Arkantos Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 His body is dead, his mind could be elsewhere, it'd be surprising if somebody who couldnt warg managed to father 3, or 2 if you don't think Jon's his. Maybe more if Sansa is one too, Lady seemed to obey her well and act lady-like despite being a wolf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldora92 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 If Mel is working with Varys and helped with the escape then the mystery mans voice could have been changed too. Or a mummer. Or he could be a faceless man (perhaps Syrio was a FM and took neds place)Bodies and heads looking similar IS mentioned throughout, which would serve as evidence that he could possibly be alive. As I stated earlier, people who had known Bran and Rickon all their lives just took the 2 hanging bodies as proof of their demise, people see what they want to see... Neds death could have easily been staged...I think he is alive, and hope he is alive, but unlike most people I am open to the possibility that I am wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGtargaryen Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 yes but Bran and Rickon's "bodies" were burnt and destroyed lumps of flesh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 so some guy just volunteers to portray Ned Stark in Varys' next broadway spectacular, Dead Lord Walking? Why would someone volunteer to be executed and play along with being Ned Stark? Oh wait unless it was Littlefinger going all Tale of Two Cities on us....I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong, just not when it comes to Ned being dead. I mean, Sansa might have said that the several day old, tarred, spiked head of her father didn't look like him, but she still thought it was. And I'm pretty sure that when she watched it get chopped off she still thought it was Ned's. I'm just wondering what would make you think that he's alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkantos Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 I gotta agree, I find my idea of him warging into a wight and becoming Coldhands far more plausible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldora92 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Why would someone volunteer to be executed and play along with being Ned Stark?I'm just wondering what would make you think that he's alive.I take it you did not read my post suggesting that he would have been a prisoner who was going to die anyway, but was told his family will be taken care of if he goes through with it...Circumstantial evidence and hope is what makes me think he is alive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldora92 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 I gotta agree, I find my idea of him warging into a wight and becoming Coldhands far more plausible.If I am wrong and If he is a warg I find it more likely that he warged into a member of the crowd, or Yoren, in the show, just before the head is cut off, we see him looking arround the crowd (it may be for Arya, but it could be for a vessel) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PetitOiseau Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 I'll only name a few... lolSandor is almost certainly alive and digging graves on the QI...Ned is definitely dead! Syrio is definitely dead!Jon is almost certainly alive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Kelsey Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 What is UP with people saying Rhaegar is mentioned too much not to be alive? Couldn't GRRM be letting us know this information because he wants us to know how many different people thought the same/different things of him? Also, the people who mentioned him/thought of him in POV had a personal interest in him and were thinking of specific events/people when he came to mind (IE: Ned & his sister, Cersei & Maggy the Frog, Robert thinking of Lyanna, Dany asking Selmy about her brother). While I admit, the information may be there for a reason coming up later on, I don't think it's because Rhaegar is alive. If so, GRRM better make it good!!! He better not just write "so actually Rhaegar was hiding in the water @ the Water Gardens in Dorne the whole time, guys!!" Oh yes & the people I think are alive: Jon (please), Sandor, Benjen (in what capacity, I don't know).. Questionable/Possible: Tyrek, Aegon (I'm not too too sure about this though) Undead: Gregor & UnCat (duh) Deadddd: Lyanna, the guards @ ToJ, Rhaegar, Oberyn, Robb, Greywind.. There are more that I can't think of right now.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Kelsey Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 If Mel is working with Varys and helped with the escape then the mystery mans voice could have been changed too. Or a mummer. Or he could be a faceless man (perhaps Syrio was a FM and took neds place)Bodies and heads looking similar IS mentioned throughout, which would serve as evidence that he could possibly be alive. As I stated earlier, people who had known Bran and Rickon all their lives just took the 2 hanging bodies as proof of their demise, people see what they want to see... Neds death could have easily been staged...I think he is alive, and hope he is alive, but unlike most people I am open to the possibility that I am wrong...I wish Ned was alive but I doubt it. I'm open to the possibility of anything but doesn't Varys say he hates magic? Why would he and Mel be working together? But that opens questions up about why he'd want dragons.. Idk! I'm just finding it hard to believe but if Ned is alive, again, I hope it's a good story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redviper9 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 EDIT: Ned was at the Trident? Where does it say that?( I'm not disputing you, I'm just curious.)Yeah, Ned was definitely there. He remembers the clash between Robert and Rhaegar when he takes Robert down to the crypts to visit Lyanna. It was also him who urged for Barristan Selmy to be spared after his injuries (Roose Bolton wanted to execute Selmy on the spot). And he took command of the rebel army on its march to King's Landing because Robert had been injured on the Trident (Tywin later recalls his frantic march from Casterly Rock to make sure he got to KL before Ned, who had already left the Trident). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightstar Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Wait, this is actually a theory here on this board?I've posted this theory before... can't remember the exact thread though...Mance wasn't sent to the Wall, at least not in the way that most people are. Mance was born beyond-the-Wall, and as a small child he was the lone survivor of a ranger-wildling clash. The rangers took him back to the Shadow Tower, where he grew up until he said his vows.Also, there are two big knots in this theory. The first is Mance's going to Winterfell when King Robert was there. If Mance really were Arthur Dayne, there are a number of people who could have recognized him: Ned Stark; Robert Baratheon; Jaime Lannister; Cersei Lannister; possibly Benjen Stark (he would have seen Dayne at the Tournament of Harrenhal); maybe even Catelyn Stark.The second knot is Ned's own recollection of the events at the Tower of Joy. Why would Ned lie in his own thoughts about him and Howland Reed being the only survivors, or his having built eight cairns to bury the dead? Remember, we're not talking about something Ned told someone, but his inner monologue. I don't see Ned as the kind of person who would internally lie to himself.The entire Mance story could definitely be a cover. People see what they want to see, it's very easy after 13 years or whatever to forget what one looks like (aging and changing appearance, hard life of living north of the wall is enough to change someone's memory.)Eight cairns... Five of Ned's comrades, two of the kings guard and Lyanna... 5+2+1=8.We know what now?Mance is very fond of the song and I believe has mentioned he's tasted the Dornishman's wife... Correct me if I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redviper9 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Eight cairns... Five of Ned's comrades, two of the kings guard and Lyanna... 5+2+1=8.Lyanna is buried in the Winterfell crypts, beside Brandon and Lord Rickard. It's one of the things that Barbrey Dustin holds against Ned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redviper9 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 The entire Mance story could definitely be a cover. People see what they want to see, it's very easy after 13 years or whatever to forget what one looks like (aging and changing appearance, hard life of living north of the wall is enough to change someone's memory.)From AGOT, chapter 39 (Eddard X):"In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life...Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man's memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three...and these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now."From ASOS, chapter 44 (Jaime VI):"He saw them too. They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders. The visors of their helms were closed, but Jaime Lannister did not need to look upon their faces to know them."Ned still has a clear memory of what Dayne looked like, despite forgetting what his own companions looked like. And Jaime doesn't even need to see Dayne's face to recognize him.Also, while enough time has passed between Robert's Rebellion and Mance's first appearance in ASOIAF for age to take its toll, how does one explain Mance's first visit to Winterfell when he was still a member of the Night's Watch? Jon and Robb were still young boys, meaning that not many years had passed. And Mance and the other Sworn Brothers he was with met with Ned. We know that Mance didn't fabricate this visit because he exactly recalls what Robb and Jon were doing and which guardsman's skin they got under that day (Fat Tom). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightstar Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Lyanna is buried in the Winterfell crypts, beside Brandon and Lord Rickard. It's one of the things that Barbrey Dustin holds against Ned.I think Dawn is in Lyanna's tomb, or some other memorabilia, not bones. Besides who's to say a cairn wasn't empty?From AGOT, chapter 39 (Eddard X):"In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life...Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man's memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three...and these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now."From ASOS, chapter 44 (Jaime VI):"He saw them too. They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders. The visors of their helms were closed, but Jaime Lannister did not need to look upon their faces to know them."Ned still has a clear memory of what Dayne looked like, despite forgetting what his own companions looked like. And Jaime doesn't even need to see Dayne's face to recognize him.Also, while enough time has passed between Robert's Rebellion and Mance's first appearance in ASOIAF for age to take its toll, how does one explain Mance's first visit to Winterfell when he was still a member of the Night's Watch? Jon and Robb were still young boys, meaning that not many years had passed. And Mance and the other Sworn Brothers he was with met with Ned. We know that Mance didn't fabricate this visit because he exactly recalls what Robb and Jon were doing and which guardsman's skin they got under that day (Fat Tom).Good research on the quotes! I know Ned would definitely recognize him, but in my theory Ned is the one who spared him and sent him to the wall. Rather than letting Dayne return to the Kingsguard to live out his remaining years like Selmy, Ned let Dayne live at the wall so he could occasionally visit, like this occasion, to see his son Jon. Why would Mance/AD remember this moment so vividly if it were a random moment, rather than if it was the first time he's laid eyes on his son? AD wouldn't return to the Kingsguard like Selmy anyway, because he's too prideful and honorable... like Ned. I feel like Ned would help Mance/Dayne make up a back story and Mance/Dayne would be smart enough to change his appearance, the way he moves ect.... like I said living north of the wall in such a rough condition after spending years in the sunny marches would change a man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Killdragon Posted October 25, 2012 Author Share Posted October 25, 2012 How could Ned be a warg without our knowledge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldora92 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 How could Ned be a warg without our knowledge?Is it impossible for him to be a warg without us knowing about it?Do we know everything about everyone?Nope, so however unlikely it is, while it is not impossible, there is still a chance it will happen...I personally do not think he is one, but am open to the possibility... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Killdragon Posted October 25, 2012 Author Share Posted October 25, 2012 Is it impossible for him to be a warg without us knowing about it?Do we know everything about everyone?Nope, so however unlikely it is, while it is not impossible, there is still a chance it will happen...I personally do not think he is one, but am open to the possibility...If Ned is a powerful enough warg to assume the identity of another person; how could that not come up once in any of his POVs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldora92 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 If Ned is a powerful enough warg to assume the identity of another person; how could that not come up once in any of his POVsA lot of things don't come up in PoVs... perhaps GRRM does not want us to know about him being a warg... perhaps he never took over another persons body, maybe he became Grey Wind and fought at his sons side during the war... perhaps he became Nymeria and is creating an army of actual wolves... just because we did not know about it in his PoVs does not mean he was not one...It is possible that all of the Starks are Wargs... how is it possible that a man who is not a Warg father 5 (6 if you think Jon is his) wargs, one of who is a greenseer? Perhaps this is why they keep to themselves in the north, southerners would more then likely slay them for it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimadick Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Rhaegar is gone and never coming back.Rhaegar Targaryen or Rhaegar Frey? The latter disappeared without a trace in "Dance". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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