Oberyn Martell-Who Should Play The Red Viper Of Dorne ?

[PatrickStormborn]

Sorry, that doesnt work, you're just trying to contract out the argument. If you can't tell me why one physical alteration of a character is fine but another one then you shouldnt make the claim.

I've provided you with links to show why brownface is racist. I can copy and paste a load of text over for you, but what's the point if you're not even going to bother reading it?

Book and page number please.

This information is readily available to you - it doesn't take a lot of effort to google "Tyrion meeting Oberyn Martell".

Anyway, it's in ASoS, Tyrion V, just before the events at Queenscrown.

[King Daemon Blackfyre]

How is Purefoy getting a tan racist but having Harry Lloyd in a blond wig just fine?

Are you serious???

I've provided you with links to show why brownface is racist. I can copy and paste a load of text over for you, but what's the point if you're not even going to bother reading it?

Yeah, I mean comparing brownface to wearing a wig. WTF??

This information is readily available to you - it doesn't take a lot of effort to google "Tyrion meeting Oberyn Martell".

Anyway, it's in ASoS, Tyrion V, just before the events at Queenscrown.

Indeed, Tyrion goes through the physical characteristics of salty, sandy and stony Dornishmen, and then describes Oberyn as:

A salty Dornishman, for certain

Anyway, no support for Hrithik Roshan as the Red Viper? (He'll never get it, but we can still speculate as to whether he suits the role).

[The Dragon King]

I've provided you with links to show why brownface is racist. I can copy and paste a load of text over for you, but what's the point if you're not even going to bother reading it?

This information is readily available to you - it doesn't take a lot of effort to google "Tyrion meeting Oberyn Martell".

Anyway, it's in ASoS, Tyrion V, just before the events at Queenscrown.

Ok, I found the part in ASoS and I concede that he is certainly a Salty Dornishman. That said, your link is worthless, as it doesn't explain why it's fine for the Wayans brother to dress up as white females but wrong for James Purefoy to get a tan to portray a character with darker skin than he has naturally. It's a double standard and the your links.

It's just a bunch of people that complain because no on tells them to get a life.

As much as I enjoy picking out actors to play a role based on their looks it's really mental masturbation until you really look at whether they have the skills to pull off the part. From what I've seen of Purefoy in Rome he can absolutely crush the part, with a bit of a tan he'd be ready to go.

The casting directors job is to get actors to make the best show possible, not to advance your political agenda.

[Éadaoin]

As much as I enjoy picking out actors to play a role based on their looks it's really mental masturbation until you really look at whether they have the skills to pull off the part. From what I've seen of Purefoy in Rome he can absolutely crush the part, with a bit of a tan he'd be ready to go.

And you don't think there's an actor out there who both looks the part AND can act?

[The Dragon King]

And you don't think there's an actor out there who both looks the part AND can act?

I never said that. I just think it's foolish to dismiss someone who can act the part at a very high level simply because he'd need a little physical help, which is routinely done in movies.

[Éadaoin]

I never said that. I just think it's foolish to dismiss someone who can act the part at a very high level simply because he'd need a little physical help, which is routinely done in movies.

I admit I'm not sure whether the Dornish are POC or not, I could have possibly missed something in the books that was completely obvious, but if the salty Dornish are non-white, there is the problem of brownface. I'm not an expert on race relations by any means, but brownface and blackface have been used to erase and mock people of color for years and years. It would be in extremely bad taste to use brownface in this instance, especially when there are plenty of actors who do fit the physical description. Again, this is if the Dornish are non-white, which I admit I'm a little blurry on. Perhaps someone else knows.

[King Daemon Blackfyre]

I admit I'm not sure whether the Dornish are POC or not, I could have possibly missed something in the books that was completely obvious, but if the salty Dornish are non-white, there is the problem of brownface. I'm not an expert on race relations by any means, but brownface and blackface have been used to erase and mock people of color for years and years. It would be in extremely bad taste to use brownface in this instance, especially when there are plenty of actors who do fit the physical description. Again, this is if the Dornish are non-white, which I admit I'm a little blurry on. Perhaps someone else knows.

Some Dornish are POC and/or of a 'Mediterranean persuasion' (salty and sandy), some aren't (stony). Oberyn is definitely salty.

[Éadaoin]

Some Dornish are POC and/or of a 'Mediterranean persuasion' (salty and sandy), some aren't (stony). Oberyn is definitely salty.

Thanks, I was unclear on that.

[King Daemon Blackfyre]

why it's fine for the Wayans brother to dress up as white females

That was a comedic parody, like Robert Downey as Kirk Lazarus playing blackface Sergeant Lincoln Osiris in Tropic Thunder.

GOT is not comedic parody.

[trooogdooor]

“George just told me I look like Lady Nymeria.”

http://media.tumblr....qajaz9.jpg[/img]

Janina Gavankar is an Indian-American actress of mixed Indian and Dutch descent. Either that’s a smooth pick-up line and George was bullshitting, or he actually has an idea of what he wanted the Salty Dornish to look like.

GRRM's stony silence about casting choices which are very different from his characters, and his numerous statements in interviews that he's agreed to not voice his criticisms or denounce D+D when they do something he disagrees with, tell us something about his feelings. He's not a strict purist, but has expressed that he wants the story told to be his story. Realistic purism. It's a fairly sympathetic position to take, for the writer of the world, imho.

I think D+D should do their best to cast true to GRRMs world, because they claim to keep close to GRRMs world whenever possible. Appearance in GRRM is no less important than it is in Tolkien...

*

Some of you people above (I'm looking at you, Patrick) seem to suddenly think that casting should match GRRM.

Well, good for you. But you approve of changing Xaro (small gay creepy milkman noble --> towering straight pleasant black dockworker ), so your argument for adherence to GRRM carries no weight. Empty, hollow. You're inconsistent and unprincipled. Your love for GRRM is transparently secondary to your love of politics, when it comes to casting.

[The Dragon King]

That was a comedic parody, like Robert Downey as Kirk Lazarus playing blackface Sergeant Lincoln Osiris in Tropic Thunder.

GOT is not comedic parody.

I'm curious, have you seen the recent Robin Hood movie w/Russell Crowe? The actor hired to play King Richard was lightened for the role, are you ok with that or is that 'whitefacing' by your standards?

http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/11800000/King-Richard-The-Lionheart-robin-hood-2010-11883444-800-531.jpg

http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3339038720/nm0396812

There are tons of other instances of that happening, so I'm very curious about what's ok/not ok and why.

[King Daemon Blackfyre]

I'm curious, have you seen the recent Robin Hood movie w/Russell Crowe? The actor hired to play King Richard was lightened for the role, are you ok with that or is that 'whitefacing' by your standards?

http://images2.fanpo...444-800-531.jpg

http://www.imdb.com/...38720/nm0396812

There are tons of other instances of that happening, so I'm very curious about what's ok/not ok and why.

Danny Huston needed 'lightening'? Pointless. No, that is not 'whitefacing', as Huston and Richard the Lionheart are both clearly white men.

I'll just re-emphasise what a poster above said:

but if the salty Dornish are non-white, there is the problem of brownface. I'm not an expert on race relations by any means, but brownface and blackface have been used to erase and mock people of color for years and years. It would be in extremely bad taste to use brownface in this instance, especially when there are plenty of actors who do fit the physical description.

Why should GOT go down the brownface route at all?

[PatrickStormborn]

Ok, I found the part in ASoS and I concede that he is certainly a Salty Dornishman. That said, your link is worthless, as it doesn't explain why it's fine for the Wayans brother to dress up as white females but wrong for James Purefoy to get a tan to portray a character with darker skin than he has naturally. It's a double standard and the your links.

It's just a bunch of people that complain because no on tells them to get a life.

POC have a history of being oppressed and erased in the media, white people do not.

People complain about oppression because they are, you know, tired of being oppressed. Thankfully some people actually speak out about these issues, or we could still be living in a world eerily similar to that of the 1950s.

As much as I enjoy picking out actors to play a role based on their looks it's really mental masturbation until you really look at whether they have the skills to pull off the part. From what I've seen of Purefoy in Rome he can absolutely crush the part, with a bit of a tan he'd be ready to go.

The casting directors job is to get actors to make the best show possible, not to advance your political agenda.

Well I'm sure Sean Bean in a wig had the skills to pull off Cersei Lannister. But I'm confident that you would not have been supportive of that decision, would you? So why is appearance only unimportant when it comes to characters of colour?

I admit I'm not sure whether the Dornish are POC or not, I could have possibly missed something in the books that was completely obvious, but if the salty Dornish are non-white, there is the problem of brownface. I'm not an expert on race relations by any means, but brownface and blackface have been used to erase and mock people of color for years and years. It would be in extremely bad taste to use brownface in this instance, especially when there are plenty of actors who do fit the physical description. Again, this is if the Dornish are non-white, which I admit I'm a little blurry on. Perhaps someone else knows.

Two types of Dornish are definitely non-white. The other type (stony) are the closest to being white, but they would instantly be recognisable as being Dornish.

[Tormund Giant*****]

I kind of hope they cast all Albino's for the Martell's just to watch shit explode on here.

But also, Edward James Olmos for Doran Martell. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001579/ with Cliff Simon as Oberyn http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0800101/

[The Dragon King]

Danny Huston needed 'lightening'? Pointless. No, that is not 'whitefacing', as Huston and Richard the Lionheart are both clearly white men

Hmmm, so if 2 people are in the same category you lump them in it's fine to alter them but if they fall outside then it's not ok, is that what you're saying? It's funny cause Huston is partially of Indian background, so is he "white"? If not, are you upset that a non-white was made up to look like he's white?

On that note, many Indians look very white. Take a look at Hrithrik Roshan, specifically at his facial structure, he's basically a tanned white guy, so is it "whitewashing" to cast him as Doran?

http://topnews.in/light/files/hrithik_roshan_.jpg

I'm just very curious to know exactly how you come up with your determinations on who is considered what and why.

Is Obama black? I mean, his mom is white making him as much white as he is black but it seems as though it's been decided that he's black. What if there's a "black" actor that has a non-black grandparent, do they still count as black?

Why should GOT go down the brownface route at all?

It's only "Brownface" because you claim it's brownface. Brownfacing was done to further stereotypes and because they didnt want to hire blacks, neither one of those are applicable to the selection of James Purefoy as Oberlyn, they'd be hiring him because he'd be great in the role. Lena Headey isn't a natural blond and some actresses might actually look like more like an idealized Cersei but Headly was probably a better fit for the character, so the work around is to give them a wig, the work around with Purefoy is to tell him have him go on vacation to some place sunny for a few weeks and you're good to go.

[The Dragon King]

POC have a history of being oppressed and erased in the media, white people do not.

People complain about oppression because they are, you know, tired of being oppressed. Thankfully some people actually speak out about these issues, or we could still be living in a world eerily similar to that of the 1950s.

Ok, so just to be clear, you're admitting to advocating different standards for different people? I just want to make sure I understand where you're coming from.

Well I'm sure Sean Bean in a wig had the skills to pull off Cersei Lannister. But I'm confident that you would not have been supportive of that decision, would you? So why is appearance only unimportant when it comes to characters of colour?

That's a pretty funny image. Actually no, Bean does not possess the skills to pull off Cersei Lannister. No one is going to buy a guy dressed in drag as one of the most beautiful women in the kingdom.

Also, when did I say that appearance is "unimportant"? Appearance can have a very big impact on whether a actor is right for the role, I loved Conan Stevens because he was so physically imposing and had such a dominating presence, the other guy they had in season 2 was a big disappointment in comparison.

So, in keeping with appearance I advocated giving Purefoy a tan specifically so he would more closely resemble the description of Oberlyn.

[trooogdooor]

Ok, so just to be clear, you're admitting to advocating different standards for different people? I just want to make sure I understand where you're coming from.

dou·ble stand·ard

Noun: A rule or principle that is unfairly applied in different ways to different people or groups.

He's pretty straightforward and honest about his racism. In his moral system, discrimination against the ethnic group he hates is ipso facto good, no principles or fairness need apply. It's precisely the unfairness itself that is the desired goal - regardless of how rich and privileged the POC is, or how poor the white person is.

If anything, we should be happy that he just straight out declares his racist double standard. There's no need to interrogate further, imho.

[King Daemon Blackfyre]

Hmmm, so if 2 people are in the same category you lump them in it's fine to alter them but if they fall outside then it's not ok, is that what you're saying? It's funny cause Huston is partially of Indian background, so is he "white"? If not, are you upset that a non-white was made up to look like he's white?

On that note, many Indians look very white. Take a look at Hrithrik Roshan, specifically at his facial structure, he's basically a tanned white guy, so is it "whitewashing" to cast him as Doran?

http://topnews.in/li...hik_roshan_.jpg

I'm just very curious to know exactly how you come up with your determinations on who is considered what and why.

Is Obama black? I mean, his mom is white making him as much white as he is black but it seems as though it's been decided that he's black. What if there's a "black" actor that has a non-black grandparent, do they still count as black?

Woah, woah, woah. I'm not trying to dictate how people identify AT ALL. I am not trying to 'Iump' anyone together or exclude anyone. I had no idea that Danny Huston was partially Indian, that's really interesting. I believe 'race' to be a silly concept anyway, so I would not even attempt to determine who is considered what and why (e.g. whether Obama black or white, whether Huston is white or not, my reaction is who cares?).

This ethnicity stuff is such a vexed issue, but I'll just personally re-iterate that I find the idea of GOT even considering 'brownfacing' someone to play Oberyn pretty outrageous. James Purefoy is a fantastic actor, but he is clearly not a salty Dornishman. Huston (despite being mixed race) still clearly looks like King Richard, but for example Alexander Siddig or Cliff Curtis clearly wouldn't so I would be against 'whitefacing' them up and casting them as Richard. Thus, yes I object to POC being made up to look like whites, just like I object to whites being made up to look like POC.

It's only "Brownface" because you claim it's brownface. Brownfacing was done to further stereotypes and because they didnt want to hire blacks, neither one of those are applicable to the selection of James Purefoy as Oberlyn, they'd be hiring him because he'd be great in the role.

Its brownface because Purefoy is not a salty Dornishman. Why would they need to do this when there are plenty of other great actors out there who both look the part and can act the role?

For the record, I consider the miscasting of Xaro on the show (changing him from a creepy, effeminately, homosexual white nobleman to a straight, masculine, black self-made commoner in Qarth) to be a terrible decision, and just one of several very bad changes in Season 2.

[PatrickStormborn]

dou·ble stand·ard

Noun: A rule or principle that is unfairly applied in different ways to different people or groups.

He's pretty straightforward and honest about his racism. In his moral system, discrimination against the ethnic group he hates is ipso facto good, no principles or fairness need apply. It's precisely the unfairness itself that is the desired goal - regardless of how rich and privileged the POC is, or how poor the white person is.

If anything, we should be happy that he just straight out declares his racist double standard. There's no need to interrogate further, imho.

Congratulations on the patronising and ridiculous post. But guess what? I'm white.

ETA:

Ok, so just to be clear, you're admitting to advocating different standards for different people? I just want to make sure I understand where you're coming from.

The world we live in means that brownface and blackface are still used in the media to erase POC. Whiteface is a parody specifically designed to make fun of the use of blackface and brownface. They are so incredibly different that they are incomparable, and comparing them shows an ignorance of the suffering of POC.

That's a pretty funny image. Actually no, Bean does not possess the skills to pull off Cersei Lannister. No one is going to buy a guy dressed in drag as one of the most beautiful women in the kingdom.

Also, when did I say that appearance is "unimportant"? Appearance can have a very big impact on whether a actor is right for the role, I loved Conan Stevens because he was so physically imposing and had such a dominating presence, the other guy they had in season 2 was a big disappointment in comparison.

So, in keeping with appearance I advocated giving Purefoy a tan specifically so he would more closely resemble the description of Oberlyn.

So we both agree that appearance is just as important as the quality of the performance, yes? In that case, an actor should definitely be ruled out if they don't look like the character. Purefoy looks NOTHING like Oberyn -- he doesn't look sly or racially different from the other people in Westeros, and THAT is why he can't play Oberyn.

Oberyn is a POC -- he's not simply "tanned". Whitewashing him would be racist.

[Ser Dermett Corbray]

Oh look, another thread has become a discussion about whitewashing. We didn't have enough of them already.

Purefoy would be a good Red Viper, based on his performance as the swaggering Mark Antony in Rome.

Think Henry Ian Cusick looks closer to a thematic Oberyn though.

Cusick: http://i.imgur.com/nzaWg.jpg

Fan art: http://i.imgur.com/j1mVO.jpg

Haven't seen his acting though so I can't comment on that.