Best military commanders in A Song of Ice and Fire

[Daario's*before*Snows]

Lol, Stannis lost on the Blackwater, there is no excuse for it. All that passage says is that Stannis had a lot of suprises so its not his fault? Wtf Stannis LOST Blackwater he got his ass kicked. Since when to you get to claim victory just because surprises happen?

Mance won the battle of the Wall in that case, Stannis came out of nowhere with troops so its not the Mance fault! Mance won the Wall, Stannis lost.

[Szar]

There you have it. He was winning. Let this be the end of all the ridiculous "he lost on Blackwater so he's bad commander huehuehue" logic.

What? That is utterly ridiculous.

HE LOST.

It doesn't matter how close he came: he fell short of the victory. He didn't win.

He failed to notice the GREATEST ARMY IN THE SEVEN KINGDOMS bearing down on him! Failing to properly scout is a BASIC tactical blunder.

The Battle for the Blackwater is his greatest failure, not something indicating how "great" a commander he is.

And that's before even LOOKING at what happened to his entire goddamn fleet.

[W.Kane]

I'm refering to those posts, unless I've missed something. All we know is that he was hammered by Tyrion and Tywin when he should have won, he took a disorganised force by surprise and routed it, he won a siege years ago and he refused to surrender a castle and was relieved. Now Martin may make him into a great general, but he hasn't done so until now. His decision to attack the Wildings was great politics, but that is not generalship.

LOL (big one) , no one in the seven kingdoms history could have won that war. Stannis was out numbered at least 4 to 1 and he was fighting an enemy that had the advantage of castle (one man up on the walls of a castle worth multiple men down the walls) . the fact that he is still alive is somehow a miracle.

yes, he took a disorganized force that outnumbered him 20 to 1 !!! and had giants and mammoths.

he held the Storms end for a year and occupied mace Tyrell forces there, so the rebellions could won the Trident.

he defeated the ironborns in their own game , he crushed their fleet so the royalists could land on the islands and crush Balon.

he defeated ironborn on great Wyk.

he took dragonstone from Targaryens .

he took deepwood motte from ironborns .

he survived for five books although all odds were against him. he always was the underdog yet he is still alive.

yeah...no record it seems! /s

I think that a lot of people are taking into the book a set of genre prejudices, which mean they are adding massive subtexts into the story that aren't there. Stannis isn't goodlooking and flash (but is determined and steady), he has been treated shabbily by his family, and does not get the respect he deserves. Therefore he must be hyper-competent, because that's the way it is in books. Ned is a honourable man who is crap at politics but a good father. So he must be a rock hard fighter and a great general, despite the fact we only ever see him get beat in a fight and we have no evidence he has ever commmanded an army.

but Stannis is hyper competent , I just proved it. he has the best military records on land and sea. he has made best out of worst .

we should wait and see how he will do in the bottle of ice.

[str8 outta Old Town]

Just wrote a massive answer to this then lost it aaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrggggggggggghhhhhhhhh

[str8 outta Old Town]

ok, I'll try the shorter version

hhe defeated ironborn on great Wyk.

he took dragonstone from Targaryens .

he took deepwood motte from ironborns .

All these are minor actions with massive odds in his favour. Police actions.

the fact that he is still alive is somehow a miracle.

yes, he took a disorganized force that outnumbered him 20 to 1 !!! and had giants and mammoths.

Attacked refugee army already engaged facing the wrong direction, after they had been attacking a massive wall made of ice for days. Very well done, but not a sign of genius.

he held the Storms end for a year and occupied mace Tyrell forces there, so the rebellions could won the Trident.

he defeated the ironborns in their own game , he crushed their fleet so the royalists could land on the islands and crush Balon.

In terms of sea battles, he has one massive victory and one major act of incompetence, where he had his fleet burnt. Storm's End, his strategy would be 'sit there'. Not bad going, but not Alexander the great.

At Kings Landing, he chanced his arm recklessly and failed.

To be honest, you could make an equally strong (and false) case for Tywin being the greatest general ever.

[western wolf]

Well first of all, there is no such thing as "plate mail" do you mean plate armor? I would expect someone who has worn it to actually know what its called, but that's neither here nor there. Second, renly did not have all the men of the reach with him at se when he attacked Stannis. He only had his vanguard of heavy cavalry. The remainder of the force (his foot) was at bitterbridge with mace tyrell. It is true that reach houses went with Stannis, whether you chose to believe it or not. Its in the books, reread them.

Yeah, we called it plate mail. If the best argument you can give that I never wore something I really did wear (which I'll bet you never have), then that isn't even an argument; that's semantics. If it makes you feel smart to say that, fine, but you sir, are not a good debater.

As for the houses going with Stannis, I again would question Tyrell heavy horse (a valuable medieval unit) going over to Stannis when Loras Tyrell was with them and probably telling them to follow him. Explain that one to me, but without all the condescension.

As for the greyjoys fighting the whole realm, that's not true. The only fleet Stannis had was the royal fleet and paxter redwynes fleet. Those two together were equal in numbers to the iron fleet. The battle was even. With a slight advantage to the ironborn who are experienced sailors. If Stannis would have lost that battle roberts ability to get to the iron islands would have been crippled, without ships he would not be able to land any troops on the islands.

Uh, no. The battle was not even.

As I've been saying the Iron islands are TINY compared to the mainland, even compared to other islands like bear island and the sisters. they wouldn't have had anywhere NEAR the number of men necessary to take on the combined might of the mainland fleet and armies. In the series, even Theon admits how outnumbered they were, and given the size and population estimates of the mainland, that is a GROSS UNDERESTIMATION, because the mainland probably has a population nearing a million.

Further, the Ironmen used viking type longships, while the Kings Fleet used much larger warships (their description reminds me of Galleons). The size difference would have been a vessel which could carry dozens, perhaps a hundred, against vessels carrying hundreds. That was a battle that they would have found very difficult to win, sailing skills notwithstanding.

While it is true that Stannis apparently did set a trap for that (which succeeded), that only saved the Kings Fleet some trouble. They would have won on the water with numbers, and they certainly would have won once they reached land. In fact, they did. The islanders were fucked the moment Balon declared himself king, regardless of Stanins' trap.

As for the wildings. yes he had the element of surprise. But who cares? that's what a good general does, he uses things like the element of surprise to beat overwhelming odds. The only reason robb stark won at the whispering wood was the element of surprise, same for his battle at oxcross. Do you bitch about those battles? Since for some reason using the element of surprise doesn't make you a good general? This has to be among the most ignorant things I have read on this board.

Thank you for proving my point. Surprise is an element of battle, not a strategy. Plenty of armies with the element of surprise have lost over the centuries. Its how you use it. Stannis' strategy simply seems to have been "charge." He may have used magic to get rid of the wildling scouts, but that was the extent of his strategizing. Lucky for the wall, that's all you need to do when you have better armor, cavalry, and are facing a disorganized host with women and children.

You can call that whatever you want, but that's not a brilliant strategy. It's better than the one he used at Blackwater bay, but not by much.

As for Robb Stark, he took Riverrun with a very novel strategy, one that was good enough to catch a seiging army (one that was apparently doing all the right things), and the book discusses that, so, yeah, I do rate him a better commander than Stannis. He at least did something original.

Then here we go again, criticizing the siege of SE without having ANY knowledge at all of medival warfare(plate mail, LOL) No sir, not ANYONE could have done that. Do you have any idea what it takes to keep discipline in starving men? All it takes is one guy to open the gates and its game over. He held on till the bitter end. He is tenacious, he wont ever give up and that makes him dangerous.

I actually do know a little bit about medieval warfare, my using terms you are apparently unfamiliar with (or consider unworthy) notwithstanding. Castles were basically built as cheap central locations which would enable local lords to patrol and hold areas of land much larger than itself. Most of the time they would kill anyone who tried to open the gates, if for no other reason than because the guys coming in would SLAUGHTER them. For someone who supposedly knows a lot about medieval warfare, its surprising that THAT is your argument. I mean I might not know much about it, but I just picked your argument apart in five minutes.

As for Stannis holding on...yeah, he did, which was his job. Of course he did, because if he surrendered he would have been killed either by the Mad King or perhaps Robert for surrendering. Anyone could have done that, and would have made the same decision, whether or not they succeeded, if they had any kind of survival instinct.

That is an accomplishment, yes, but it doesn't make him a good battle commander.

This is adorable, we can pick and chose advantages that Stannis has, and then complain about those advantages to make his victories seem like less. By this logic NO ONE in existence is a good general. Oh tywin beat bolton only because he had superior numbers and men, that's no victory. Robb only beat jaime because he had the element of surprise that doesn't make him special. A good general uses the advantages he has to win. And there is more to being a general then Standing in pitched battles(witch were incredibly rare, as the were too risky) against overwhelming odds and winning.

I have said nothing about Robb because we were discussing Stannis, but if you must know, I have no problems with Robb. In fact, I think he's a much better commander than Stannis, if only because he's an original thinker.

And there you go again using the word blunder. Im not sure you know what it means entirely. The only "blunder" he has ever made is appointing florent as head of his navy. And that's not the big mistake you make it out to be. A mistake to be sure, but not a big deal.

I'm pretty sure I know what 'blunder' means in a strategic war campaign setting. And as I suspected, we were using the same meaning. But you apparently have a VERY high bar for mistakes, if you can't see thathe made one by killing his brother and alienating more than half of his brothers host. When he could have easily done that after the war, without nearly as much competition for the throne.

So again, despite the fact that you don't want to accept it, he was a horrible battle commander, and made fantastic blunders. Oh, sorry, mistakes.

[Dreadwolf]

GRRM failed badly if he set out to make me personally like Stannis. He aint my damn hero. Nothing even close

I guess his setting there [if at all] was to make different people like and dislike different sets of characters.

And it looks like he succeeded.

[TalalOfDorne]

Stannis and Robb, maybe Randyll Tarly.

[W.Kane]

All these are minor actions with massive odds in his favour. Police actions.

not that massive , but yes he had greater number and he won. still victory.

Attacked refugee army already engaged facing the wrong direction, after they had been attacking a massive wall made of ice for days. Very well done, but not a sign of genius.

they still had 20 times his number + giants, the keys to his victory were , great timing and capturing enemy commanders so crushing their self confidence .

that was impressive IMO.

In terms of sea battles, he has one massive victory and one major act of incompetence, where he had his fleet burnt. Storm's End, his strategy would be 'sit there'. Not bad going, but not Alexander the great.

the wildfire incident is not considered a sea battle , and that punk Florent was responsible. Stannis can be blamed because he put Florent in charge.

Storms End was a very great victory , keeping discipline in a starving army for a year and refusing to surrender show his other great capabilities. his goal was holding SE and he achieved it . I don't think anyone other than him would be able to do that. because that required extreme sense of duty and rigidness.

At Kings Landing, he chanced his arm recklessly and failed.

the author wanted him to fail: that's why every freaking bad things happened against him.

stannis only mistake was putting Florent in charge of fleet.

weather delayed them. (bad luck)

tyrion clan men killed his scouts. (I call it bad luck , how could he knew they were murdered)

Rob had to retreat , Tywin got freed to march on KL. (bad luck)

the Tyrells (aka the whores of Westeros) allied with their former enemy . (bad luck) this one change the outcome of that battle .

without tyrell/lanister alliance , Stannis would have won.

To be honest, you could make an equally strong (and false) case for Tywin being the greatest general ever.

Twyin always had the greater number in his battles and he lost multiple times to Robb . he is politically great but not comparable to Stannis in Military capability.

[Rolex Baratheon]

Good Lord.

The bloody Wiki says Stannis was at the cusp of victory and he WAS. Being on the cusp of victory and then losing does not equate to having your ass kicked. Daario your posts are going beyond the level of ridiculousness and I'm seriously beginning to doubt whether you're serious or just trolling.

"He LOST" is not a reason for Gods sake, he was hit with something he barely knew existed in KL and even then he was winning until a stroke of luck for the Lannisters. What the hell is so difficult to understand here??

I make a long post in which I analyse the skills of Tywin, Stannis and Robb and get this nonsense in reply.

What? That is utterly ridiculous.

HE LOST.

It doesn't matter how close he came: he fell short of the victory. He didn't win.

He failed to notice the GREATEST ARMY IN THE SEVEN KINGDOMS bearing down on him! Failing to properly scout is a BASIC tactical blunder.

The Battle for the Blackwater is his greatest failure, not something indicating how "great" a commander he is.

And that's before even LOOKING at what happened to his entire goddamn fleet.

Wtf?

Stannis sent scouts which were then killed by wildlings. Don't say he was ignorant to the possibility of a last minute alliance... Oh wait, everyone would be!

[Daario's*before*Snows]

Good Lord.

The bloody Wiki says Stannis was at the cusp of victory and he WAS. Being on the cusp of victory and then losing does not equate to having your ass kicked. Daario your posts are going beyond the level of ridiculousness and I'm seriously beginning to doubt whether you're serious or just trolling.

"He LOST" is not a reason for Gods sake, he was hit with something he barely knew existed in KL and even then he was winning until a stroke of luck for the Lannisters. What the hell is so difficult to understand here??

I make a long post in which I analyse the skills of Tywin, Stannis and Robb and get this nonsense in reply.

Wtf?

Stannis sent scouts which were then killed by wildlings. Don't say he was ignorant to the possibility of a last minute alliance... Oh wait, everyone would be!

I think your posts are ridiculous when you want to give flimsy statement like "he was on the cusp of victory" as proof of any victory.

The amount of equipment and men Stannis lost just to turn around and leave does equate getting your ass kicked to me.

[Jon Wolfwalker]

Again.....Aegon the Conqueror.

Did anyone else conquer most of Westeros? Not placate it but conquer it?

[Rolex Baratheon]

I think your posts are ridiculous when you want to give flimsy statement like "he was on the cusp of victory" as proof of any victory.

The amount of equipment and men Stannis lost just to turn around and leave does equate getting your ass kicked to me.

I think your posts are ridiculous when you want to give flimsy statement like "he was on the cusp of victory" as proof of any victory.

The amount of equipment and men Stannis lost just to turn around and leave does equate getting your ass kicked to me.

Replying to you is getting more and more useless.

The Wiki said he was on the cusp of victory, the description of the battle said he was on the cusp of victory, and then additional army under Tywin came to save the day.

And LOL. Stannis got away alive, implying his turn around and leave was pretty damn good. In fact Ser Rolland, the Bastard of Nightsong, earned quite a few points for commanding that action and making sure Stannis wasn't killed.

Its like you're reading a different series. You even thought Dany was a commander. Nuff' said :rofl: