Bright Blue Eyes Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 How can you say that after reading his POV in ADWD? It took lot of balls to throw the King into chains and take over the government of Mereen.He is the furthest away you can be from being a coward but I'll agree that he is a bit of a glory hound but that seems to be a common trait in most of the Knights of Westeroes.He is one of the few knights who actually cares about the people in his charge and tries to protect them. Take your blinders off and do a reread of his chapters in ADWD and you might come to a different view of him.I said emotional coward and focused on moral decisions. The only moral decision Barristan faced in Meereen was if it's legitimate to throw a guy into prison who most likely, but not 100% guaranted, tried to kill his queen.But yes, he is improving somewhat. Doesn't change his history though.Well only one of them threw a 8 year old boy out of a window, lied to his little brother about his wife being a whore and did nothing as she was gang raped by a whole barracks and was having sex with his sister the queen while he was supposed to be loyal to the King.I'm not sure what bad things you think that Barristan did but I'm pretty sure none of them are as bad as what Jaime did. I like Jaime but this desire to act like he was a good guy in the past is amusing.Standing by when Aerys raped Rhaella. Standing by when Aerys shat on justice. Standing by when Cersei shat on the laws. By and large, Barristan is an enabler. And worse, he isn't an enabler out of fear, but because he considers serving monsters morally better than standing up for justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarlix Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 This is not accurate.oh yeah. That drug Maesters give. I forgot. Moon Tea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 He was close enough to Cersei to put a sword in her face, or in Joffrey's. He was captain of the Kingsguard, I'm sure he could have ordered them to fight on Ned's behalf. And a knight lives to fight for their king and die if necessary.That would make him a traitor and he'd get 15 swords in his back before he could blink. They weren't Barristan's men, they were Cersei's. That's why they laughed at their Lord Commander when he was being removed from the KG. Ned wasn't his king, if anything his duty was to die for Aerys, Robert, or Joffrey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucky Baratheon Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 He is not a sellout. He served the crown. He served the Targaeryens, and when Robert won the crown he served Robert. The Lannisters forced him out of the KG so he returned to the Targs (Dany) who his heart may have been with the whole time. I think he is trying his best to do what he thinks is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordBloodraven Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 For Barristan to bend the knee to Robert as a member of his Kingsguard then Robert would have to be King and I'm pretty sure that they waited till Robert was in Kings Landing before they annointed him King. By the time Robert arrived in Kings Landing Aerys was already dead.Robert was proclaimed king just after the Trident, most of the lords of Rhaegar's army bent the knee after the battle although Mace Tyrell, Paxter Redwyne and the Dornishmen bent the knee way after the Sack."Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat, let him be king over ashes". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarlix Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 That would make him a traitor and he'd get 15 swords in his back before he could blink. They weren't Barristan's men, they were Cersei's. That's why they laughed at their Lord Commander when he was being removed from the KG. Ned wasn't his king, if anything his duty was to die for Aerys, Robert, or Joffrey.Mm, wonder if it would've been a smart and conniving play to have the note contain the Baratheon lineage line and why Joffrey is not truly king, and tell him to not tell anyone about it and act flustered by the note itself and rip it up. Then Barristan could just slit the kid's throat in the few days he has around him when no one's looking. Ned would never do that though and I'm not sure how well Barristan would follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordBloodraven Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 He is not a sellout. He served the crown. He served the Targaeryens, and when Robert won the crown he served Robert. The Lannisters forced him out of the KG so he returned to the Targs (Dany) who his heart may have been with the whole time. I think he is trying his best to do what he thinks is right.He didn't have much choice but he's kind of a sell-out though, not the worse but there are truer men than him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottle cap Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 Selmy is a moral coward. He fought for a king he knew was mad, and betrayed Ned,, by not defending him, when he knew the truth. He is good with a sword and values 'honour' but patently cannot think for himself, he admits at much during the siege of Meereen. He has no right to judge Jamie for killing Aerys, undoubtably the right choice, and is hypocritical to J Mormont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrunderhill Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 I guess you haven't read ADWD? there are some good Barristan chapters in there where he goes through a pretty dramatic change.He is starting to change, but even then deciding to arrest a man, who attempted to assassinate the Queen is not a hard moral decision. It is a straight forward one. If say he had proof Margaery killed Joffrey he would probably try and arrest her too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 I said emotional coward and focused on moral decisions. The only moral decision Barristan faced in Meereen was if it's legitimate to throw a guy into prison who most likely, but not 100% guaranted, tried to kill his queen.But yes, he is improving somewhat. Doesn't change his history though.Standing by when Aerys raped Rhaella. Standing by when Aerys shat on justice. Standing by when Cersei shat on the laws. By and large, Barristan is an enabler. And worse, he isn't an enabler out of fear, but because he considers serving monsters morally better than standing up for justice.Barristan was put in an impossible position because of how screwed up the Kingsguard situation is .He was a idealistice young man when he joined and Jaehaerys was a good King and serving the Kingguard in that time was a great honor.When Aerys went mad Barristan was put in a very difficult place . Did he forsake his vows and dam himself to the Seven Hells and kill Aerys or does he fullfill his vows and hope that things would get better. Blaming Barristan for Aerys madness seems unfair to me but everybody will have to judge for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amadeo78 Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 Barristan, Ned and Jamie are three different examples of actions determining fate where honor is concerned. Barristan chose honor and had to live with being unsure if he did the right thing. Ned chose honor and died for it. Jamie did what he thought was right and lived "without honor". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarlix Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 Barristan was put in an impossible position because of how screwed up the Kingsguard situation is .He was a idealistice young man when he joined and Jaehaerys was a good King and serving the Kingguard in that time was a great honor.When Aerys went mad Barristan was put in a very difficult place . Did he forsake his vows and dam himself to the Seven Hells and kill Aerys or does he fullfill his vows and hope that things would get better. Blaming Barristan for Aerys madness seems unfair to me but everybody will have to judge for themselves.Maybe madness should be one of few things that disqualify a king and make the crown pass to the next in line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 He is starting to change, but even then deciding to arrest a man, who attempted to assassinate the Queen is not a hard moral decision. It is a straight forward one. If say he had proof Margaery killed Joffrey he would probably try and arrest her too.Barristan had no idea if it was the King that tried to assassinate the Queen, We as the reader have no idea who tried to murder Dany so it's not as straight forward as you make it. It also wasn't just arresting the King but also he took over the government and is planning an attack on the enemy so he has changed a great deal since the days of Aerys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrunderhill Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 Barristan was put in an impossible position because of how screwed up the Kingsguard situation is .He was a idealistice young man when he joined and Jaehaerys was a good King and serving the Kingguard in that time was a great honor.When Aerys went mad Barristan was put in a very difficult place . Did he forsake his vows and dam himself to the Seven Hells and kill Aerys or does he fullfill his vows and hope that things would get better. Blaming Barristan for Aerys madness seems unfair to me but everybody will have to judge for themselves.However, his actions are in my opinion the least honourable out of the other Kingsguard with the possible exception of Darry.Then to make matters worse he accepts Robert as the new king. This is not too bad in my opinion, since everyone would think Robert would be a good king. Selmy fought bravely until the end and Robert was merciful. The real problem comes when Joffrey dismisses him as a member of the Kingsguard. Since he has served Robert, has no clue about the incest, he should take his dismissal with as much honour as he can. Instead he runs off and joins Dany. If he truly believed the Targaryens were the rightful rulers then what was he doing serving Robert for all those years? It seems being a member of the Kingsguard was all he had, he gave up everything for it and when Joffrey took it away from him tried to justify his betrayal by claiming Dany was the rightful ruler.In the end it's his personal honour he cared about more than anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrunderhill Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 Barristan had no idea if it was the King that tried to assassinate the Queen, We as the reader have no idea who tried to murder Dany so it's not as straight forward as you make it. It also wasn't just arresting the King but also he took over the government and is planning an attack on the enemy so he has changed a great deal since the days of Aerys.Barristan is pretty sure it was the King and Barristan is loyal to Dany. When he acts against a "mad" (not saying she is, but if she were to become mad) Dany then I would think he changed. He sees himself as acting in the best interest of Dany and still being loyal to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 Maybe madness should be one of few things that disqualify a king and make the crown pass to the next in line.So it's Barristan's decision as a member of the Kingsguard as to who should and who shouldn't be King? Do you want Boros Blount or Kettleback making that decision? It should be up to the rest of the High Lords to make that decision and it seems like they were working on it with Rhaegar when everything went to hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UVA Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 Love Barristan as a character and people compare him as being somwhat noble as Ned. However in my view is Selmy is a bit of a Oppertunist when it comes to serving the so called crown.Eh, the character that comes closest to Ned is Davos. I don't think Selmy is an opportunist per se rather he is the embodiment of thinking and believing one thing (he was appalled by the murders of Aegon and Rhaenys) and acting quite differently. I mean he remained in the service of the king who condoned the murders. It's only until Mereeen do we see him taking risks on the basis of doing what he believes to be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrunderhill Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 So it's Barristan's decision as a member of the Kingsguard as to who should and who shouldn't be King? Do you want Boros Blount or Kettleback making that decision? It should be up to the rest of the High Lords to make that decision and it seems like they were working on it with Rhaegar when everything went to hell.There comes a point, though where enough is enough. Everyone has to justify when this point is reached. For Jaime, it was ordering him to kill Tywin and sitting back whilst letting Kings Landing burning. It's a tough decision but sometimes you have to realise the law is wrong and stand against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djinn Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 Sellout, no. A little naive and self-deluded, yes. But GRRM clearly wishes to point out this by offering the contrast of Areo Hotah and Jaime Lannister. Jaime clearly thinks about what's he's doing in his job (not always makes the right decision) and Areo clearly takes the unthinking stance. Barristan is somewhere in the middle, he believes that he takes things into consideration and then just follows automatically his duties. He lacks self-awareness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrunderhill Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 Sellout, no. A little naive and self-deluded, yes. But GRRM clearly wishes to point out this by offering the contrast of Areo Hotah and Jaime Lannister. Jaime clearly thinks about what's he's doing in his job (not always makes the right decision) and Areo clearly takes the unthinking stance. Barristan is somewhere in the middle, he believes that he takes things into consideration and then just follows automatically his duties. He lacks self-awareness.Then why did he go and join Dany after his dismissal? He had no real reason to betray the regime? His actions remind me a lot of Fireball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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