Do the Warlocks Have Euron?

[Techelles]

No proof of him hiring anyone to kill Balon.

Piracy ? Westeros has no law against piracy in other parts of the world.

Rape ? Who exactly has he raped ? From what I recall he takes lord soanso's bastard daughter when he takes the Shield Islands, but she seems rather willing.

Euron definitely hired a faceless man to kill Balon. Do you have some alternate theory about the Ghost of High Heart's vision?

Also, I have to think that attacking the Shield Islands and raiding the Reach is against a bunch of laws. I'm not sure I understand the point of arguing that Euron has never overstepped legal boundaries. It's pretty apparent, and it's part of his character, for better or worse.

[Lord Reaver]

Also, I have to think that attacking the Shield Islands and raiding the Reach is against a bunch of laws.

That's war. You might as well argue that Tywin is a criminal for his actions in the Riverlands.

[Parwan]

At that point, he's the King of the Iron Islands. As such, he IS the law.

1) I maintain that Euron is a megalomaniac. 2) I maintain that Euron is a criminal. If the reply to #1 is "perhaps," then the reply to #2 cannot legitimately be any stronger than "perhaps." There are many reasons for this. Here's one:

A man from country X goes to country Y and commits a crime. He is a criminal. The fact that he is a citizen of country X is irrelevant. If the act committed is not a crime in country X, this is also irrelevant. The man committed a crime. He is a criminal. One could try to get out of this in Euron's case by claiming that no action committed by him was a crime in the place where he committed it. This is exceedingly implausible. The best one could possibly claim is, "Well, maybe there is some possibility that Euron Greyjoy is not a criminal."

[ladyinblack]

Interesting topic ---have to head out to work so quick reply---Euron has some kind of alliance or power over the warlocks. In AFFC OR ADWD they were heading to Pentos, I think & he intercepted their ship & that is how he came into his stash of Nightshade ( which I believe is a powerful hallucinogenic drink) & company of said warlocks. It is creepy & for no benign reason that all his shipmates are mute.

The Dusky Woman---we know she is one of Euron's pets & yet, Vicky shares every thought with her ( even when all us readers are screaming no Victarion, stay thy tongue) what is her role? did she poison his wound?

Moquorro ----he thinks Vic is a buffoon--true dat & is playing him all the way to Dany..

where will this go? it'll be fascinating to find out

Euron is one of the most twisted and cunning of the characters in ASOIAF

[Lord Reaver]

1) I maintain that Euron is a megalomaniac. 2) I maintain that Euron is a criminal. If the reply to #1 is "perhaps," then the reply to #2 cannot legitimately be any stronger than "perhaps."

That does not follow logically. There is no causal relation between being a megalomaniac and breaking laws. There have been plenty of megalomaniacs who broke no laws, just as there have been those who did. The one does not implicate the other.

A man from country X goes to country Y and commits a crime. He is a criminal.

A criminal in country Y, yes. But not necessarily in country X. See the privateers for example of this.

[Septon Meribald]

A criminal in country Y, yes. But not necessarily in country X. See the privateers for example of this.

Privateers have a writ of mark from their sovereign legitimizing their actions against a foreign power. It was a very specific and very well documented thing. Euron was never given a license to raid foreign commerce by Robert. You could make the claim that Balon would have allowed it, but seeing as Balon's rebellion failed, Robert was still the king of the Iron Islands. Euron is a pirate, not a privateer, and every culture that has ever had any kind of official and regulated trade has outlawed piracy.

Also had Euron not been at fault for what happened with Victarion's wife why would Balon banish him?

[Lord Reaver]

For sleeping with his brother's wife ?

As for the piracy, while there was no writ issued, it is fairly clear that the Iron Throne does not care one whit for the actions of the Ironborn in waters belonging to other nations. Those Ironborn who wished to follow the Old Ways have been allowed to raid other countries at will and still been allowed to come back to Westeros without any punishment. If they were criminals, the Iron Trone is exceptionally bad at pursuing and punishing them for it.

[Septon Meribald]

For sleeping with his brother's wife ?

As for the piracy, while there was no writ issued, it is fairly clear that the Iron Throne does not care one whit for the actions of the Ironborn in waters belonging to other nations. Those Ironborn who wished to follow the Old Ways have been allowed to raid other countries at will and still been allowed to come back to Westeros without any punishment. If they were criminals, the Iron Trone is exceptionally bad at pursuing and punishing them for it.

Protecting ships in the waters near Volantis is the responsibility of Volantis. The same goes for Pentos, and Braavos and Qarth. We see very little in the way of international cooperation on law keeping. Just because the Iron Throne doesn't waste its resources hunting down people who committed crimes abroad doesn't mean those people aren't still criminals. When Daeron deserted the Night's Watch in Braavos, he was still a criminal for it, despite the fact the Sea Lord of Braavos would be very unlikely to execute him or send him back to the Wall to be executed.

[Techelles]

That's war. You might as well argue that Tywin is a criminal for his actions in the Riverlands.

A war that Euron started. By attacking the Reach, Euron is rebelling against the crown. That's treason, which is a crime. Why does this hair need splitting? I don't see what whitewashing Euron achieves, since the entire appeal of his character stems from his sinister image as ruthless, reaving, half-mad pirate lord with an insidious fixation on magic and dragons. Assassination is still a crime, too. I'd have thought that Euron fans would embrace the man for what he is. I think he's a fascinating character, but not calling a spade a spade is mystifying to me, to be honest.

And of course Tywin was a criminal for releasing Gregor on the Riverlands. That's why Ned sent Beric to execute Gregor and summoned Tywin to KL.

[JMJ]

RE: Euron's evil-ness, what about

Hints that the Damphair chapter(s) allude to Damphair having been molested by Euron?

That would appear to add to Euron's general evil-ness...

[Septon Meribald]

A war that Euron started. By attacking the Reach, Euron is rebelling against the crown. That's treason, which is a crime. Why does this hair need splitting? I don't see what whitewashing Euron achieves, since the entire appeal of his character stems from his sinister image as ruthless, reaving, half-mad pirate lord with an insidious fixation on magic and dragons. Assassination is still a crime, too. I'd have thought that Euron fans would embrace the man for what he is. I think he's a fascinating character, but not calling a spade a spade is mystifying to me, to be honest.

And of course Tywin was a criminal for releasing Gregor on the Riverlands. That's why Ned sent Beric to execute Gregor and summoned Tywin to KL.

Agreed, there seems to be very little gained by trying to clear Euron of criminal activity by technicalities, which are tenuous at best and non existent at worst.

[Parwan]

Do we agree on the following two items?

Victarion is not a free agent. Moqorro's vision of the tentacles grasping the iron captain is accurate.

If the dusky woman is not a warlock, she is a tool or an agent of the warlocks.

Concerning the first item, there are different possibilities on who exactly is pulling the tentacles/strings. Someone is pulling them though. Concerning the second item, the warlocks may be working with or through Euron. Or they may be controlling him. However that may be, the dusky woman is, in some sense, "one of them."

[Lord Reaver]

A war that Euron started. By attacking the Reach, Euron is rebelling against the crown. That's treason, which is a crime.

By this line of reasoning, anyone not Joffrey who claims the throne is a criminal. I don't see people talking about Stannis as a petty criminal though.

Why does this hair need splitting? I don't see what whitewashing Euron achieves, since the entire appeal of his character stems from his sinister image as ruthless, reaving, half-mad pirate lord with an insidious fixation on magic and dragons.

Did you not see or simply choose to ignore the part where I expressly said I'm not doing this to whitewash anyone. The hair needs splitting because none of the other actors in the war is regarded as simple criminals, even though you could call them that. Stannis for instance is a criminal by virtue of rebelling against the throne, but I don't see many people dismissing him as a simple criminal the way they do Euron.

Assassination is still a crime, too. I'd have thought that Euron fans would embrace the man for what he is. I think he's a fascinating character, but not calling a spade a spade is mystifying to me, to be honest.

That's just the point. He's much much more than simply a "criminal".

[FittleLinger]

A criminal is one who has broken the law. Can we agree that Euron has broken the law at least once in his lifetime? I think you are the one adding the "simply" before the word criminal, so I don't see why this hair needs splitting. He's a complex criminal, that OK?

[Lord Reaver]

Hmm, yes I'll concede that Euron apparently broke the law by having sex with his brother's wife (with or without her consent). For this he was banished by the Lord Paramount, his brother. Upon him returning and being chosen King, however, that sentence is moot.

[FittleLinger]

Hmm, yes I'll concede that Euron apparently broke the law by having sex with his brother's wife (with or without her consent). For this he was banished by the Lord Paramount, his brother. Upon him returning and being chosen King, however, that sentence is moot.

The iron islands are a part of Westeros. Slavery is forbidden by law there. Euron uses slaves.

Untill he banishes that law as king of the Iron Islands, or banishes it as king of Westeros, it's a crime.

[Lord Reaver]

Protecting ships in the waters near Volantis is the responsibility of Volantis. The same goes for Pentos, and Braavos and Qarth. We see very little in the way of international cooperation on law keeping.

Which is precisely my point. Euron might be considered a criminal in Pentos, Braavos or Qarth, but he certainly isn't in Westeros.

Just because the Iron Throne doesn't waste its resources hunting down people who committed crimes abroad doesn't mean those people aren't still criminals.

Yes it does. A nation or King that allows criminals to run free is rightfully considered weak. So your alternatives given the fact noone in Westeros tries punishing Euron is either that the King of the 7k is fine with being seen as weak, or that he's not considered a criminal.

[Lord Reaver]

Untill he banishes that law as king of the Iron Islands, or banishes it as king of Westeros, it's a crime.

He clearly has set aside that law the moment he became King of the Isles.

[Techelles]

By this line of reasoning, anyone not Joffrey who claims the throne is a criminal. I don't see people talking about Stannis as a petty criminal though.

Technically, they are. Robb, Stannis and Renly are rebels. The only one who denies it is Stannis, and that's because he happens to know the truth of Joffrey's parentage. Of course, in each case there are mitigating factors that make the rebel causes seem justified, to varying degrees. But this is a thread about Euron, and I tend to think that he'd actually be insulted to hear someone claim that he is not a criminal.

Also, I recently saw someone else say something that I think applies here (can't remember who...maybe Danm): You don't get to use the "It's war, and war is hell" defense if you are the one who starts the war. Euron's war is a purely aggressive one, which makes it far less justified (and more criminal, in my mind) than Robb's or Stannis's.

Moreover, rebellion against the crown is far from the only charge that one might level against Euron. His entire way of life is against every law east of the Iron Islands.

Did you not see or simply choose to ignore the part where I expressly said I'm not doing this to whitewash anyone. The hair needs splitting because none of the other actors in the war is regarded as simple criminals, even though you could call them that. Stannis for instance is a criminal by virtue of rebelling against the throne, but I don't see many people dismissing him as a simple criminal the way they do Euron.

The answer there is that no, I did not see it. Haven't read all your posts in this thread. But whatever you may have said you're not doing, it's the arguments I have seen you make that I've been responding to, and the thrust behind them seems to be that it's unfair to call Euron a criminal, which I think misses a significant aspect of his character. I don't know what other people have been saying, but my point was never that Euron ought to be dismissed as a "simple criminal." It's that whatever else Euron may be (many things, no doubt), he is also a criminal. I was taking issue only with your unwillingness to call him one of the things that he is.

That's just the point. He's much much more than simply a "criminal".

Indeed, I'm sure he is. But that doesn't mean he isn't a criminal, too -- which, again, is the only point I was making. And I'm still confused about why you won't call him one, since it's such an integral part of his identity.

[Parwan]

I'm willing to settle for the idea that Euron is a transgressor of the rules. If others want to pursue the "criminal matter," that's fine, but I want to put it behind me.

I do not think that Crow's Eye has as much control over things as he believes he does. As a matter of fact, I believe that the warlocks are largely, if not entirely, the ones in charge.* I'm willing, however, to entertain theories that the wizards are allies or powers behind the throne. Mainly, I do not think they are slaves. I brought up the "criminal matter" when I was trying out some thoughts on Shade of the Evening, To me, the stuff is not an hallucinogen, nor an intoxicant, nor any other kind of straight-forward chemical agent. If you take it, it gets to you. It has gotten to Pyat Pree and friends. They, in turn, use it to get to others. My speculation is that it somehow penetrates the psyche. It gives those who imbibe it powerful rewards in just those psychological (mystical, even spiritual) places where they most seek rewards. Dany saw visions of Westeros and her family. Euron came up with powerful ideas about control and conquest.

The stuff gives rewards, and it takes its payment in control. Drink enough of it, and you are under control.

.....................................

* Or one might suggest that they are only relatively stronger than the ironman. Maybe there is some evil power pulling all of their strings.