Proof of the Legitimacy of Religions in Westeros

[Jaime's Good Hand]

This is my first post here and I attempted to search for this topic but the forum wouldn't let me, so I apologize if this has been spoken about before, but:

One of the major questions I've always had throughout reading this series is that, while we are shown the existence and belief in a multitude of religions in both Westeros and Essos, it appears that the red priests are "correct" in their belief in R'hllor. The red priests shown throughout the series, from Thoros to Moqqoro to Melisandre, have shown legitimate magical abilities that they attribute to their religion. While this could simply be a religion based around the use of magic I always found it strange that in the other religions portrayed (Seven, Old Gods, Many-Faced-God) seemed moreso theoretical.

I guess the question I am really asking is if there has been any textual proof or strong hints to the legitimacy of the various religions in ASOIAF or if they are generally regarded to be more philisophical/ideological.

[thecryptile]

I see alot of textual evidence for the Red God and the Old Gods. Red God can resurrect the dead, the Old Gods can see the future and past.

The Seven and the Drowned God dont make their presence felt in the same way.

[Pharnavaziani]

Heh, I signed on to the forum largely with the intent to ask this same question!

I find the cult of R'hllor to be deeply troubling in a lot of ways*, but it's really interesting - and telling - that amidst all this profound change in Westeros a fundamentally evangelizing, non-nationalistic religion seems to be displacing the Faith of the Seven. Given how important intrigue is to the story, I suspect GRRM may have wanted to add in at least some examination of the powerful consequences of highly 'contagious' religious sects on the political environment.

There is a whole seperate level to it, though, in that both R'hllor and the Old Gods seem to have very real temporal powers. To me, the best evidence that R'hllor has any real power is Thoros of Myr's initial revival of Beric Dondarrion - he wasn't exactly known as great sorcerer and, unless I'm mistaken, was simply giving the slain Dondarrion a R'hllorian last rite. Even so, there is almost certainly a lot more going on than meets the eye - I can't believe that a setting as morally complex, multi-theological, and grim as ASOIAF would simply have a single set of 'true gods' whose prayers, rituals, and motives are understoof by men.

* The burning people alive thing, for example.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Welcome to the forum! :grouphug:

Almost all of the religions have some magic associated with them. The Drowned God supposedly resurrects people through Iron CPR (amongst others), the Seven are granting boons like there's no tomorrow, the old god have wargs and greenseers, the FM wear discarded faces... my personal interpretation is that no foundation is any more sound than the other and in all cases magic is simply magic and superstition is simply superstition. And like all the other instances of magic and superstition there's no divine source.

Honestly, we have a world where there are so many different kinds of impressive magics... it would be really surprising if there weren't a bunch of religions trying to coopt this or that cool thing that's not understood yet --- That's basically their job description. In Westeros, they just have especially awesome stuff to boast about.

[yolkboy]

Children of the forest called upon their gods (old gods) to smash the arm of Dorne, which was a landmass connecting to Essos.

"Allegedly"

[Nagisa Furukawa]

I don't think any of them are legitimate. I think there are two fundamental forces in the world: ice and fire. Two sides of the same coin, they can bring people back from the dead or show them images and scenes from other times and places when tapped into. Humans, being humans, ascribe this power to deities with desires and emotions and opinions.

Interestingly, I don't know if this will ever be 100% answered in the series; GRRM has made comments along the lines of gods showing up in ASoIaF whenever God shows up on CNN (a jab, I think, at the mystical side of shows like Battlestar Galactica or Lost).

[mindchap]

The faith of the seven seems to be just a faith-based faith whereas the old gods we actually see forms of and actual events related directly to their power.

There is a similar discussion here.

[Sigurður Ingi]

I wondered if seven comes from same root as the god with many faces since in seven it is that they believe in in god but has seven aspects.

[AegonSnow]

Something CAUSED the long winter and magic to come into the world.

If Dany's dragons didn't revive, winter might not be so bad, R'hollr and the Gods would still be in hibernation.

[mindchap]

Something CAUSED the long winter and magic to come into the world.

If Dany's dragons didn't revive, winter might not be so bad, R'hollr and the Gods would still be in hibernation.

The winters have gotten worse since the last dragon died, if anything they helped to keep the balance. The Others were already moving south before GoT even begins and that was before Dany's dragons.

[AegonSnow]

I think the radical seasons were caused by a Devil's pact when the Children of the Forest broke up the Stepstones, near Dorne. They might have made some kind of really bad deal

[Gingerchu]

As with real world religions they all have a reason for being believed (I myself am an atheist so I may be biased) at one point there was one point that sets the gears in motion.

The old gods were/are likely greenseers using weirwoods, possibly warging animals and making nice natural seeming things happen

The followers of R'hllor obviously show signs of using magic possibly one man teaching his 'disciples' magic and people believing him a god.

The followers of the drowned god feel like new men/women after having a near death experience and it shows ideals that the ironborn are attracted to.

The seven are the aspects that all good and honourable men/women should live by, it has basic chivalry and goodwill to all people great and small.

My point is that all religions can be considered 'legitimate' by whoever chooses to follow it and disproved by those against it

[HopeForSpring]

I don't think any of them are legitimate. I think there are two fundamental forces in the world: ice and fire. Two sides of the same coin, they can bring people back from the dead or show them images and scenes from other times and places when tapped into. Humans, being humans, ascribe this power to deities with desires and emotions and opinions.

Interestingly, I don't know if this will ever be 100% answered in the series; GRRM has made comments along the lines of gods showing up in ASoIaF whenever God shows up on CNN (a jab, I think, at the mystical side of shows like Battlestar Galactica or Lost).

This.

[TheSpottedCat]

Heh, I signed on to the forum largely with the intent to ask this same question!

I find the cult of R'hllor to be deeply troubling in a lot of ways*, but it's really interesting - and telling - that amidst all this profound change in Westeros a fundamentally evangelizing, non-nationalistic religion seems to be displacing the Faith of the Seven. Given how important intrigue is to the story, I suspect GRRM may have wanted to add in at least some examination of the powerful consequences of highly 'contagious' religious sects on the political environment.

There is a whole seperate level to it, though, in that both R'hllor and the Old Gods seem to have very real temporal powers. To me, the best evidence that R'hllor has any real power is Thoros of Myr's initial revival of Beric Dondarrion - he wasn't exactly known as great sorcerer and, unless I'm mistaken, was simply giving the slain Dondarrion a R'hllorian last rite. Even so, there is almost certainly a lot more going on than meets the eye - I can't believe that a setting as morally complex, multi-theological, and grim as ASOIAF would simply have a single set of 'true gods' whose prayers, rituals, and motives are understoof by men.

* The burning people alive thing, for example.

Firstly, for the burning people alive thing: many acts have been done in the name of a religion that weren't part of the original doctrine of the religion, but "additions" or interpretations of said religion by certain of its followers.

As for R'hllor being proved as the real god because some of its followers/priests can perform magic, I don't think it's a valid conclusion. Yes, Melisandre and Thoros have performed some powerful magic. But it doesn't mean that it was R'hlllor that helped them do it. We get no actual proof of R'hllor himself existing. Perhaps it's some other power(s) that Mel and Thoros are inclined to believe is their god. We have also seen followers of the Old Gods having supernatural powers, as well as followers of the Many-Faced God. Which one of them is the real god? Are they the same god, worshipped in different forms, or are they different disctinct gods? Or perhaps they are supernatural powers but not gods per se (as in omniscient, omnipotent, creators of the world etc etc.).

I also wish to address you view of the Faith of the Seven as nationalistic (I believe you meant localized or nation-based, not nationalistic, which means something different). The worship of the Seven came to the Westeros from Andalos (which is in Essos) via the conquering Andals. Which begs the question: are there remnants of the Faith in Essos?

Undoubtly, the faith of R'hllor has found some (perhaps significant) support in Westeros, but I don't think it will be displacing the Seven or the Old Gods anytime soon. The Faith is now more powerful than it has even been since the Targaryen conquest, with the rising of the Faith Militant and the Sparrows, and the Northmen joining Stannis in his march to Winterfell make it pretty clear that "Red Rahlloo means nothing here".

To conclude, I doubt we'll ever find out whether and/or which gods are "real" or that it really matters. It's a plot device, used to aid the story-telling and not a main plot point, imho.

[Corvo Attano]

If of the thinking that The red God & the drowned god are the same god interpreted by different cultures, and as there's fairly solid evidence of the red god existing, the drowned god exists as well.

[King of Winters]

Firstly Welcome to the Forum :cheers:

The religions of ASOIAF are basically magic. Magic that people don't fully understand yet. There are religions that have some powers, Old Gods, R'hollor, but they're not proper gods, people see magic and because they don't understand what it is they think it's a divine being and call it god(s) and worship that type of magic. The Old Gods have been revealed to be nothing more than Greenseers that can see and work through Wierwoods. And the R'hollor faith is fire magic. And there are some religions that have nothing to do with magic and don't work, Drowned God and The Seven. So any religion that has shown that it has powers is probably magic, The North and Old Gods are mainly Ice magic and R'hollor is Fire magic.

[Sullen]

Firstly Welcome to the Forum :cheers:

The religions of ASOIAF are basically magic. Magic that people don't fully understand yet. There are religions that have some powers, Old Gods, R'hollor, but they're not proper gods, people see magic and because they don't understand what it is they think it's a divine being and call it god(s) and worship that type of magic. The Old Gods have been revealed to be nothing more than Greenseers that can see and work through Wierwoods. And the R'hollor faith is fire magic. And there are some religions that have nothing to do with magic and don't work, Drowned God and The Seven. So any religion that has shown that it has powers is probably magic, The North and Old Gods are mainly Ice magic and R'hollor is Fire magic.

I don't know about the Drowned God to be honest.

There is Patchface and his prophecies, and I can't NOT (Double negative... yay!) see Aeron summoning a Kraken in the future.

[thecryptile]

When I'm reading a fantasy, I work on the assumption that all religion is BS, untill I see evidence for it.

We've seen evidence that the Red God and Old Gods are real, but so far none to support the Seven or the Drowned God. Patchface isn't the same level of proof as a shadowbaby, or Brans POV where he looks through the eyes of the hearttree.

[King of Winters]

I don't know about the Drowned God to be honest.

There is Patchface and his prophecies, and I can't NOT (Double negative... yay!) see Aeron summoning a Kraken in the future.

We haven't actually seen any proof of the Drowned God's power (magic). We've only heard that they drown babies and resuscitate them afterwards.

Patch face might not even be connected to any religions. He says prophecies in rhyme and they come true, but I don't he's connected to any Westeros religions or religions we know of.

Aeron summoning Krakens. The only way I see this happening is if he turned out to be a warg and warged into one.

[Light a wight tonight]

My tuppence: the fact that the acolytes of R'hllor have tapped into a source of power or magic doesn't mean that their theology is sound. Their dichotomy is invalid. Both light and darkness are needed. Daylight is as full of terrors as night; it's just that we fear them less because we can see and understand them better. The terror is really in our minds. R'hllorites need to sleep with a night light because of their irrational fear.