Crowbait Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I just started the re-read on GoT and I can't believe how much I missed the first go-round. I have a question that most readers would think me really dumb but I'm hoping I won't get beat up too much.. Here goes.Since the Dothraki are all about the land (the Dothraki Sea) and their horses, why would Viserys even think that they would cross the Narrow Sea (or any body of water) to fight his war in Westeros? Was his mis-lead to believe that by Illyrio? Maybe Illyrio had a bigger plan for Dany in the end and not Viserys and he was just sort of stringing him along? The Dothraki so feared boats and being on the water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Flashheart Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 In both the show and books when Arya overhears llyrio and Varys talking and hears "the dothraki wont invade until there omens favor war" I dont think they intended to have Viserys end up dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowbait Posted January 25, 2013 Author Share Posted January 25, 2013 In both the show and books when Arya overhears llyrio and Varys talking and hears "the dothraki wont invade until there omens favor war" I dont think they intended to have Viserys end up dead.Thank you! I'm going back to that chapter and re-re-read it again! You're among those really smart ones on this site - like Lummel.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crankypants Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Since we find out that Jorah and Varys were in cahoots, I don't think Varys nor Ilyrio cared much at all about Viserys much at all. They may not have wanted him dead, but I don't think their plans were ever with him, otherwise Jorah would have been more supportive. I'm sure as he grew, Viserys was put aside, hoping Dany would be the one to cast the Iron Throne's eye off of the possibility of Aegon, who is the real ace in the hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willi-E-Lannister Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 They would attack, it would just be akward for them. They would only be yet another ruler in the wo5k. They would be the perfect set up for aegon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSouthEastWesteros Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 As soon as Viserys handed Dany over to Drogo, he was doomed. Dany was their pawn. Wait fr an attack on her life/unborn son and The Screamers would cross the Narrow Sea for vengeance, and Aegon would rise as a hero among the pillage and rape as a long thought dead Targ, with Dany to help him claim his throne.Except they underestimated Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinwesteros Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Wish I had access to my AGOT book now, but I'm remembering a time when Viserys is talking to Ilyrio prior to Dany's wedding and making some sort of grandiose statement about 'making' Drogo do something or other. IIRC, Ilyrio offered a dry remark which went completely over Viserys' head, but I think it is that far back that I got the sense (on re-read, not initially) that Ilyrio knew just what would happen to Viserys as a result of his arrogance and his ignorance in vastly underestimating Khal Drogo. It seems to me that even at that point it is really Dany that Ilyrio [and Varys] want restored to the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLE Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 I think Varys and Illyrio also misunderstand Drogo. Because there is no way he could have got his army, horses and all, across the sea, to be anything more than a distraction in the War of Five Kings. Getting enough ships to ship a hundred thousand Dothraki *and* a hundred thousand horses? Not going to happen. At best he's going to get a few thousand... none of whom have ever fought in winter before, or against castles. They'd have been slaughtered by the first competent army they faced, be it that of Tywin, Robb or Stannis. And... Dothraki getting past the Neck, through the swamps or along the Causeway, and into the North? Not gonna happen. Besides, all those men and all those horses have to eat. Dothraki armies can only survive because of the vastness of their plains, and even then they have to pretty much fight each other for resources when not pillaging other cities.I think Varys and Illyrio are actually far less omnipotent or omnicognizant than many would give them credit for. Each is capable of adapting plans to unforeseen events and pretending they wanted it that way in the first place, but there's no way a Dothraki invasion could have succeeded, with or without the Golden Company... Unless, that is, they wanted a Dothraki invasion led by Drogo and Dany to *fail*, Viserys and Dany to die, to get rid of the last Targaryen pretension standing in the way of Puppet Aegon. But if that's what they wanted, then it's not what the Golden Company seem to have expected.They're a pair of puppet masters - like Littlefinger - each of whom is very quick to claim credit when things go right for their plans, and alter their plans after a setback. In fact you could say that Varys, Illyrio and Littlefinger are the true "players" in the game of thrones for King's Landing - except that some pieces have a mind of their own, some areas have just been left to fester (in the North, where Bolton, Stannis, Manderly, Jon Snow and a few others could be considered "players", neither Varys, Illyrio or Littlefinger seems to care what happens. And I have a suspicion that all their plans will be upset by what comes down from the north.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedtheWarrior Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 In fact you could say that Varys, Illyrio and Littlefinger are the true "players" in the game of thrones for King's Landing - I completely agree, in a way, I almost think of Varys and Littlefinger as the "main characters" if we were to look at it as a traditional story with a good versus evil spin, not that Varys is a brilliant representation of good... evil vs. slightly less evil? Different kind of evil?I also agree that the main power of Varys and Illyrio is not just their seeming omniscience, but also they're ability to adapt when things go an unexpected way. They're sensible, they know they can't predict the future................ probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSouthEastWesteros Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 I think Varys and Illyrio also misunderstand Drogo. Because there is no way he could have got his army, horses and all, across the sea, to be anything more than a distraction in the War of Five Kings. Getting enough ships to ship a hundred thousand Dothraki *and* a hundred thousand horses? Not going to happen. At best he's going to get a few thousand... none of whom have ever fought in winter before, or against castles. They'd have been slaughtered by the first competent army they faced, be it that of Tywin, Robb or Stannis. And... Dothraki getting past the Neck, through the swamps or along the Causeway, and into the North? Not gonna happen. Besides, all those men and all those horses have to eat. Dothraki armies can only survive because of the vastness of their plains, and even then they have to pretty much fight each other for resources when not pillaging other cities.I think Varys and Illyrio are actually far less omnipotent or omnicognizant than many would give them credit for. Each is capable of adapting plans to unforeseen events and pretending they wanted it that way in the first place, but there's no way a Dothraki invasion could have succeeded, with or without the Golden Company... Unless, that is, they wanted a Dothraki invasion led by Drogo and Dany to *fail*, Viserys and Dany to die, to get rid of the last Targaryen pretension standing in the way of Puppet Aegon. But if that's what they wanted, then it's not what the Golden Company seem to have expected.They're a pair of puppet masters - like Littlefinger - each of whom is very quick to claim credit when things go right for their plans, and alter their plans after a setback. In fact you could say that Varys, Illyrio and Littlefinger are the true "players" in the game of thrones for King's Landing - except that some pieces have a mind of their own, some areas have just been left to fester (in the North, where Bolton, Stannis, Manderly, Jon Snow and a few others could be considered "players", neither Varys, Illyrio or Littlefinger seems to care what happens. And I have a suspicion that all their plans will be upset by what comes down from the north.)I feel very stupid. Winter + Dothraki never occurred to me! :agree: :agree: :agree: To the bolded, my personal opinion too. Except I think Varys may be (crackpot) a tad supernatural. Little Birds = Crows/Ravens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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