[TV and Book Spoilers] Poor Theon

[jpreis]

It looks like the castration theories were right. I'm guessing since GRRM wrote this episode, it's like he's saying... "Yeah, Ramsay castrates Theon."

I know it's heavily hinted at in Dance, but it never flat out says that Theon was castrated.

I think you and others are confusing castration with penectomy. By definition, one has nothing to do with the other.

Even if GRRM wrote the episode, that does not imply that anything depicted in the episode happened in the books, or that he even liked, or endorsed, the episode's version of the story. Even in episodes where he's a writer, the two principal writers and creators of the show give him an outline of the episode. He cannot deviate from that outline. If the outline says Theon is to have his penis cut off after being seduced, then George must develop scenes that fulfill that expectation.

Not one word of the books suggests that Theon was castrated. However, there are two passages that hint that Ramsay cut off Theon's penis, although the actual event, and the specific circumstances leading up to it, are never described, or even mentioned:

(1) "Lord Ramsay treats his captives honorably so long as they keep faith with him.”

He has only taken toes and fingers and that other thing...

(2) Ramsay rose, the firelight shining on his face. “Reek, get over here. Get her ready for me.”

For a moment he did not understand. “I … do you mean … m’lord, I have no … I …”

“With your mouth,” Lord Ramsay said. “And be quick about it..."

"That other thing" that Ramsay took and which Reek reminded Ramsay he does not have--what else could it be, if not a penis?

[jpreis]

He hasn't had his teeth knocked out with a hammer yet, had his toes or his other fingers flayed and cut off, been turned into a malnourished Gollum figure yet, or been conditioned into living his life as one of Ramsay's dogs, covered ifrom head to foot in excrement: so I'd imagine there's still a ways to go. And As I've said before, it's implied that he's additionally castrated on top of having his dick cut off to even out his wounds before he's made mock Prince of Winterfell.

Where in the text is this castration implied?

1)

He has only taken toes and fingers and that other thing, when he might have had my tongue, or peeled the skin off my legs from heel to thigh.

2) “When my father brings you back, I’m going to take another finger. I’ll let you choose which one.”

3) Ramsay rose, the firelight shining on his face. “Reek, get over here. Get her ready for me.”

For a moment he did not understand. “I … do you mean … m’lord, I have no … I …”

“With your mouth,” Lord Ramsay said.

[The Killer Snark]

jpries - Theon has had his penis removed just before he's sent to Moat Cailin. That's the penectomy. It's fairly blatantly referenced in the text. When he's at the feast before he's taken in by Roose Bolton, he has received a fresh injury that causes further comments on how he isn't a man repeatedly from Ramsay, along with the fact it causes him not to want to be seen naked, not just on account of the old but on account of the newest injury. Since he already had his penis removed, the new wound must logically be a castration. Ramsay evens out Theon's injuries elsewhere. It's the only thing that the post-Moat Cailin mutilation could be. The fact that many people, as has been said, confuse 'penectomy' with 'castration' confuses being able to make these points.

[jpreis]

Theon has had his penis removed just before he's sent to Moat Cailin. That's the penectomy. It's fairly blatantly referenced in the text.

No penectomy is "blatantly" referenced anywhere in text. That Ramsay cut off Theon's penis is merely hinted.

How did you reach the conclusion that it occurred "just before" he was sent to Moat Cailin? Do you actually believe that he'd be fit to ride a horse to Moat Cailin a day, or even a week, after his penis was cut off? You don't seem to have a clue about the necessary treatment and care following a penectomy, and the healing time involved. Look up surgical "penectomy."

For all we know, this could have occurred anytime between the time Ramsay captured Theon and the time Theon recalls at Moat Cailin (chapter 5-20. Reek) that Ramsay "has only taken toes and fingers and that other thing…" Even then it's not clear what "that other thing" refers to until we read a passage near the end of the chapter (chapter 5-37 "The Prince of Winterfell") where Ramsay orders Reek to get his bride ready for him and Reek says "m'lord, I have no…"

When he's at the feast before he's taken in by Roose Bolton, he has received a fresh injury that causes further comments on how he isn't a man repeatedly from Ramsay, along with the fact it causes him not to want to be seen naked, not just on account of the old but on account of the newest injury.

This "feast" occurred in chapter 5-32 "Reek". Show me the actual text -- not your paraphrasing, interpretations, or conclusions--- about the "fresh injury" and "newest injury."

Theon to Roose: "A bath…? I would sooner not, m'lord. I have…wounds, I … and these clothes, Lord Ramsay gave them to me, he…he said that I was never to take them off, save at his command…" He could not let them take the clothes Lord Ramsay gave him. He could not let them see him.

"I have…wounds" does not imply a "fresh injury". Surely, you don't believe that the same day Theon was supposedly castrated, he'd be riding a horse to Barrow Hall with Roose Bolton.

Since he already had his penis removed, the new wound must logically be a castration.

I don't find any passage that suggests a "new wound." And even if there were such a passage, there's nothing logical about the conclusion that Theon would be riding a horse to Barrow Hall the same day he (Theon) was supposedly castrated.

Ramsay evens out Theon's injuries elsewhere. It's the only thing that the post-Moat Cailin mutilation could be.

No, Ramsay doesn't "even out" anything anywhere. In the first Reek chapter (5-12), we read: "Thus far he had lost two fingers off his left hand and the pinky off his right, but only the little toe off his right foot against three from his left. Sometimes Ramsay would make japes about balancing him out."

Note that the phrase used is "balancing him out", not "evening him out", and refers to cutting off additional toes or fingers to balance the count of toes or fingers on each side. The notion that you "balance out" (or "even out", to use your term) a penectomy with a castration makes no grammatical sense.

The fact that many people, as has been said, confuse 'penectomy' with 'castration' confuses being able to make these points.

I doubt that it even occurs to most readers that Ramsay cut off Theon's penis. Such a thing is beyond their reading comprehension, if not beyond their imagination.

[Hiram McDrogon]

As someone who blasted through DwD far too quickly, I found it pretty obvious in the text that Theon had lost either his penis or his balls, or possibly both. Which part exactly he'd lost was the extent of the mystery (a mystery I was happy not to give too much thought!), although "that other thing", singular, suggests (singular) penis rather than (plural) testicles.

I don't see how the anyone could argue that the TV scene displayed one kind of operation rather than the other (or both). Something's gone down there, yeah, but what and how much is uncertain.

[The Killer Snark]

To answer the above question, Theon is scared in the first Reek chapter that something worse will be cut off other than his toes or fingers the next time he's punished. By the time he reaches Moat Cailin, he's also lost 'that other thing'. We don't know exactly how much time has elapsed between both chapters. Ramsay would have branded him to cauterise the wound, or cut it off with a heated knife. I admit, though, it's presented in a somewhat unrealistic manner, but there you are.

It says directly in the text, I can't remember where, that he has been freshly wounded in a similar compromising location before Roose Bolton takes him in. I don't know how much clearer I can be.

[jpreis]

As someone who blasted through DwD far too quickly, I found it pretty obvious in the text that Theon had lost either his penis or his balls, or possibly both. Which part exactly he'd lost was the extent of the mystery (a mystery I was happy not to give too much thought!), although "that other thing", singular, suggests (singular) penis rather than (plural) testicles.

I don't see how the anyone could argue that the TV scene displayed one kind of operation rather than the other (or both). Something's gone down there, yeah, but what and how much is uncertain.

These are the relevant passages that HINT that Ramsay has cut off Theon's cock:

1) At Moat Cailin Theon recalls that Ramsay "has only has only taken toes and fingers

and that other thing

, when he might have had my tongue, or peeled the skin off my legs from heel to thigh.

2) Later, at Winterfell, when Ramsay is preparing to bed his new bride, he commands Theon (Reek) to

get her ready

for him. For a moment, Theon did not understand: “I … do you mean … m’lord,

I have no

… I …” Ramsay clarifies: “With your mouth. And be quick about it. If she's not wet by the time I'm done disrobing, I will cut off that tongue of yours and nail it to the wall.”

Surely, "that other thing" (singular) cannot refer to balls (plural). And Theon wouldn't be using his balls to "get her ready." So it should be "pretty obvious" that these passages do not support the conclusion that Theon was castrated. The conclusion that he was castrated is mere speculation.

As for the show, the dialogue in the Theon seduction scene went on and on ad nauseam about Theon's "cock" and how everyone in Westeros is supposedly talking about it. It should be "pretty obvious" that the purpose of all that contrived chatter about Theon's amazing penis was to anticipate a penectomy, not a castration. But feel free to speculate that he's also castrated, even though it's "pretty obvious" that that was not where the dialogue was leading.

[The Killer Snark]

We can at least be agreed on one thing, and put down the ludicrous arguments regarding the lack of evidence supporting his penectomy in the novels, given GRRM wrote his penectomy explicitly into the episode a few weeks back. Theon definitely, both in the books and series, doesn't have a cock.

[jpreis]

Theon is scared in the first Reek chapter that something worse will be cut off other than his toes or fingers the next time he's punished.

I just reread the first Reek chapter 5-12.

In this chapter Theon recalls that "thus far he had lost two fingers off his left hand and the pinky off his right, but only the little toe off his right foot against three from his left. Sometimes Ramsay would make japes about balancing him out. My lord was only japing, he tried to tell himself. He does not want to hurt me, he told me so, he only does it when I give him cause. His lord was merciful and kind. He might have flayed his face off for some of the things Reek had said, before he’d learned his true name and proper place."

Based on that passage, I don't know how you could reach the conclusion that Theon feared losing "something worse" than fingers or toes. And as you can judge from the context, the phrase "balancing him out" refers only to finger and toes.

By the time he reaches Moat Cailin, he's also lost 'that other thin'g. We don't know exactly how much time has elapsed between both chapters.

But do you admit that it is highly improbable that Theon would be riding a horse to Moat Cailin just after being castrated?

Ramsay would have branded him to cauterise the wound, or cut it off with a heated knife. I admit, though, it's presented in a somewhat unrealistic manner, but there you are.

There's more to it than cauterization. E.g., the urethral opening must be not be allowed to close. Or else a new urinary opening must be created, which requires advanced surgical techniques. Given the apparent rarity of penectomies in Westeros, I doubt that any maester possessed the necessary skills.

It says directly in the text, I can't remember where, that he has been freshly wounded in a similar compromising location before Roose Bolton takes him in. I don't know how much clearer I can be.

I've reread all the chapters you mentioned and don't find any passage that suggests "that he has been freshly wounded in a similar compromising location before Roose Bolton takes him in." There's no direct or indirect reference to any "freshly" wounded area.

Note that Theon's statement to Roose that "I have…wounds" does not imply "fresh" wounds." The term "wounds" can refer to old, healed wounds. And it would make absolutely no sense whatsoever that Theon would riding a horse to Barrow Hall right after his supposed castration.

I don't know how much clearer I can be.

You could simply quote the passages that you think support your conclusions. (And then I can explain to you how those passages do not support your conclusions. LoL)

[The Killer Snark]

I would have to go back over the novel again when I am busy revising a book of poetry and also reading another novel and I simply do not have the time to repeat myself with points that other people, bar myself, have surely come out with before me. Plus, I am on Valium so I just want to crash back and relax. Why not ask George Martin? Theon's missing a penis at the moment but in the series he'll still have to ride to Moat Cailin, and the difficulty he has riding on account of the condition he's in is referenced in the appropriate chapter in the book.

[jpreis]

We can least be agreed on one thing, and put down the ludicrous arguments regarding the lack of evidence supporting his penectomy in the novels, given GRRM wrote his penectomy explicitly into the episode a few weeks back. Theon definitely, both in the books and series, doesn't have a cock.

I believe that the two passages I quoted do support the conclusion that Ramsay cut off Theon's cock. But I do not believe there's any textual evidence of castration.

But as for the show, GRRM does not call the shots. The outline and direction of each scene and episode is dictated, not by GRRM, but by the show's two principal writers and creators. GRRM must conform his writing to their expectations. So if they tell him that Theon is going to be seduced by two naked women who will say much about his cock, and this will lead up to a scene where his cock will be cut off, GRRM cannot deviate from that outline. Do not assume that just because GRRM is credited as a writer of an episode, that GRRM created the outline of that episode, liked the outline or endorsed everything that happened in the episode.

[jpreis]

I would have to go back over the novel again when I am busy revising a book of poetry and also reading another novel and I simply do not have the time to repeat myself with points that other people, bar myself, have surely come out with before me. Plus, I am on Valium so I just want to crash back and relax. Why not ask George Martin? Theon's missing a penis at the moment but in the series he'll still have to ride to Moat Cailin, and the difficulty he has riding on account of the condition he's in is referenced in the appropriate chapter in the book.

The mere fact that other readers might agree with you does not mean all of you are correct.

After reading all 5 books twice, I do not recall any textual evidence of "the difficulty he has riding, on account of the condition he's in". As documented in the text, the "condition he's in" is that he weak from starvation and torture, including the rack, scourging and flaying. Because of his weakness, he has difficulty finding the strength to mount a horse, but there's no mention of difficulty riding a horse.

Why do I need to ask GRRM? I've already read his books. I'm asking you, since you're the one making claims for which you do not, for whatever reason, offer any textual evidence. I've taken the time to quote passages that support my conclusions, but until you are willing to do the same, I don't see any point to continuing this discussion.

[The Killer Snark]

"...but until you was willing to the same..." jpreis, are you perchance related to George Bush? ;D

Heehee, surreptitious typo correction in evidence, but it actually did read "but until you was willing to do the same."

[Hiram McDrogon]

As for the show, the dialogue in the Theon seduction scene went on and on ad nauseam about Theon's "cock" and how everyone in Westeros is supposedly talking about it. It should be "pretty obvious" that the purpose of all that contrived chatter about Theon's amazing penis was to anticipate a penectomy, not a castration. But feel free to speculate that he's also castrated, even though it's "pretty obvious" that that was not where the dialogue was leading.

Eh, whatever. No need to get all snarky with repeating my phrase "pretty obvious." My point above was more in response to "I

doubt that it even occurs to most readers". The speed with which I blasted through DwD probably puts me in the "most readers" category in that I didn't pay too much attention, and it was clear even at that speed that something was amiss with Theon's junk. I didn't particularly care what exactly was amiss and no more looked for details about whether it was the root or the stem (not that I've even sure which is which in Varys's phrase) than I worry about whether it's Brienne's incisors or canine teeth or premolars that are bucked. It didn't seem worth paying attention to, at least not until the Iron Islands produces a constitution saying that the king's son is the rightful heir as long as he possesses testicles, irregardless of whether or not his penis is still there (or vice versa).

[jpreis]

Eh, whatever. No need to get all snarky with repeating my phrase "pretty obvious." My point above was more in response to "I

doubt that it even occurs to most readers". The speed with which I blasted through DwD probably puts me in the "most readers" category in that I didn't pay too much attention, and it was clear even at that speed that something was amiss with Theon's junk. I didn't particularly care what exactly was amiss and no more looked for details about whether it was the root or the stem (not that I've even sure which is which in Varys's phrase) than I worry about whether it's Brienne's incisors or canine teeth or premolars that are bucked. It didn't seem worth paying attention to, at least not until the Iron Islands produces a constitution saying that the king's son is the rightful heir as long as he possesses testicles, irregardless of whether or not his penis is still there (or vice versa).

Your comment is not relevant to the points I made in my comment that you just quoted ("As for the show...that was not where the dialogue was leading"), so I have to wonder why you quoted it. And I don't know why you think I would care whether you consider something "worth paying attention to", which is also completely irrelevant. But "eh, whatever."

[jpreis]

"...but until you was willing to the same..." jpreis, are you perchance related to George Bush? ;D

Heehee, surreptitious typo correction in evidence, but it actually did read "but until you was willing to do the same."

Do you think you deserve a brownie point for bringing a typo to my attention? I think not, since I corrected it without consulting you.

It seems that you're dwelling on an insignificant typo to distract attention from the fact that you still haven't produced any text to support your thesis that Theon is "additionally castrated on top of having his dick cut off to even out his wounds before he's made mock Prince of Winterfell."

You made the excuse that you were too busy writing poetry and reading another book to research the matter. But evidently you're not too busy to take time from your poetry and reading to make an issue about a typo.

You're still running on empty, Killer. Let us know when you find that text.

[The Killer Snark]

jpries - I will, but I'll ask a question, out of personal curiosity. Theon's injuries, which are fresh, take place logically either directly before Moat Cailin or before he's temporarily rescued by Ramsay. He does not receive a penectomy prior to the first Reek chapter in the book: he makes no internal reference to the fact and indeed hints at his fear that something else might go bar his toes and fingers. At what point out of the two options I'm giving you do you believe his dick goes in the bin?

[King in the North Carolina]

All I know is if anyone ever cut off my Famous Cock, I sure wouldn't feel like going horseback riding afterwards.

[jpreis]

All I know is if anyone ever cut off my Famous Cock, I sure wouldn't feel like going horseback riding afterwards.

Yeah, but The Killer Snark is made of much stronger stuff! Cut his cock off today, and he'll ride tomorrow, without so much as a whimper.

[jpreis]

jpries - I will, but I'll ask a question, out of personal curiosity. Theon's injuries, which are fresh, take place logically either directly before Moat Cailin or before he's temporarily rescued by Ramsay. He does not receive a penectomy prior to the first Reek chapter in the book: he makes no internal reference to the fact and indeed hints at his fear that something else might go bar his toes and fingers. At what point out of the two options I'm giving you do you believe his dick goes in the bin?

I'll answer by appealing to reason.

PRELIMINARIES: The first Theon chapters are 5-12, in which Ramsay frees Reek from the dungeon where has be captive for at least half a year, and 5-20, in which Reek rides to war with Ramsay to seize Moat Cailin.

Near the end of 5-12, Ramsay tells Reek "we must take you out of that vile dungeon…scrub you pink again, get you some food to eat…I have a little task for you, and you'll need your strength back if you are to serve me…I ride to war, Reek. And you will be coming with me, to help me fetch my virgin bride."

Ramsay rides to war to seize Moat Cailin from the Ironborn. This is necessary to ensure safe passage of the army of Boltons and Freys that Lord Roose Bolton leads north. Also, Roose brings with him Ramsay's "virgin bride."

If Theon is successful in persuading the Ironborn to surrender the Moat Cailin, Ramsay can seize it without a fight.

Consult a map of the North to see the relative distance Theon must ride with Ramsay to reach the vicinity of Moat Cailin where the Dreadfort men will camp.

CONCLUSION: Given Ramsay's recognition that Theon needs to regain his strength to carry out his role in a task which is critical to the interests of House Bolton, and that Theon must ride a horse to perform his role in this task, it is unreasonable to believe that Ramsay would be subjecting Theon to further torture and maiming before the task is completed.

Therefore, "that other thing" must have been taken before Theon was freed from dungeon.

However, the text suggests that any body parts taken from Theon would have been fed to the dogs, not put in any bin.

ADDITIONAL OBSERVATIONS: In 5-20 Theon rides a stot to Moat Cailin. There is no indication that he has suffered any "fresh injury." If "Reek was uneasy on horseback," it is because "the dungeons had left him weak as an old woman and so thin a strong wind could knock him down." Moreover, it was just "last night" that Reek was "soaking in a tub of scalding water," which also argues against your thesis of a "fresh injury."

(Question: Did Reek ride to war with Ramsay the very next day after he was released from the dungeon? Ramsay did say, "I ride to war", which suggests that he planned to ride as early as the next day.)

In 5-12, Theon is terrified when he cannot remember his name that they had taught him. We read: "If I say it wrong, he'll take another finger, or worse, he'll … he'll … He would not think about that, he could not think about that."

Arguably, "that" which he would not and could not think about was that Ramsay might take his TONGUE if he says his name wrong. Given the context in which "that" appears, it is unreasonable to conclude that it refers to genitalia!

In chapter 5-20, Theon recalls that Ramsay "has only taken toes and fingers and that other thing, when he might have taken my tongue, or peeled the skin off my legs from heel to thigh." The clear implication is that Theon regards the taking of "that other thing" as LESS horrific than the taking of his tongue or being flayed from heel to thigh!

The mere fact that there is no mention of the taking of "that other thing" until the very next Theon chapter (5-20) does not imply that it was not taken before Theon was released from the dungeon in chapter 5-12. The fact that Theon refers to it obliquely as "that other thing" suggests that it's something he'd rather not think of at all, which would explain why he doesn't think of it in 5-12. Furthermore, it is not necessary for 5-12 to itemize all body parts taken before his release from the dungeon.

However, in 5-12 there is a passage that, with the benefit of the hindsight provided by certain passages from 5-20 ("that other thing") and 5-37 ("I .. do you mean ...m'lord, I have no... I ..."), could be understood as the first clue that "that other thing" had previously been taken.

Reek. My name is Reek, it rhymes with bleak.

He had to remember that.

Serve and obey and remember who you are, and no more harm will come to you. He promised, his lordship promised.

Even if he had wanted to resist, he did not have the strength. It had been scourged from him, starved from him, flayed from him. When Little Walder pulled him up and Big Walder waved the torch at him to herd him from the cell, he went along as docile as a dog. If he’d had a tail, he would have tucked it down between his legs.

If I had a tail, the Bastard would have cut it off.

The thought came unbidden, a vile thought, dangerous.

His lordship was not a bastard anymore.

Bolton, not Snow.

The boy king on the Iron Throne had made Lord Ramsay legitimate, giving him the right to use his lord father’s name. Calling him Snow reminded him of his bastardy and sent him into a black rage. Reek must remember that. And his name, he must remember his name.

This passage also suggests that "that other thing" was taken BEFORE Ramsay was made legitimate, which must have happened before Theon was put in the dungeon, where he has been for "half a year at least. That or longer."