If the Freys supported Robb, who would have ruled now?

[juanml82]

Why wouldn't Robb believe that Joffery isn't a child of incest? Its makes Joffery and the Lannisters claim to the IT false, which could only help Robb and his cause.

But that's not believing. That's using it as propaganda. Believing would be "Oh, Stannis says they are bastards, which benefits him, and I have no evidence, but I think he's right"

Ned had reason to believe him because he had uncovered that truth as well, but Robb didn't and has no way of knowing Ned did.

Even more, if Stannis knew all along and that investigation is the reason Jon Arryn and Ned Stark were murdered while Stannis grinded his teeth in Dragonstone, wouldn't Robb (and even more, Cat) want to see Stannis head in pike?

I can imagine a scenario where Robb and Stannis are working together to bring justice to the realm. However I don't see Stannis allowing the north to keep their independence, but I belive they could work something out without bloodshed. I think that Robb desires justice and his sisters back more than independence for the north. The Starks keeping Winterfell and being Wardens of the North, along with a grateful Stannis sitting on the IT sounds like a pretty good deal to me (With Lannister heads rotting on pikes on the walls of the Red Keep ofcorse).

Well, Robb died before Joffrey, so we can't know what exactly he'd do once "Joffrey's head in a pike" isn't workable anymore because Joffrey is growing daysies. About his sisters... well, I don't know. He wants to have them released, that's for sure. But they are not his priority, otherwise he would have traded Jaime for them.

And the other matter is that Stannis doesn't bring anything to the table, other than some dubious legitimacy. And, as the GreatJon said "It was the dragons we bent, and the dragons are no more". Stannis has no dragons, so why Robb is going to be "The Second King who kneeled"? Had Stannis travelled north with 25,000 men, then he is bringing something to the table of negotiations.

If anything, Stannis arriving north post PW brings the opportunity to secure Northern independence, by negotiating with Tywin independence for the delivery of Stannis. And it might not be treachery in Robb's part, because he should make sure Stannis isn't getting out of the Wall and should also send forces to capture his ships, just in case.

[Leman Russ]

Believing would be "Oh, Stannis says they are bastards, which benefits him, and I have no evidence, but I think he's right"

Wouldn't that benefit Robb as well? I don't see Robb asking for much proof that Joff is a child of incest. It helps Robb's and the North's cause by weakening Jofferys claim to the throne. What does it matter if its propaganda or not?

Even more, if Stannis knew all along and that investigation is the reason Jon Arryn and Ned Stark were murdered while Stannis grinded his teeth in Dragonstone, wouldn't Robb (and even more, Cat) want to see Stannis head in pike?

That a possibility. I would like to think that Robb is more reasonable than that however. What was Stannis supposed to do? Die like Jon Aryan and Ned. He was gathering his forces at Dragonstone, he intended to do something with them surely.

Well, Robb died before Joffrey, so we can't know what exactly he'd do once "Joffrey's head in a pike" isn't workable anymore because Joffrey is growing daysies.

I thought we were assuming that Robb doesn't die? Im sorry im not trying to be difficult im just having a hard time figuring out what you mean here. This whole thread is about a hypothetical so why cant we speculate?

About his sisters... well, I don't know. He wants to have them released, that's for sure. But they are not his priority, otherwise he would have traded Jaime for them.

Fair point. Although if he gave up Jamie, he would have even had a less of a chance to win the war. What would be the point of having his sister return to him if he cant win the war. They would probably all end up in a dungeon in Kings Landing anyway.

And the other matter is that Stannis doesn't bring anything to the table, other than some dubious legitimacy

What's dubious about Stannis' legitimacy? We, as the readers, know that Stannis is the rightful king by law. Robb might think it dubious, but like I said I don't think Robb would need much convincing that Joffery is not Bobs son. Also, stannis is a pretty talented Battle commander by anyones standards I would think. Heck, even Tywin fears him. Even if he showed up at Winterfell by himself, he would have had much to offer with his experience and knowledge as a commander. Imagine Stannis at the head of the Northern armies with Robb stark and Davos as his sexond in command. He would be unstoppable.

[Batman]

Before or after Robb spit in their face?

[juanml82]

Wouldn't that benefit Robb as well? I don't see Robb asking for much proof that Joff is a child of incest. It helps Robb's and the North's cause by weakening Jofferys claim to the throne. What does it matter if its propaganda or not?

For the war effort, it doesn't. But it means Robb is support Stannis out of convenience, not honour. In such an scenario, he isn't acting like Ned, doing what's honorable. Which is fine, it's just that it isn't honor what's motivating him.

And since it's not, the issue is whether supporting Stannis is convenient, which raises the point of Northern independence or not. Can Stannis put something in the table that makes bending the knee worthwhile?

That a possibility. I would like to think that Robb is more reasonable than that however. What was Stannis supposed to do? Die like Jon Aryan and Ned. He was gathering his forces at Dragonstone, he intended to do something with them surely

.Answer Ned's ravens perhaps. Anyways, it's not about what Stannis could do but about what Robb believes Stannis could have done for Ned and didn't. I do think Robb is more reasonable than that. Cat, when her feelings get in her way, it's not.

I thought we were assuming that Robb doesn't die? Im sorry im not trying to be difficult im just having a hard time figuring out what you mean here. This whole thread is about a hypothetical so why cant we speculate?

Right, what I mean is that Robb's aims, besides Northern Independence, would be a matter of speculation had he survived beyond the PW. He didn't really care for the Iron Throne so, ideologically, Stannis vs. Tommen would cause him to shrug.

What's dubious about Stannis' legitimacy? We, as the readers, know that Stannis is the rightful king by law. Robb might think it dubious, but like I said I don't think Robb would need much convincing that Joffery is not Bobs son. Also, stannis is a pretty talented Battle commander by anyones standards I would think. Heck, even Tywin fears him. Even if he showed up at Winterfell by himself, he would have had much to offer with his experience and knowledge as a commander. Imagine Stannis at the head of the Northern armies with Robb stark and Davos as his sexond in command. He would be unstoppable.

Well, commanders can do as much. The North would be outnumbered for a while and already facing a war in multiple fronts.

[otherbeef]

the only thing that could've saved Robb was if he abandoned the Riverlands and held on long enough until Winter came, forcing the Tyrells/Lannisters to wait until spring to win back the North.

[GallowsKnight]

So the Freys accept Edmure's marriage and rejoin the fold without any Red Wedding. Okay...

Robb takes back the moat via his plan and it being undermanned by Victarion returning to new of Balon's death. The Blackfish and Riverlords dig in for some long sieges. Robb goes about investigating Winterfell and liberating castles from Ironborn.

Now the question is does Stannis consider burning Edric now that Robb doesn't die? I think it's less likely (unless Robb dies from an Ironborn arrow or some further treachery). So therefore does Stannis come to save the wall? Does he do it before Robb? Now I think he might still do it and beat Robb there with the timing as he's got the advantage of travelling by ship.

If Stannis has saved the Wall then Robb's probably going to be on better terms with him. Davos and Jon are going to have to do their best to unite the two of them. Robb can garrison the wall with Northerners and rally the Mountain clans, the Manderlys and countless other bannermen.

If the Ironborn and Aegon still invade the Reach and Stormlands respectively then I can see a Robb/Stannis force coming south in Winter to relieve the Riverlands and continue fighting. Especially if Tyrion still ends up killing Tywin.

But who knows?

the only thing that could've saved Robb was if he abandoned the Riverlands and held on long enough until Winter came, forcing the Tyrells/Lannisters to wait until spring to win back the North.

At that point it appears like that. But things quickly spiral out of control for the Lannister/Tyrells with Tywin and Kevan's deaths, along with Ironborn invasions of the Reach and the Golden company in the Stormlands, trouble brewing in Dorne, etc.

[otherbeef]

At that point it appears like that. But things quickly spiral out of control for the Lannister/Tyrells with Tywin and Kevan's deaths, along with Ironborn invasions of the Reach and the Golden company in the Stormlands, trouble brewing in Dorne, etc.

if the Lannisters/Tyrells wait that long, if they invade right after Robb is on his way to return North then he is basically screwed, although the Ironborn continuing to invade the Reach would ironically help out Robb immensely.

[GallowsKnight]

if the Lannisters/Tyrells wait that long, if they invade right after Robb is on his way to return North then he is basically screwed, although the Ironborn continuing to invade the Reach would ironically help out Robb immensely.

It's pretty much what happens anyway though. Jaime leads an army to pacify the Riverlands and what does he find? All the lords holed up in Castles. Now most surrender because the Lannister/Tyrells/Freys have hostages and with Robb dead their resistance is useless. But in this scenario all Rivverun, Seagards, Raventree etc have to do is what until Robb can come South with reinforcements. But before that occurs the invasion of the Reach and Stormlands may happen.

[Leman Russ]

For the war effort, it doesn't. But it means Robb is support Stannis out of convenience, not honour. In such an scenario, he isn't acting like Ned, doing what's honorable. Which is fine, it's just that it isn't honor what's motivating him.

And since it's not, the issue is whether supporting Stannis is convenient, which raises the point of Northern independence or not. Can Stannis put something in the table that makes bending the knee worthwhile?

Well, for all robb knows, he is rebelling against the rightful king. Yes, he has more than enough reasons to but is that honorable? Im not sure. I think Robb can put aside his Honor for victory. Heck, he did it for lust so why not?

.Answer Ned's ravens perhaps. Anyways, it's not about what Stannis could do but about what Robb believes Stannis could have done for Ned and didn't. I do think Robb is more reasonable than that. Cat, when her feelings get in her way, it's not.

I think Stannis knew better than to answer Ned's' letters as they surely would have been intercepted by Cerci or one of her lackeys. But yes I agree with you here as well. (especially about cat)

Right, what I mean is that Robb's aims, besides Northern Independence, would be a matter of speculation had he survived beyond the PW. He didn't really care for the Iron Throne so, ideologically, Stannis vs. Tommen would cause him to shrug.

I think Robb would benefit more with a grateful Stannis on the IT rather than Tommen Lannister. Sure hes all nice and likes to play with cats now but what happends when he gets older? He is a Lannister after all.

Well, commanders can do as much. The North would be outnumbered for a while and already facing a war in multiple fronts.

True enough, though I think the northerners would have had a better time with Stannis (as their king) and Robb (as their Lord) leading them rather than just Robb. Stannis has been in worse situations and came out alive and even victorious. Stannis is an accomplished commander, that can more than make up for any lack of manpower he has.