at least meant to appear similar to us?
   

[Nisheeth]

A few people (Bast, Threpe, Elodin, and Fela) refer to 'tiny gods.' What are they?

Could you tell where they were referenced? I can't seem to be able to remember reading them (probably didn't paid attention).

[jumbles]

Could you tell where they were referenced? I can't seem to be able to remember reading them (probably didn't paid attention).

Bast mentions them in WMFc1.

Threpe mentions them in WMFc22.

Elodin likens namers to them in WMFc43.

Fela mentions them in WMFc149.

Oh, and the 'g' in Gods is capitalized in all cases except when Threpe uses the phrase.

[Nisheeth]

Bast mentions them in WMFc1.

Threpe mentions them in WMFc22.

Elodin likens namers to them in WMFc43.

Fela mentions them in WMFc149.

Oh, and the 'g' in Gods is capitalized in all cases except when Threpe uses the phrase.

Can't seem to get any idea about who those might be. But I think that in Elodin's case, he was just considering that Namers have power like gods (and this reminds me of the mentality of the shapers), but to a much lesser extent, hence 'little'.

[instantdeath999]

Just realized this book had a thread, probably should have asked the question I asked in the book recommendations thread here. Essentially: would you recommend reading the two Rothfuss books that are out now, or waiting until the third cmes out to get to read the whole trilogy?

[Nisheeth]

Just realized this book had a thread, probably should have asked the question I asked in the book recommendations thread here. Essentially: would you recommend reading the two Rothfuss books that are out now, or waiting until the third cmes out to get to read the whole trilogy?

I think that it depends on your preference. If you can't wait for long, reading it now might not be the best idea. Waiting for a book to be published for years in not easy.

But if you do read it now, you can come here, read the thread until now, and then become a part of the discussion. :)

[Loslathdos]

Bast mentions them in WMFc1.

Threpe mentions them in WMFc22.

Elodin likens namers to them in WMFc43.

Fela mentions them in WMFc149.

Oh, and the 'g' in Gods is capitalized in all cases except when Threpe uses the phrase.

I think Auri says it when talking about the underthing, some like 'Tiny gods yes'

[jumbles]

I think Auri says it when talking about the underthing, some like 'Tiny gods yes'

I can't find an instance of her saying "tiny Gods," but she does say, "Holy God, yes" when speaking of the bone-tar in the underthing.

Just realized this book had a thread, probably should have asked the question I asked in the book recommendations thread here. Essentially: would you recommend reading the two Rothfuss books that are out now, or waiting until the third cmes out to get to read the whole trilogy?

If you like trying to puzzle out what will happen in future books then start reading now; these books have PLENTY to theorize about. If you don't, then maybe you should wait. Also, you should perhaps avoid this thread until you've read the first two books, as there are spoilers galore here.

I just re-read the part of WMF where Kvothe hears Felurian's voice for the first time. "Her words were clear and sweet as the rising and falling notes of a distant flute. It reminded me of something I could not press my finger to" (WMFc95).

I searched the books for the word 'flute.' The only other person I found whose voice is like a flute is Kvothe's mother. "In the silence my mother's voice was like a flute" (NotWc12). That surprised me; I was expecting to find that Denna's voice was like a flute.

Also, the listener in Hespe's story has this to say about flutes: "And all flutes are meant to play beguiling music" (WMFc88).

[Tears of Lys]

That bit about Felurian's voice reminding Kvothe of a flute, that sounds like foreshadowing of her true name being something musical. As I recall, Kvothe sang it.

These books are wonderful. The digger you deep, the more you find!

[Loslathdos]

I can't find an instance of her saying "tiny Gods," but she does say, "Holy God, yes" when speaking of the bone-tar in the underthing.

I guess this is what I thought of

[instantdeath999]

Yeah, I will admit I'm the type who likes to read a complete story, if the option is available. For ASOIAF, it's somewhat fun to have to wait for the pay off, but if I could choose, I think I'd definintely prefer to read the entire series. I'm actually reading Wheel of Time for the first time, and have timed my reading in a way where I'll be able to read the entire series in one go, finishing just a few days before AMOL.

That said, I'm really anxious to read these books. World building is great, don't get me wrong, but my absolute favorite type of novels are novels that are really character driven. I've heard "character driven" suits Rothfuss' books very well. I think I will decide when a release date is announced. If it's something like 2015, I'll just read them now, but I can easily wait until mid-to-late 2013 or so.

I can't find an instance of her saying "tiny Gods," but she does say, "Holy God, yes" when speaking of the bone-tar in the underthing.

If you like trying to puzzle out what will happen in future books then start reading now; these books have PLENTY to theorize about. If you don't, then maybe you should wait. Also, you should perhaps avoid this thread until you've read the first two books, as there are spoilers galore here.

I just re-read the part of WMF where Kvothe hears Felurian's voice for the first time. "Her words were clear and sweet as the rising and falling notes of a distant flute. It reminded me of something I could not press my finger to" (WMFc95).

I searched the books for the word 'flute.' The only other person I found whose voice is like a flute is Kvothe's mother. "In the silence my mother's voice was like a flute" (NotWc12). That surprised me; I was expecting to find that Denna's voice was like a flute.

Also, the listener in Hespe's story has this to say about flutes: "And all flutes are meant to play beguiling music" (WMFc88).

Yeah, I'm careful when reading threads like this. Even so, I find spoilers for a series you know nothing about usually don't mean too much, since you have no idea what anyone is talking about.

[two_by_two]

Several things:

1. Social taboos in Ademre may be designed to make it more difficult to learn a person's name. Besides the obvious one of not telling anyone their 'true' name, not showing emotion or performing artistically may also be to protect names.
   
   
2. Since Ademre = Adem and maybe Imre = Amary = Amyr, perhaps Renere was founded by the Rhinta (aka Chandrian)
   
   
3. A few people (Bast, Threpe, Elodin, and Fela) refer to 'tiny gods.' What are they?
   
   
4. Another object that is described as being like both a stone and glass is a river stone. When Fela made her ring of stone, it was from a river stone, and the resulting ring was "smooth as polished glass" (WMFc43).
   
   
5. Perhaps the Duke of Cormisant is Master Ash. When drunk he beats whoever is nearby (WMFc74).
   
   
6. Hespe thinks of Taborlin's cloak "as a dirty grey. Sort of washed out from his being on the road all the time" (WMFc83). Kvothe thinks of it "like a quilt. Made entirely out of patchwork, a bunch of different colored rags and scraps" (WMFc83). Bast at one point wraps "a rag blanket around his shoulders like a shawl. It was a chaos of ill-matching fabric and faded color except for a bright red heart sewn squarely in the center" (WMFc151). Does Bast have Taborlin's cloak? Or is it at least meant to appear similar to us?
   

1. Whoa that is an interesting theory. I'm not sure I buy the "not showing emotion" part, because they do show emotion, just using different articulators. I like the not performing artistically part, though. That being said, it seems that Kvothe learns Felurian's name without using those.

3. See below.

6. Oh snap. I like this a lot. I don't really have a lot to add besides that.

Bast mentions them in WMFc1.

Threpe mentions them in WMFc22.

Elodin likens namers to them in WMFc43.

Fela mentions them in WMFc149.

Oh, and the 'g' in Gods is capitalized in all cases except when Threpe uses the phrase.

Interesting. It's generally used as a basic expletive, except for when Elodin uses it. I expect Threpe's lack of capitalization is a typo, rather like "singers". If I had to venture a guess, I would place it as a generic, layman's term for those supernatural entities we stumble across now and then.

Just realized this book had a thread, probably should have asked the question I asked in the book recommendations thread here. Essentially: would you recommend reading the two Rothfuss books that are out now, or waiting until the third cmes out to get to read the whole trilogy?

Read the two that are out and spend time with us on here speculating wildly about the third one.

[jumbles]

1. Whoa that is an interesting theory. I'm not sure I buy the "not showing emotion" part, because they do show emotion, just using different articulators. I like the not performing artistically part, though. That being said, it seems that Kvothe learns Felurian's name without using those.

You are correct that they show emotion. But they show it in a way that is incomprehensible to the majority of people. So most potential namers would have a harder time discovering their names.

[jumbles]

I just re-read the part of WMF where Kvothe hears Felurian's voice for the first time. "Her words were clear and sweet as the rising and falling notes of a distant flute. It reminded me of something I could not press my finger to" (WMFc95).

I searched the books for the word 'flute.' The only other person I found whose voice is like a flute is Kvothe's mother. "In the silence my mother's voice was like a flute" (NotWc12). That surprised me; I was expecting to find that Denna's voice was like a flute.

Also, the listener in Hespe's story has this to say about flutes: "And all flutes are meant to play beguiling music" (WMFc88).

Hmm, I should have read a little further. Later Kvothe says that only Elodin's voice was like Felurian's.

[thistlepong]

That said, I'm really anxious to read these books. World building is great, don't get me wrong, but my absolute favorite type of novels are novels that are really character driven. I've heard "character driven" suits Rothfuss' books very well. I think I will decide when a release date is announced. If it's something like 2015, I'll just read them now, but I can easily wait until mid-to-late 2013 or so.

I'd guess there's little to no chance the third book will come out next year. My enjoyment derives in large part from wondering. That was somewhat the case after reading the first book and vastly moreso after the second.