Anyone Else Think Selmy Is The Biggest Sell Out Ever For A Knight.

[mrunderhill]

Well only one of them threw a 8 year old boy out of a window, lied to his little brother about his wife being a whore and did nothing as she was gang raped by a whole barracks and was having sex with his sister the queen while he was supposed to be loyal to the King.

I'm not sure what bad things you think that Barristan did but I'm pretty sure to none of them are as bad as what Jaime did. I like Jaime but this desire to act like he was a good guy in the past is amusing.

Jaime was a good guy in the past. He was not a good guy after killing Aerys. Once more he is trying to become a good guy. Joining the Kingsguard for Jaime was what finding out Rhaegar knighted Gregor was for Sandor.

That said Jaime is starting to face his mistakes and make amends. Selmy is still being his same old self.

[A Crow Come Over]

The funny part is that Selmy was really the only one who stayed loyal to Aerys.

Whent, Hightower and Dayne started following Rhaegar.

Lewyn Martell was forced to fight otherwise Aerys would've harmed Elia

Jaime slit Aerys' throat.

Everyone but Selmy saw the ship going down.

[A Crow Come Over]

What's wrong with bending the knee when you've been defeated? Self-preservation and self-interest are things, you know?

Generally those who value self-preservation don't swear oathes to sacrifice their lives for a King.

[mrunderhill]

The funny part is that Selmy was really the only one who stayed loyal to Aerys.

Whent, Hightower and Dayne started following Rhaegar.

Lewyn Martell was forced to fight otherwise Aerys would've harmed Elia

Jaime slit Aerys' throat.

Everyone but Selmy saw the ship going down.

Yes and I respect them more for it. Nothing great about bragging how you stayed loyal to Hitler whilst other generals and nobles tried to kill him several times.

[Blackfish Tully]

Well, that guy was never Dunk's for a start.

I agree with OP though. Barristan is a nice man and all but I think he craves more for honor of being a Kingsguard than living to his vows until the bitter end. He fought well and was wounded at the Trident, but he bent the knee to Robert while Aerys was still in King's Landing and Viserys with him. He was the first to divide the Kingsguard, well before Jaime. While he was serving his new master, the other Kingsguard were either in King's Landing attending the King or in Dorne, following Rhaegar's order.

And he's the first to admit it. If Joffrey hadn't sacked him, he would have served as he always did

You have your timeline completely screwed up . Barristan was wounded nearly to death on the Trident and by the time he was able to get out of bed Aerys was dead , the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy were all dead and Viserys was in exile. All the Lords in the Seven Kingdoms had declared Robert king and bent the knee to him so Barristan had two choices either fall on his sword or join Robert's Kingsguard. He choose the latter and was hoping that Robert was a King worth following.

[LordBloodraven]

Barristan swore a vow to Aerys and came to the brink of death fulfilling that vow. By the time he was recovered Viserys was in exile and Robert was the king. He swore no oaths to Viserys.

The vows are for life. "Le roi est mort, vive le roi", Aerys dies and Viserys becomes king. Selmy was the one who was supposed to exile the children and stay true to his vows. He wasn't, that's not a bad thing per se, but that makes him a sell-out

[LordBloodraven]

You have your timeline completely screwed up . Barristan was wounded nearly to death on the Trident and by the time he was able to get out of bed Aerys was dead , the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy were all dead and Viserys was in exile. All the Lords in the Seven Kingdoms had declared Robert king and bent the knee to him so Barristan had two choices either fall on his sword or join Robert's Kingsguard. He choose the latter and was hoping that Robert was a King worth following.

He was wounded nearly to death, but nothing says that he was unconscious. What makes you think that he was in a coma until after Cersei and Robert's wedding?

[Jarlix]

Won't forgive him for not fighting for Ned that one time. He saw the king's words.

[Blackfish Tully]

Jaime was a good guy in the past. He was not a good guy after killing Aerys. Once more he is trying to become a good guy. Joining the Kingsguard for Jaime was what finding out Rhaegar knighted Gregor was for Sandor.

That said Jaime is starting to face his mistakes and make amends. Selmy is still being his same old self.

I guess you haven't read ADWD? there are some good Barristan chapters in there where he goes through a pretty dramatic change.

[Leif]

Won't forgive him for not fighting for Ned that one time. He saw the king's words.

He'd die for nothing.

[Tenshi]

Well only one of them threw a 8 year old boy out of a window, lied to his little brother about his wife being a whore and did nothing as she was gang raped by a whole barracks and was having sex with his sister the queen while he was supposed to be loyal to the King.

I'm not sure what bad things you think that Barristan did but I'm pretty sure none of them are as bad as what Jaime did. I like Jaime but this desire to act like he was a good guy in the past is amusing.

Barristan Selmy went into Duskendale for Duty, Honor and Glory, to save a king falling into madness, who would soon after decide to burn King's Landing to the ground with every person in it. Whereas Jaime Lannister sacrificed his reputation and lived in shame and disgrace, to stop that act of madness. That was the particular comparison I had in mind - apologies if that was not obvious.

It's a matter of how you see things - I am perfectly clear about what an asshole Jaime used to be. But that does not make me deny the good - an error many people make. To see both sides makes life a lot more interesting.

[Jarlix]

He'd die for nothing.

He was close enough to Cersei to put a sword in her face, or in Joffrey's. He was captain of the Kingsguard, I'm sure he could have ordered them to fight on Ned's behalf. And a knight lives to fight for their king and die if necessary.

[Blackfish Tully]

He was wounded nearly to death, but nothing says that he was unconscious. What makes you think that he was in a coma until after Cersei and Robert's wedding?

I never said anything about being in a coma , but I'm pretty sure he did not join Robert's Kingsguard until after he was able to get out of the "hospital" and by that time Aerys was dead and the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy were dead. You said he bent the knee while Aerys was still in Kings Landing and that just was not possible with the timeline.

[LordBloodraven]

I never said anything about being in a coma , but I'm pretty sure he did not join Robert's Kingsguard until after he was able to get out of the "hospital" and by that time Aerys was dead and the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy were dead. You said he bent the knee while Aerys was still in Kings Landing and that just was not possible with the timeline.

I don't agree with that. Barristan was wounded but alive after the Trident. Hell, even Roose Bolton asked Robert to execute him. He must have been badly wounded but pretty sound. What makes you think that he bent the knee after the sack of King's Landing and the Tower of Joy? Don't you think that he'd bent the knee when he's dragged as a prisoner before Robert surrounded by the high lords?

[CJ McLannister]

He was close enough to Cersei to put a sword in her face, or in Joffrey's. He was captain of the Kingsguard, I'm sure he could have ordered them to fight on Ned's behalf. And a knight lives to fight for their king and die if necessary.

By that time, weren't most of the Kingsguard were Lannister men? And while Robert's letter appointed Ned until the heir came of age, I think the argument could be made that Joffrey was already "of age" enough to overrule that as king.

[Blackfish Tully]

Barristan Selmy went into Duskendale for Duty, Honor and Glory, to save a king falling into madness, who would soon after decide to burn King's Landing to the ground with every person in it. Whereas Jaime Lannister sacrificed his reputation and lived in shame and disgrace, to stop that act of madness. That was the particular comparison I had in mind - apologies if that was not obvious.

It's a matter of how you see things - I am perfectly clear about what an asshole Jaime used to be. But that does not make me deny the good - an error many people make. To see both sides makes life a lot more interesting.

Aerys fell into madness after Duskendale. So you are blaming Barristan for not seeing into the future and anticipating Aerys going crazy and trying to burn Kings Landing to the ground? I've seen people blame Barristan for many things (some fairly and some not) but you are the first person who ever said he is a bad guy for going into Duskendale and saving the King.

[Jarlix]

Barristan Selmy went into Duskendale for Duty, Honor and Glory, to save a king falling into madness, who would soon after decide to burn King's Landing to the ground with every person in it. Whereas Jaime Lannister sacrificed his reputation and lived in shame and disgrace, to stop that act of madness. That was the particular comparison I had in mind - apologies if that was not obvious.

It's a matter of how you see things - I am perfectly clear about what an asshole Jaime used to be. But that does not make me deny the good - an error many people make. To see both sides makes life a lot more interesting.

How was Jaime an asshole? He stopped madness. He sees how fallacious the world they live in is and probably would not think too badly of democracy. Kingslaying isn't bad by our standards, it is by theirs. To me the stigma he deals with is subliminal message about how the other 'asshole' things he does might only be bad because we see it that way culturally. Incest has many downsides and even if allowed in a society, should draw lines they obviously overstepped (like breeding) but Jaime's whole character is about making you reassess your morality.

He needed to chuck Bran out the window or else Robert's warhammer would've been caved in his balls. He loves his sister and was in a very difficult position regarding Robert being a piss drunk fool, Cersei wanting what she wants, there being no abortions in Westeros and the Targaryens are a ripe bit of poor social programming promotion themselves since they heralded incest as a breeding method.

He's just a realist in a lot of shitty situations.

[Jarlix]

By that time, weren't most of the Kingsguard were Lannister men? And while Robert's letter appointed Ned until the heir came of age, I think the argument could be made that Joffrey was already "of age" enough to overrule that as king.

I suppose I don't know how hierarchical overruling stands to scrutiny with a letter like that. I just figured Barristan would've not stood for that injustice in the long term. He understands Ned in trade as a man of honour. Honour in Westeros is sort of code for 'believable.' A man can pay for the authenticity of his words in his heroic deeds and honour. I feel like Barristan don't give two shits so long as he's serving.

[Blackfish Tully]

I don't agree with that. Barristan was wounded but alive after the Trident. Hell, even Roose Bolton asked Robert to execute him. He must have been badly wounded but pretty sound. What makes you think that he bent the knee after the sack of King's Landing and the Tower of Joy? Don't you think that he'd bent the knee when he's dragged as a prisoner before Robert surrounded by the high lords?

For Barristan to bend the knee to Robert as a member of his Kingsguard then Robert would have to be King and I'm pretty sure that they waited till Robert was in Kings Landing before they annointed him King. By the time Robert arrived in Kings Landing Aerys was already dead.

[CJ McLannister]

there being no abortions in Westeros

This is not accurate.