Could Missandei actually be the Harpy?

[Walder Waters]

I think what people are missing is that if Missendei is the harpy she not doing it to betray Dany but to bait her into an all out battle with the Meeranese nobility who in all likelihood would betray Dany if it didn't mean certain death. I'm not really sold on it, but I'm equally not sold on it being the Green Grace. I think either there is no "Harpy" and the sons are acting more or less autonomously or its the most obvious possibilities of Hizdahr zo Loraq or Reznak mo Reznak.

But then there would be more pluralism to the different splitter groups and not all of them would have stopped simultaniously. But they did... so it seems to me that there is a strict hierarchic structure with one person in supreme command.

[Harle The Handsome]

Some people think the Green Grace can't be the Harpy because that's too obvious but the story is set up to make us believe Hizdahr is the Harpy. Without reading these forums it's my guess that a majority of readers wouldn't have come to the conclusion that the Green Grace is the Harpy. Yet when you read between the lines people are saying "she can't be the harpy because it's too obvious" but this makes no sense because it is not obvious at all except to those who read these forums.

I don't think the Green Grace is the most obvious choice as the Harpy, but is the most likely. Hizdahr is the one casual readers will infer to be the Harpy, but he is too much out in the open. The Harpy is a puppetmaster, pulling the strings. The Harpy is an older, wiser, more subtle person. The Green Grace best fits that description of all the characters in Mereen.

[danm_999]

I have no idea why so many people are certain that the Green Grace is the Harpy. It is a real possibility, but not a particularly strong one, and it doesn't fit all that well with her straightforward, helpful nature.

This is precisely why she shouldn't be trusted. Who else acts helpful and nice and straightforward?

Littlefinger was no threat to anyone. A clever, smiling, genial man, everyone’s friend, always able to find whatever gold the king or his Hand required, and yet of such undistinguished birth, one step up from a hedge knight, he was not a man to fear.

Tyrion did not trust Varys, though there was no denying his value. He knew things, beyond a doubt. “Why are you so helpful, my lord Varys?” he asked, studying the man’s soft hands, the bald powdered face, the slimy little smile.

“You are the Hand. I serve the realm, the king, and you.”

“As you served Jon Arryn and Eddard Stark?”

“I served Lord Arryn and Lord Stark as best I could. I was saddened and horrified by their most untimely deaths.

Davos did not deny it. “If it please my lord, I would request a privy audience.”

It did not please the lord. “I keep no secrets from my kin, nor from my leal lords and knights, good friends all.”

“My lord,” said Davos, “I would not want my words to be heard by His Grace’s enemies … or by your lordship’s.”

“Stannis may have enemies in this hall. I do not.”

“Not even the men who slew your son?” Davos pointed. “These Freys were amongst his hosts at the Red Wedding.”

Another Frey spoke up. “Lord Wyman, if I may?”

Wyman Manderly gave him a nod. “Rhaegar. We are always pleased to hear your noble counsel.”

“My lord!” Catelyn had almost forgotten. “Some food would be most welcome. We have ridden many leagues in the rain.”

Walder Frey’s mouth moved in and out. “Food, heh. A loaf of bread, a bite of cheese, mayhaps a sausage.”

“Some wine to wash it down,” Robb said. “And salt.”

“Bread and salt. Heh. Of course, of course.” The old man clapped his hands together, and servants came into the hall, bearing flagons of wine and trays of bread, cheese, and butter. Lord Walder took a cup of red himself, and raised it high with a spotted hand. “My guests,” he said. “My honored guests. Be welcome beneath my roof, and at my table.”

“We thank you for your hospitality, my lord,” Robb replied. Edmure echoed him, along with the Greatjon, Ser Marq Piper, and the others.

They drank his wine and ate his bread and butter. Catelyn tasted the wine and nibbled at some bread, and felt much the better for it. Now we should be safe, she thought.

Knowing how petty the old man could be, she had expected their rooms to be bleak and cheerless. But the Freys had made more than ample provision for them, it seemed. The bridal chamber was large and richly appointed, dominated by a great featherbed with corner posts carved in the likeness of castle towers. Its draperies were Tully red and blue, a nice courtesy. Sweet-smelling carpets covered a plank floor, and a tall shuttered window opened to the south. Catelyn’s own room was smaller, but handsomely furnished and comfortable, with a fire burning in the hearth. Lame Lothar assured them that Robb would have an entire suite, as befit a king. “If there is anything you require, you need only tell one of the guards.” He bowed and withdrew, limping heavily as he made his way down the curving steps.

Do not refuse my friendship, Jon. I have seen you in the storm, hard-pressed, with enemies on every side. You have so many enemies. Shall I tell you their names?”

“I know their names.”

“Do not be so certain.” The ruby at Melisandre’s throat gleamed red. “It is not the foes who curse you to your face that you must fear, but those who smile when you are looking and sharpen their knives when you turn your back.

When someone is being nice and helpful in the game of thrones, and they have no reason to be, it's usually because they're about to screw you over big time.

[danm_999]

I think what people are missing is that if Missendei is the harpy she not doing it to betray Dany but to bait her into an all out battle with the Meeranese nobility who in all likelihood would betray Dany if it didn't mean certain death. I'm not really sold on it, but I'm equally not sold on it being the Green Grace. I think either there is no "Harpy" and the sons are acting more or less autonomously or its the most obvious possibilities of Hizdahr zo Loraq or Reznak mo Reznak.

There has to be a singular commander, elsewise Hizdahr's 90 day peace promise falls apart. The Shavepate is really illogical a candidate, since he and Hizdahr do not get along, so if he was the Harpy, he could have sabotaged Hizdahr's 90 day peace at any point.

[MotherAnduin]

snip

I would like to add something in the same vein. When a character talks sweetly but has a hidden agenda, that sometimes eats honey and then wipes it from their lips. Littlefinger and Lysa on their wedding day.

Petyr yanked on the other boot. "I've had about as much home as I can stomach. We'll leave for the Eyrie this afternoon." He kissed his lady wife and licked a smear of honey off her lips, then headed down the steps.

Green Grace after speaking with Dany about her marriage to Hizdar.

The old woman dabbed a smear of honey off her lips, gave Qezza and Grazhar each a parting kiss upon the brow, and fastened her silken veil across her face. "I shall return to the Temple of the Graces and pray for the gods to show my queen the course of wisdom."

[danm_999]

I would like to add something in the same vein. When a character talks sweetly but has a hidden agenda, that sometimes eats honey and then wipes it from their lips. Littlefinger and Lysa on their wedding day.

Green Grace after speaking with Dany about her marriage to Hizdar.

That's a great catch, seems like a play on the idiom of having a honey tongue and a heart of gall.

[kephv]

The Shavepate is really illogical a candidate, since he and Hizdahr do not get along, so if he was the Harpy, he could have sabotaged Hizdahr's 90 day peace at any point.

Same thing could be said of the Green Grace, but why sabatoge it? That would've been too obvious, and really it only makes Harzoo look more likely -- more like he orchestrated it. And considering how things ultimately played out with Barristan, it shows he's a master at pulling people's strings. I'd wager the Shavepate is easily the most logical candidate of the bunch. The Green Grace doesn't really fit the bill, since most likely there's going to be no way the high priestess could've so quickly organized a bloody resistance to Dany.

The Shavepate more fits the bill, all the way down to his brazen beasts (recall the great Harpy in Meereen and Astapoor is made from Bronze) and his extrememly brutal nature -- not to mention he was the first one who came hobbling to Dany pledging his allegiance. Just a very shady guy.

[danm_999]

Same thing could be said of the Green Grace, but why sabatoge it?

In the Shavepate's case?

Because the Shavepate doesn't like Hizdahr, and the dislike seems to be mutual. When Hizdahr becomes King, he dismisses the Shavepate, gives him an empty title, and assigns command of the Brazen Beasts to one of his cousins.

But the Green Grace likes Hizdahr, thinks he comes from the 'right' family, and is the one who suggests the match to Daenerys. She's the puppetmaster, and Hizdahr is the puppet.

That would've been too obvious, and really it only makes Harzoo look more likely -- more like he orchestrated it. And considering how things ultimately played out with Barristan, it shows he's a master at pulling people's strings.

Well...not really. If the Shavepate wanted to get rid of Hizdahr as king, why ever let him become king by keeping the Sons of the Harpy under wraps for 90 days? It's just a needless and rather dangerous move.

I'd wager the Shavepate is easily the most logical candidate of the bunch. The Green Grace doesn't really fit the bill, since most likely there's going to be no way the high priestess could've so quickly organized a bloody resistance to Dany.

On the contrary. Remember the Green Grace is extremely connected to most major noble families in Meereen. Remember that Daenerys largely leaves the activity of the Meereenese religion alone and without scrutiny. Remember Daenerys is puzzled that wounded Sons of the Harpies aren't ever turning up (because the Blue Graces are healing them and keeping it quiet!). Remember Daenerys tells the Green Grace about how she could never hurt her child hostages and lo and behold, the nightly killings start again.

The Shavepate more fits the bill, all the way down to his brazen beasts (recall the great Harpy in Meereen and Astapoor is made from Bronze)

Recall Harpies are female.

Also, brass, the material the Brazen Beasts wear, is an alloy of copper and zinc, not Bronze, which is copper and tin.

and his extrememly brutal nature -- not to mention he was the first one who came hobbling to Dany pledging his allegiance. Just a very shady guy.

No doubt, but the Harpy he ain't.

[kephv]

In the Shavepate's case?

Because the Shavepate doesn't like Hizdahr, and the dislike seems to be mutual. When Hizdahr becomes King, he dismisses the Shavepate, gives him an empty title, and assigns command of the Brazen Beasts to one of his cousins.

But the Green Grace likes Hizdahr, thinks he comes from the 'right' family, and is the one who suggests the match to Daenerys. She's the puppetmaster, and Hizdahr is the puppet.

Again, it would be too obvious if he sabatoged it. Why sabatoge something when the blame could easily fall on him? By not doing anything, he makes him seem very guilty -- as Barristan believes. Of course, Dany doesn't think that, but the Shavepate obviously miscalculated. It's okay though because a much better opportunity presented itself later.

Well...not really. If the Shavepate wanted to get rid of Hizdahr as king, why ever let him become king by keeping the Sons of the Harpy under wraps for 90 days? It's just a needless and rather dangerous move.

It would've been annoying but I'm sure it didn't trouble him much. He had the underground parts of the city completely under his control and the pyramid because of the beasts. And in the end, he proved a pretty easy annoyance to be dealt with -- though I'm sure he didn't anticipate Belwas eating the poison but then Ser Barristan came along so it didn't matter.

On the contrary. Remember the Green Grace is extremely connected to most major noble families in Meereen. Remember that Daenerys largely leaves the activity of the Meereenese religion alone and without scrutiny. Remember Daenerys is puzzled that wounded Sons of the Harpies aren't ever turning up (because the Blue Graces are healing them and keeping it quiet!). Remember Daenerys tells the Green Grace about how she could never hurt her child hostages and lo and behold, the nightly killings start again.

Right, but why would they need a priestess to organize murderous mobs to ravage the streets? Surely any one of the major families could've accomplished that. And it seems like the work of someone much shadier and with darker connections. Also, Dany pretty much leaves Shavepate alone with the majority of the tasks -- questioning victims of the Harpy and patrolling the city -- so he's just as easily under the radar as well. About the nightly killings, the Shavepate knows of such relectance as well.

Recall Harpies are female.

I agree. It's too obvious.

Also, brass, the material the Brazen Beasts wear, is an alloy of copper and zinc, not Bronze, which is copper and tin.

Looks like I had the names confused.

No doubt, but the Harpy he ain't.

You've fallen into the Shavepate's trap like everyone else. See how sly he is?

[danm_999]

Again, it would be too obvious if he sabatoged it. Why sabatoge something when the blame could easily fall on him?

How is it too obvious? Nobody knows he's connected to the Sons of the Harpy and the Sons of the Harpy are killing the Shavepate's men. If the killing didn't stop, all it does is discredit Hizdahr, it doesn't incriminate Skahaz in any way, shape or form.

Right, but why would they need a priestess to organize murderous mobs to ravage the streets? Surely any one of the major families could've accomplished that.

Because the Green Grace is a respected cultural leader who has the ability to move between Daenerys court and the Meereenese nobility with impunity. The major families are looked upon with suspicion and mistrust, and their children are all hostages, but the Green Grace is lauded as a voice of peace who serves Meereen. Kind of like another eunuch character we know who talks a big game about the common good.

The Green Grace, because of her religious status, she is under virtually no scrutiny or surveillance, and because she runs the closest thing Meereen has to a hospital, she can control any information about wounded Harpies she doesn't want Daenerys to have.

And it seems like the work of someone much shadier and with darker connections.

And if you were doing shady and dark things, like say, Littlefinger, what face would you want to present to the world?

Also, Dany pretty much leaves Shavepate alone with the majority of the tasks -- questioning victims of the Harpy and patrolling the city -- so he's just as easily under the radar as well.

But the Unsullied also do these things as well, and they're loyal to Daenerys. So if the Brazen Beasts and the Shavepate are doing the dodgy, there's an external force to combat that.

I agree. It's too obvious.

But it's not. Neither Daenerys, nor Barristan, nor Skahaz ever think or vocalise the possibility (and if you're arguing Skahaz is the Harpy, wouldn't he be trying to throw the Green Grace under the bus?). Daenerys, a female leader, falls into the rather ironic trap of believing the Harpy must be a male leader when the mythical Harpy is a female.

[kephv]

How is it too obvious? Nobody knows he's connected to the Sons of the Harpy and the Sons of the Harpy are killing the Shavepate's men. If the killing didn't stop, all it does is discredit Hizdahr, it doesn't incriminate Skahaz in any way, shape or form.

It might have -- he does hate Hiz after all. But why risk it either? He all but hopes Dany will be convinced Hizdahr is the Harpy anyway, even swears to Dany that they do have a highborn overlord and Hizdahr (because of the ninety days) is it. Only problem was Dany wasn't convinced. And he didn't just want him away from the throne; he wanted him dead, and the ninety days was the most convenient way to do it.

Because the Green Grace is a respected cultural leader who has the ability to move between Daenerys court and the Meereenese nobility with impunity. The major families are looked upon with suspicion and mistrust, and their children are all hostages, but the Green Grace is lauded as a voice of peace who serves Meereen. Kind of like another eunuch character we know who talks a big game about the common good.

The Green Grace, because of her religious status, she is under virtually no scrutiny or surveillance, and because she runs the closest thing Meereen has to a hospital, she can control any information about wounded Harpies she doesn't want Daenerys to have.

As does Skahaz. He lacks the respect, but his new position in Dany's court and being the Harpy takes care of that. Plus, Skahaz is constantly trying to stir up trouble between Dany and the nobility, even doing things that will work against her -- killing hostages and extorting more gold from them. In the end, that could only benefit a person like the Harpy, bringing either more dissatisfied nobles to his cause or just the general population. But the Green Grace, as you mention, is the voice of peace, or at least trying to please the nobility and hopes for Dany to have friendly relations with them. Varys only serves the peace when it suits him. When he wants things to go really wrong (as in Feast) he starts turning things to the ruler's disadvantage and stirring up trouble.

And regarding the wounded, so can Skahaz.

And if you were doing shady and dark things, like say, Littlefinger, what face would you want to present to the world?

No, of course not. Talking about LF, though, the lesson on masks applies here to the beasts.

But the Unsullied also do these things as well, and they're loyal to Daenerys. So if the Brazen Beasts and the Shavepate are doing the dodgy, there's an external force to combat that.

I'm not sure I follow. The Shavepate is specifically given tasks to find out who the Harpy is by torturing people for Dany, and obvoiusly he didn't come up with anything.

But it's not. Neither Daenerys, nor Barristan, nor Skahaz ever think or vocalise the possibility (and if you're arguing Skahaz is the Harpy, wouldn't he be trying to throw the Green Grace under the bus?). Daenerys, a female leader, falls into the rather ironic trap of believing the Harpy must be a male leader when the mythical Harpy is a female.

Skahaz hates Hiz more, so I think that he was vocal about him is telling in the same way you say it would be for the GG. As for Dany and Barristan, we all know they're not the sharpest tools in the shed.

[danm_999]

It might have -- he does hate Hiz after all. But why risk it either?

That's just my point. There isn't a risk, only reward. There isn't any logical connection between Skahaz and the Sons of the Harpy's or Hizdahr's 90 day promise for him to be worried about. Daenerys is more likely to assume Hizdahr is full of it or that the Sons of the Harpy don't have a leader than assume Skahaz is the Harpy.

He all but hopes Dany will be convinced Hizdahr is the Harpy anyway, even swears to Dany that they do have a highborn overlord and Hizdahr (because of the ninety days) is it. Only problem was Dany wasn't convinced. And he didn't just want him away from the throne; he wanted him dead, and the ninety days was the most convenient way to do it.

No, the most convienient way would be to lie to Daenerys about how he had 'conclusive proof' Hizdahr was the Harpy, and having Daenerys kill him with her Unsullied. He's her equivilant of the Master of Whispers after all; if he tells her he's found the Harpy, she'll trust him. He could have had Hizdahr killed anytime he wanted.

Seriously, how was Skahaz's plan in your theory supposed to work here? He lets Hizdahr become King and then tries to assassinate him in a way that might also kill Daenerys, his patron? How did he know Daenerys wouldn't eat the locusts and Hizdahr would get to rule uncontested?

It just doesn't make any sense. If he wants Hizdahr out of the way, and he's the Harpy, he can do that at any point, with or without Daenerys help.

As does Skahaz. He lacks the respect, but his new position in Dany's court and being the Harpy takes care of that.

No, they don't. The Green Grace explains to Dany how the mo Kandak family aren't prestigious or respected. And he's not getting any cachet with the Meereense by sucking to Daenerys.

The reason the Brazen Beasts wear masks is because they're afraid of being targetted by the Sons of the Harpy. That should tell you everything you need to know about how illogical this theory is.

Plus, Skahaz is constantly trying to stir up trouble between Dany and the nobility, even doing things that will work against her -- killing hostages and extorting more gold from them.

And this is another problem; if Skahaz is actually the Harpy, why on earth would he suggest to Daenerys they kill the highborn hostages (ie the people he's fighting for)?

What if she has a 'blood of the dragon' incident and says yes? How is Skahaz going to explain to his guerilla allies he just suggested to their hated enemy they kill their children?

In the end, that could only benefit a person like the Harpy, bringing either more dissatisfied nobles to his cause or just the general population. But the Green Grace, as you mention, is the voice of peace, or at least trying to please the nobility and hopes for Dany to have friendly relations with them. Varys only serves the peace when it suits him. When he wants things to go really wrong (as in Feast) he starts turning things to the ruler's disadvantage and stirring up trouble.

I'm saying the Green Grace and Varys both stir up trouble, and neither are interested in peace.

And regarding the wounded, so can Skahaz.

How? The Brazen Beasts aren't trained in healing like the Blue Graces, who are the Maesters of Meereen.

If Skahaz was the Harpy, and not the Green Grace, when the Brazen Beasts come in with wounds the Blue Graces will tell Daenerys and Skahaz is undone.

No, of course not. Talking about LF, though, the lesson on masks applies here to the beasts.

No, it doesn't. The Beasts wear masks because they're afraid of their fellow Meereenese finding out who they are. That should tell you how unlikely it is they're involved with the Sons of the Harpy.

I'm not sure I follow. The Shavepate is specifically given tasks to find out who the Harpy is by torturing people for Dany, and obvoiusly he didn't come up with anything.

What I'm saying is, the Shavepate is not given absolute authority. Daenerys also has the Unsullied and the sellswords investigating and doing city patrols, so if the Brazen Beasts are dodgy, there are indenpendent sources to point this out.

Skahaz hates Hiz more, so I think that he was vocal about him is telling in the same way you say it would be for the GG. As for Dany and Barristan, we all know they're not the sharpest tools in the shed.

So then it isn't too obvious.

[Light a wight tonight]

Alternative reading: Shavepate and Hizdahr are on the same team under the Green Grace and the rivalry is a smokescreen, or that they are on the same side but represent rival factions. The Beasts dying may have been a result of factional rivalry, non-Beasts being killed either for unrelated reasons or randomly and represented as Beasts, or even fake deaths.

Meereenese politics are so convoluted and subltle that I'm not willing to take anything at face value.

Dany just needs to "get out of Dodge" as soon as possible. The situation is irretrievable.

[Theda Baratheon]

NO. BLASPHEMY. YOU LEAVE LOVELY LITTLE MISSANDEI ALONE. :lol:

[Harle The Handsome]

When someone is being nice and helpful in the game of thrones, and they have no reason to be, it's usually because they're about to screw you over big time.

QFT

[kephv]

That's just my point. There isn't a risk, only reward. There isn't any logical connection between Skahaz and the Sons of the Harpy's or Hizdahr's 90 day promise for him to be worried about. Daenerys is more likely to assume Hizdahr is full of it or that the Sons of the Harpy don't have a leader than assume Skahaz is the Harpy.

It might not point directly to him, or anyone else for that matter, but it could very well raise suspicion, especially during a time when Hizdahr was trying to prevent murders. At that point, Dany gave most of the victims to Shakaz to question and such. With Hiz trying to prevent murders, it makes sense not to commit anymore at the time, because he might not be able to cover his tracks as well. That's enough to leave it alone, and as I said, his plan was to take him out the picture completely, not just disrupt his marriage.

No, the most convienient way would be to lie to Daenerys about how he had 'conclusive proof' Hizdahr was the Harpy, and having Daenerys kill him with her Unsullied. He's her equivilant of the Master of Whispers after all; if he tells her he's found the Harpy, she'll trust him. He could have had Hizdahr killed anytime he wanted.

And what would that lie be and how would it sound anything other than self serving? He doesn't control Daenerys; he's just another court player and tries to use his influence to sway her when he can. Even Varys used proof when he wanted something done. Any lie he told her could've easily been denied by Hiz, who was very influenctial among the elite -- people Dany was trying not to piss off. So no, he couldn't have killed him anytime he wanted. He has to use his cunning to get the job done. Like other great players, he suggests and hints but never says so directly.

Seriously, how was Skahaz's plan in your theory supposed to work here? He lets Hizdahr become King and then tries to assassinate him in a way that might also kill Daenerys, his patron? How did he know Daenerys wouldn't eat the locusts and Hizdahr would get to rule uncontested?

It just doesn't make any sense. If he wants Hizdahr out of the way, and he's the Harpy, he can do that at any point, with or without Daenerys help

His patron but only temporarily. He made use of her while he could, but other than that she's entirely disposible and he would've had to do it sooner or later anyway -- especially since he knows she'll never marry him. As shown when she was gone, he was able to make use of the beasts and Barristan to accomplish his goals regardless of Daenerys. Destroying the slavers being one of them (the slavers were still outside the city then and any peace would've been broken with Hiz's death, as I'm sure he wanted). As of right now, he obviously wants them destroyed as establishing any useful power base wouldn't last long if they were around.

Also, the nobles weren't being targeted by the Harpy. It's violent street crime that's killing street dwellers at night, which makes him supposedly being able to kill Hiz at anytime very unlikely.

No, they don't. The Green Grace explains to Dany how the mo Kandak family aren't prestigious or respected. And he's not getting any cachet with the Meereense by sucking to Daenerys.

The reason the Brazen Beasts wear masks is because they're afraid of being targetted by the Sons of the Harpy. That should tell you everything you need to know about how illogical this theory is.

He isn't, but he's been building up respect. As I said, he now has respect with Dany, and with his Harpy killings, he's probably gained even more prestige among certain nobles -- if anyone is helping him at all besides his closest circle (I address this below). So he's working on both sides.

As for the Beasts... come on. What I'm saying here is that he is the Harpy. Logically, of course, the Harpy wouldn't be afraid of himself. But it's a nice excuse that A: directs suspicion away from him. and B: lets him establish a way to stealthily move around the pyramid with ease, disguised and totally anonymous. The Beasts are the perfect tool for the Harpy.

And this is another problem; if Skahaz is actually the Harpy, why on earth would he suggest to Daenerys they kill the highborn hostages (ie the people he's fighting for)?

What if she has a 'blood of the dragon' incident and says yes? How is Skahaz going to explain to his guerilla allies he just suggested to their hated enemy they kill their children?

Allies? Who said the upper most elites were his allies? It's true we're not given very much detail on his position in Meereen's society, but it sounds like he came from lesser nobility that isn't anywhere near as respected as Hizdahr. The most logical way to assume the killings went about was through hiring newly made homeless -- the artisans, craftsmen, and general shopkeepes -- that have been displaced by Dany when letting the slaves run loose. People like these would certainly be happy to be paid off to do the nightly killings (doing the hiring through carefully placed subordinates so it could never be traced back to him of course). Spray painting Harpy symbols and such is just one good way to point the blame at the nobility and create greater tension between Dany and them. And Shakaz is probably laughing the whole time.

I'm saying the Green Grace and Varys both stir up trouble, and neither are interested in peace.

I think the Green Grace, while probably hating Dany as much as the rest, generally does want peace -- though on her terms. She's a player, but one that I think would be fine with Dany if she continued to get her way.

How? The Brazen Beasts aren't trained in healing like the Blue Graces, who are the Maesters of Meereen.

If Skahaz was the Harpy, and not the Green Grace, when the Brazen Beasts come in with wounds the Blue Graces will tell Daenerys and Skahaz is undone.

The Beasts are trained to kill. A healing more in line with the Harpy's methods.

No, it doesn't. The Beasts wear masks because they're afraid of their fellow Meereenese finding out who they are. That should tell you how unlikely it is they're involved with the Sons of the Harpy.

Well, the fact that they were put together by the Harpy should tell you how likely it is. Of course, they don't know that so they have good reason to be afraid. Most of them of easily dispensable anyway, and only certain elements within the group as a whole seem to be directly loyal to the Shavepate.

What I'm saying is, the Shavepate is not given absolute authority. Daenerys also has the Unsullied and the sellswords investigating and doing city patrols, so if the Brazen Beasts are dodgy, there are indenpendent sources to point this out.

Well a moment ago you were ready to give him a great deal of power, and as a master of whispers type he certainly would be able to avert any suspicion away from him. Also, the Beasts wouldn't be doing the killing; that would just be suicidal to have them doing it directly.

So then it isn't too obvious.

Well, not to those two, though it does make sense to Barristan eventually. Mainly it's for the reader though. Since we see it from multiple perspectives, it's easier to pick up on things. Look around at most threads speculating who the harpy is and one of the prime canidates is usually the GG. So in that capacity it is obvious.

[danm_999]

It might not point directly to him, or anyone else for that matter, but it could very well raise suspicion, especially during a time when Hizdahr was trying to prevent murders. At that point, Dany gave most of the victims to Shakaz to question and such. With Hiz trying to prevent murders, it makes sense not to commit anymore at the time, because he might not be able to cover his tracks as well. That's enough to leave it alone, and as I said, his plan was to take him out the picture completely, not just disrupt his marriage.

This is so much simpler than you're trying to make it. If the Shavepate is responsible for the Sons of the Harpy, and the Shavepate wants to undermine Hizdahr, he simply allows the killings to continue.

There's no link between him and the killings, and Hizdahr is out of the running for King before he ever begins. There is literally no reason to make Hizdahr look like an influential peacebroker to Daenerys.

And what would that lie be and how would it sound anything other than self serving? He doesn't control Daenerys; he's just another court player and tries to use his influence to sway her when he can. But Daenerys trusts him. Even Varys used proof when he wanted something done.

What? Varys fabricates evidence all the time (see Tyrion's trial). The Shavepate could easily have done the same. It's especially easy when torture is your main source of information; just grab some poor bastard and torture him until he claims he's a Harpy and he gets all his orders from Hizdahr. Not hard.

Any lie he told her could've easily been denied by Hiz, who was very influenctial among the elite -- people Dany was trying not to piss off. So no, he couldn't have killed him anytime he wanted.

If she thought he was the Harpy and was killing her Unsullied, she absolutely would have.

His patron but only temporarily.

Daenerys actually expresses several times in ADWD that she will stay in Meereen long term, most notably when the Qartheen delegation implores her to leave. The Shavepate is present at this meeting.

He isn't, but he's been building up respect. As I said, he now has respect with Dany, and with his Harpy killings, he's probably gained even more prestige among certain nobles -- if anyone is helping him at all besides his closest circle (I address this below). So he's working on both sides.

No noble family in Meereen will respect him for doing Daenerys dirty work, for suggesting she assassinate one of them for every dead Unsullied, for suggesting she take child hostages, and for suggesting she kill child hostages.

As for the Beasts... come on. What I'm saying here is that he is the Harpy. Logically, of course, the Harpy wouldn't be afraid of himself.

This is called circular reasoning.

Allies? Who said the upper most elites were his allies?

They're exclusively killing former slaves and freedmen.

It's true we're not given very much detail on his position in Meereen's society, but it sounds like he came from lesser nobility that isn't anywhere near as respected as Hizdahr. The most logical way to assume the killings went about was through hiring newly made homeless -- the artisans, craftsmen, and general shopkeepes -- that have been displaced by Dany when letting the slaves run loose. People like these would certainly be happy to be paid off to do the nightly killings (doing the hiring through carefully placed subordinates so it could never be traced back to him of course). Spray painting Harpy symbols and such is just one good way to point the blame at the nobility and create greater tension between Dany and them. And Shakaz is probably laughing the whole time.

You're arguing homeless craftsmen with no military training are killing Unsullied patrols? Seriously?

Whoever is killing the Unsullied are obviously well armed and armoured, and have good arms training. They can't be anyone but the elites.

I think the Green Grace, while probably hating Dany as much as the rest, generally does want peace -- though on her terms. She's a player, but one that I think would be fine with Dany if she continued to get her way.

We've repeatedly seen anybody who talks a big game about peace (Varys, Littlefinger, Roose Bolton) is full of it.

The Beasts are trained to kill. A healing more in line with the Harpy's methods.

This doesn't answer the question of how the Brazen Beasts are hiding their wounded with no medical training.

Well, the fact that they were put together by the Harpy should tell you how likely it is.

More circular reasoning.

Of course, they don't know that so they have good reason to be afraid. Most of them of easily dispensable anyway, and only certain elements within the group as a whole seem to be directly loyal to the Shavepate.

Actually, Barristan's coup demonstrates how nearly all of them are loyal to Skahaz.

Well a moment ago you were ready to give him a great deal of power,

In adivising Daenerys. Not in policing Meereen. He shares that task with the Unsullied.

Well, not to those two, though it does make sense to Barristan eventually. Mainly it's for the reader though. Since we see it from multiple perspectives, it's easier to pick up on things. Look around at most threads speculating who the harpy is and one of the prime canidates is usually the GG. So in that capacity it is obvious.

That's because people in those threads have down in depth textual analysis. It's obvious in the same way R+L=J is obvious.

That doesn't mean it's wrong. It's a non-argument.