do any of the current Kingsguard deserve to be there?

[therealbando]

Obviously before Pod did him in, Ser Mandon Moore certainly seemed to have the physical skills as a fighter to qualify. Obviously he certainly was lacking in other qualifications as a "true knight," but I love the Tyrion's chapter in Clash during the Battle of Blackwater where he watches Balon Swann and Mandon Moore fighting back to back. Those two truly were Kingsguardsmen in that moment.

I also thought that Mandon Moore was a very good fighter. As for current KG: Balon Swann, Jaime Lannister, Loras Tyrell

[Brienne Of Bombay]

Jaime Lannister and Loras Tyrell

I'm not so sure yet of Balon Swann though..

[western wolf]

It has to be current members, otherwise I'm picking Ser Arthur Dayne and Gerold Hightower.

[Lion of Judah]

Balon Swan and Aerys Oakheart.

[Runaway Penguin]

From the KGs who starred in the book... Jaime would be a good LC (reformed Jaime), and it is stupid to insist on LC as "one of the 7", he should stand above them (find a religious mumbo-jumbo to justify it, like that he represents the "oneness" of 7 gods), and not be required to stand guard personally. If you don't do this, KG who cannot use his sword properly is a liability.

Loras - under a strict LC, who would curb his temperament.

Swann, Moore - seem to be competent fighters, and obedient to their master, however they represent the faultiness of the KG concept.

I say and keep sayig, name Jaime as LC, Bronn as his second-in-command and have these two rebuild the house completely. Why Bronn? Well, you need some utter crook in KG to find all the possible underhand ways how to kill your charge to protect him. And turn KG into something really capable of action (and sustaining casaulties). Start a way to complete reform of Westeros into an absolutist (enlightened) monarchy, it's the only possible way forward ;)

[Baratheon3508]

I think people are being a little too harsh on Loras Tyrell! Yes he's quite arrogant, but he's still very young and has had a bit of a rough time what with Renly being murdered and whatnot. He's got a good heart and Jaime seemed to be having a pretty good shot at curbing his arrogance what with the semi educating scene with the two of them and the white book :D

[Fireball07]

People seem to forget Swann's participation in the plot to kill Trystane, which was hardly an honorable act worthy of a Kingsguard knight*. That is why I think that unless he has the mental strength, or the circumstance change, he could end up like Trant or Blount. They do as they are told, just as Swann does.

*Well he isnt allowed much choice in the matter and yet we can say that the ideal knight shouldnt act like this, but in reality does.

But the ideal Kingsguard and the ideal knight are different things.

It's bad to assassinate Trystane. But Balon Swann has to obey, no matter what. The Kingsguard more than any other must obey orders. So...in that, he is the perfect Kingsguard really. Because from the descriptions of his personality to date, it would seem that he would probably have major qualms about it.

Kinda like how Arys felt bad about hitting Sansa. He still did it, because he had to.

The likes of Arthur Dayne, Barristan, the White Bull all stood by while Aerys killed Rickard & Brandon (I can't remember if they were all present), the White Bull emphasised to Jaime that they just had to obey, not judge the king. I think they would have killed a child too...if that were their orders.

[Starfell]

I think Jaime after losing his hand and subsequent character growth deserves it.

Loras too, he's a good mixture of talent/skill, makes sense politically and seems willing to learn from Jaime. Also, never going to decide he'd rather have a wife than b e in the KG. On the other hand I'm not sure how devoted to the KG cause he is rather than simply wanting to be his sidter's bodyguard and Tyrell man in the Red Keep

Boros, clearly isn't really up to it now but maybe he was at one time and the appointment is for life

Balon, well, of all the people in the series who've plotted to murder children, he does seem like one of the more honourable ones, I'll give him that.

I don't really have much opinion of Trant, probably not deserving on the honour front but I can't remember how well he fights.

Robert Strong, 'nuff said

Osmund Kettleblack, probably not

[mcb]

Jaime Lannister, no way. Not even for his nickname (although I understand why that might put some people off), but because he had been fornicating with the queen for fifteen years. Sorry, but he's a crippled knight and a disloyal white cloak, and his ongoing pity party doesn't compensate for that.

It's bad to assassinate Trystane. But Balon Swann has to obey, no matter what. The Kingsguard more than any other must obey orders. So...in that, he is the perfect Kingsguard really. Because from the descriptions of his personality to date, it would seem that he would probably have major qualms about it.

I don't like the idea of a knight obedient no matter what. I appreciate that Ser Balon was put in a tough spot. Still, even a KG knight needs to draw a line beyond which he'll say "go fuck yourself, Your Grace".

[eggs]

Ser Arthur Dayne particularly seems to be a "true knight", with skill and honour.

he stood by while Aerys burned innocent men and helped Rhaegar take Lyanna. He's hardly a true knight.

Loras is the only worthy enough. Balon Swann is close, but he doesnt appear to be exceptional enough.

[Fireball07]

I don't like the idea of a knight obedient no matter what. I appreciate that Ser Balon was put in a tough spot. Still, even a KG knight needs to draw a line beyond which he'll say "go fuck yourself, Your Grace".

But...that would defeat the whole point of the KG. They are supposed to be the most loyal, the most obedient...they can't do that. That's oathbreaking.

It may not be nice...but that's the point. Ideally, you're serving a king who's just and fair and nice, and won't tell you to murder a child. But the world isn't ideal, I think GRRM has shown that enough.

[mcb]

But...that would defeat the whole point of the KG. They are supposed to be the most loyal, the most obedient...they can't do that. That's oathbreaking.

Mayhaps. Still, sometimes it needs to be done.

You don't get more loyal than Davos Seaworth, and yet we have this:

“There’s much I don’t understand,” Davos admitted. “I have never pretended elsewise. I know the seas and rivers, the shapes of the coasts, where the rocks and shoals lie. I know hidden coves where a boat can land unseen. And I know that a king protects his people, or he is no king at all.”

Stannis’s face darkened. “Do you mock me to my face? Must I learn a king’s duty from an onion smuggler?”

Davos knelt. “If I have offended, take my head. I’ll die as I lived, your loyal man.

Davos would do almost everything for Stannis. He'd die for him, I have no doubt about that. But he wouldn't stand idle and let Edric Storm be burned. Also: Ned, as loyal to Bob as he was, at one moment told him to shove the Hand's chain up his ass (not in those exact words).

It may not be nice...but that's the point. Ideally, you're serving a king who's just and fair and nice, and won't tell you to murder a child. But the world isn't ideal, I think GRRM has shown that enough.

That isn't an argument for blind obedience, that's an argument against it.

[MagnusPrime]

Mayhaps. Still, sometimes it needs to be done.

You don't get more loyal than Davos Seaworth, and yet we have this:

“There’s much I don’t understand,” Davos admitted. “I have never pretended elsewise. I know the seas and rivers, the shapes of the coasts, where the rocks and shoals lie. I know hidden coves where a boat can land unseen. And I know that a king protects his people, or he is no king at all.”

Stannis’s face darkened. “Do you mock me to my face? Must I learn a king’s duty from an onion smuggler?”

Davos knelt. “If I have offended, take my head. I’ll die as I lived, your loyal man.

Davos would do almost everything for Stannis. He'd die for him, I have no doubt about that. But he wouldn't stand idle and let Edric Storm be burned. Also: Ned, as loyal to Bob as he was, at one moment told him to shove the Hand's chain up his ass (not in those exact words).

That isn't an argument for blind obedience, that's an argument against it.

There is a problem with your example. the people you are using were/are the Hands of the King to their respective Kings. They could give their opinion more freely than a mere knight. A Kingsguard is a servant whose duty is to protect the king's life while a Hand is a servant who is entrusted with ensuring that the realm the king rules is taken care of. What Ned and Davos did could be seen as taking care of the realm's well being by making sure the king was not going down the wrong path.

[Fireball07]

There is a problem with your example. the people you are using were/are the Hands of the King to their respective Kings. They could give their opinion more freely than a mere knight. A Kingsguard is a servant whose duty is to protect the king's life while a Hand is a servant who is entrusted with ensuring that the realm the king rules is taken care of. What Ned and Davos did could be seen as taking care of the realm's well being by making sure the king was not going down the wrong path.

This, pretty much.

Different roles, different responsibilities. The Hand is supposed to serve the king, but also help rule the realm as best he can, he can give advice....he can resign as Ned did.

A Kingsguard cannot resign. If they refuse to obey, they die.

[otherbeef]

true knights and kingsguard vows do not mix. a true knight would defend the innocent against his king, but a kingsguard member would not. In that sense guys like Trant and Blount are perfect kingsguard members, they do what they are told no questions asked.

[mcb]

A Kingsguard cannot resign. If they refuse to obey, they die.

Those were Davos' alternatives as well. He didn't say "if I'm wrong, fire me", but "if I'm wrong, you can kill me". And that outcome was a very real possibility, considering what happened to his predecessor.

I'm aware of vastly different responsibilities of a prime minister and a bodyguard. Still, I stand by my point: blind obedience no matter what isn't a quality. If a king is aware of the fact that the most loyal and dedicated among his men still have their conscience, it would only do him good.

[MagnusPrime]

Those were Davos' alternatives as well. He didn't say "if I'm wrong, fire me", but "if I'm wrong, you can kill me". And that outcome was a very real possibility, considering what happened to his predecessor.

I'm aware of vastly different responsibilities of a prime minister and a bodyguard. Still, I stand by my point: blind obedience no matter what isn't a quality. If a king is aware of the fact that the most loyal and dedicated among his men still have their conscience, it would only do him good.

True, but the previous one had been trying to betray Stannis' cause, Davos was only trying to prevent the loss of an innocent boy's life. that is not really capital treason. he only said that because he feared that stannis may be to far in Melisandre's thrall.

I agree that A king on the Iron Throne knowing that his Kingsguard still had a conscience would probably prevent them from ordering them to commit acts which would go against their moral code. but in the case of those like Maegor or Aerys who where not swayed by such things as conscience they would still be forced to commit those actions or protest and lose their lives. however, they should never raise their swords against the king.

Even Jaime knows that he should not have killed Aerys, stopping the plot to burn KL is one thing but killing Aerys is another. And I am of the camp that Believes that Ned wanted Aerys tried before the Godswood in Winterfell and executed by Ice.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

_{Current Jaimes honor plus old Jaimes ability would have been pretty much perfect. I don't really like Loras as a character but its hard to deny he has the skill. Balon Swann is cool, and I think Oakheart was a good guy and a decent enough knight who ultimately was human at the end of the day. The rest of them...bleh.}

[Fireball07]

true knights and kingsguard vows do not mix. a true knight would defend the innocent against his king, but a kingsguard member would not. In that sense guys like Trant and Blount are perfect kingsguard members, they do what they are told no questions asked.

Well I wouldn't go that far.

Ideally, you'd want very good fighters too. And be able to lead men, KG were often put in charge of other soldiers. And they have to have courage. It's one thing to obey no matter what.....but you have to be able to that under pressure. Your life has to be nothing compared to that of your kings.

Blount's handing over of Tommen to Bywater's men makes him one of the worst KG members, he should have died.protecting him. I imagine Osmund Kettleblack wouldn't care more about his king than himself either.

[Lux in Tenebris]

People do love to forget that Jaimie pushed a 7 year old boy out the window after he was breaking his KG vows with an incestous relationship with the Queen. He also broke the most important vow of the KG -- protect the King. Not only did he not protect the King, he killed him!

And people complain about Loras' temperament? Jaimie's actions are worse than everyone on the KG currently, at least Blount and Trant were directly acting on orders from the King.

Question: We talk about Barristan's honor, but would he beat Sansa if directly ordered by King Joffrey? He takes his KG vows extremely seriously...