Could This Dragon Be A Real Wolf?

[Lord of Beyond the Wall]

Because Ned's affections for Ashara were known and he returned from Starfall with a bastard child?

I was referring to Barristan Selmy phrase. It's incredible how people try to discard any thought of Ned Stark actually having sex with a woman he liked. I do believe that Ned and Ashara had an affair and that relationship produce a child, the point of this threat is WHAT IF that child is (F)Aegon, what are the consequences of that?

[Twookus Stark]

Agreed. and her grieving for the man who had dishonored her could be for Ned who had just lost his sister

[Lord of Beyond the Wall]

wait... what did Cersei say? Can anyone provide the quote? I don't recall seeing that one.

Well, maybe teased is not the right world. In AGOT when Ned confronted Cersei about the incest and she try to seduce him. The copy of AGOT that i have is in Spanish:

"—Honor —escupió ella—. ¿Cómo os atrevéis a jugar al noble señor conmigo? ¿Por quién me tomáis? Vos también tenéis un bastardo, lo he visto. ¿Quién era la madre? ¿Alguna campesina de Dorne a la que violasteis mientras sus campos ardían? ¿Alguna prostituta? ¿O la hermana de luto, esa tal Lady Ashara? Me han dicho que luego se tiró al mar. ¿Por qué fue? ¿Por el hermano que le matasteis o por el hijo que le robasteis? Decidme, mi honorable Lord Eddard, ¿por qué os creéis diferente de Robert, o de mí, o de Jaime?"

-Honor she spat. How dare you play the noble lord with me? Who do you take me? You also have a bastard, I've seen. Who was the mother? Any farmer of Dorne to which you rape while burning their fields? Any prostitute? Or the sister of mourning, such as Lady Ashara? I've been told that she threw to the sea. Why was it? For her brother that you killed her or the son who you stole from her? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, why do you think your're different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"

Sorry if the traduction is not exact.

[Lord of Beyond the Wall]

Agreed. and her grieving for the man who had dishonored her could be for Ned who had just lost his sister

And killed her brother...don't forget about that.

[Twookus Stark]

Ya and thats why she killed herself cu i dont believe she's lemore

[Trinton07]

Suggests that the person who dishonored her is dead at the time of her suicide. That would rule out Ned.

Wait wait. The quote said she grieved for the man who had dishonored her. Have you considered that she was grieving cuz she could not be with that man, because the man was now married? Seems logical to me. Ned is certainly not ruled out.

Also, I can't find the quote, but doesn't Cat once reflect on how Ned was like, solemn and dutiful on their wedding night? Why would that be, if not because he didn't want the marriage, and was in love with another? Cat was by all accounts beautiful, Ned should be excited. But he's not, because he slept with Ashara and now he won't be able to be with her. Gives credence to the theory, although to be honest im not positive if that quote is even from the book. Could've been the tv show. Point is theres no reason to totally rule out Ned.

If you're arguing that Ned had a child with Ashara or carried on some love affair, I don't think it's unfair to ask why he never thinks of her, not at all. All of the Ashara talk comes from everyone BUT Ned.

Please bro. Ned never once has a single thought about Jon not being his son, but everyone believes that theory. You can't claim that Ned's lack of thoughts on something is evidence against that thing. If he had any thoughts that contradict the Ashara theory, then you could use that as evidence. Like the fact that he thinks of Rhagear in a positive light being evidence to R+L=J being consensual.

[jenerationx]

There's not a single piece of evidence that show any kind of link between Brandon and Ashara, none. On the other hand, the rumor of a relationship between Ned and Ashara is hinted a lot in the books.

Yes, I believe there is. There is the fact that, of the two brothers, Brandon is the ONLY we one we know for sure talked to her. He was the one who asked Ashara to dance with Ned. There actually isn't any indication of what Ashara felt for Ned at all. We all *assume* she and Ned liked each other because of what we read into the various rumors and stories (of the tourney at Harrenhal), but if you actually look more closely, you'll see that it's not there. I'm not trying to say it's absolutely not true, it still could be, but I myself was floored when I realized how much I had assumed vs what I'd actually been told.

Everybody is reading too much into one phrase. The affair between Ned and Ashara has been hinted by Edric Dayne (who is telling the story that his aunt Alliria Dayne has told him), Harwin told Arya that in Winterfell that story was known even Cat hear about it, Cersei teased Ned Stark about the exact same thing. How is something that never happen is so wildly believed as true?

It's not just one phrase. We learn in ADWD that the Ned/Ashara rumor was perhaps even more shaky than previously thought. I think previously many of us were convinced that he and Ashara had some kind of thing; what we learn in ADWD creates some skepticism there. Not only that, we learn a *lot* more about Brandon's personality. Previous to ADWD, I always imagined him as some sort of vague vanilla version of Ned, just overall bland. In fact, we learn in ADWD that he was actually kind of a dickhead. His affair with Barbrey Dustin and her recollections of him certainly speak of a man who was extremely sure of himself (arrogant), and he liked sexual conquests, particularly of maidens. (Now, I acknowledge that her words could just be the bitter tirade of a spurned woman, but it's "evidence" that we have to work with.)

I do think that the man who dishonored her at Harrenhal was a Stark -- the reasoning for which I agree with VaramyrSixchins, though I also think it's vague enough that there could potentially be an alternate reading but it's just not as logical to me -- and given their personalities, it is a much stronger prospect that Brandon, the man who talked to Ashara (and for whom she agreed to dance with Ned), was the one who dishonored her, rather than the "shy wolf," Ned. We *assume* that Brandon asked Ashara to dance with Ned because Ned liked her, but it doesn't actually say that. It just says he was shy, period. That doesn't have to mean that he was shy because he liked Ashara; he was shy because he was shy. That's all we can take from what's actually said. And again, we don't know how Ashara felt. She might have been attracted to the brash, older Stark brother, and so when he approached her to dance with his little brother, she did it.

[Lord of Beyond the Wall]

Why did Brando talked to Ashara? To ask her to dance with Ned who was too shy to give the first step. If Brandon was interested that Ned get close to Ashara why would he go and sleep with the woman that his brother liked?...That doesn't make any sense.

[Twookus Stark]

Ok so Brandon talked to Ashara. Are you suggesting that Ned and Ashara were completely silent the whole time they danced?

[jenerationx]

Why did Brando talked to Ashara? To ask her to dance with Ned who was too shy to give the first step. If Brandon was interested that Ned get close to Ashara why would he go and sleep with the woman that his brother liked?...That doesn't make any sense.

I already said... because he was a dickhead. :P I can't pretend to guess at why he'd do it. Maybe he liked to tease Ned? And then later decided he wanted Ashara for himself? Or maybe Ashara, who liked Brandon, threw herself at him? I have no idea.

Ok so Brandon talked to Ashara. Are you suggesting that Ned and Ashara were completely silent the whole time they danced?

Nah, absolutely not. Is it impossible though? No. Music can be pretty loud and Ned was shy. But anyway, my point was that *in the text*, they are the only ones we know for *sure* talked. The OP had said there was no link between them whatsoever, and that's what I was disputing.

Everything we think we know about Ned and Ashara comes from someone else's story/assumptions about them. On reread, it is amazing, as I said, to notice that we are not actually told any of that. We assume it. It's kind of neat trick on GRRM's part. But as I said in my post above, I'm not saying it's impossible that they did have a thing, as many of us have suspected at some point. I'm just saying that since ADWD, I've gotten a lot more skeptical.

[Lord of Beyond the Wall]

Well, in the text is been said that Lady Allyria Dayne has told stories about her sister Ashara being in love with Ned Stark.

[jenerationx]

Yeah, everyone saw them dancing together, so they jumped to the same conclusions we did. I'm just saying those conclusions are not necessarily correct.

[Pod The Impaler]

There's not a single piece of evidence that show any kind of link between Brandon and Ashara, none. On the other hand, the rumor of a relationship between Ned and Ashara is hinted a lot in the books.

Yes, exactly.

Yes, I believe there is. There is the fact that, of the two brothers, Brandon is the ONLY we one we know for sure talked to her. He was the one who asked Ashara to dance with Ned. There actually isn't any indication of what Ashara felt for Ned at all. We all *assume* she and Ned liked each other because of what we read into the various rumors and stories (of the tourney at Harrenhal), but if you actually look more closely, you'll see that it's not there. ...

It's not just one phrase. We learn in ADWD that the Ned/Ashara rumor was perhaps even more shaky than previously thought. I think previously many of us were convinced that he and Ashara had some kind of thing; what we learn in ADWD creates some skepticism there. Not only that, we learn a *lot* more about Brandon's personality.

I do think that the man who dishonored her at Harrenhal was a Stark -- the reasoning for which I agree with VaramyrSixchins, though I also think it's vague enough that there could potentially be an alternate reading but it's just not as logical to me -- and given their personalities, it is a much stronger prospect that Brandon, the man who talked to Ashara (and for whom she agreed to dance with Ned), was the one who dishonored her, rather than the "shy wolf," Ned. We *assume* that Brandon asked Ashara to dance with Ned because Ned liked her, but it doesn't actually say that. It just says he was shy, period. That doesn't have to mean that he was shy because he liked Ashara; he was shy because he was shy. That's all we can take from what's actually said. And again, we don't know how Ashara felt. She might have been attracted to the brash, older Stark brother, and so when he approached her to dance with his little brother, she did it.

There is nothing to suggest Brandon elbowed-aside Ned and took her himself. The phrase used in the book states that Brandon was not shy about taking what he wanted - but what his brother clearly wanted ? I read it as bold Brandon encouraging shy Ned to actually go make a pass at the girl he liked. Brotherly encouragement is not so strange. Or perhaps if Ned was too shy, maybe Brandon walked over to Ashara and told her his younger brother wanted to dance with her but was too shy to ask. Either way, it's more likely Brandon tried to get the two of them together.

[Myrgirl]

Quote

...mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at

Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a

knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No

good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty,

might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

I haven't read the book but from reading this I do not get that the man who dishonored her is dead. It seems to me that "perhaps" she was still grieving for the man himself who dishonored her (as though she had loved him but he didn't come thru for her) or grieving over the rape/dishonor itself.

As for the last part, I think he is saying he's unsure that even if he had won the tournament she would have noticed him. Seems like no matter what, she was in love with the Stark. But that doesn't mean that a Stark did the dishonor or that a Stark returned her love.

[jenerationx]

There is nothing to suggest Brandon elbowed-aside Ned and took her himself.

This assumes Ned wanted her at all. There's actually nothing in the text that proves this, other than rumors and us making assumptions. That doesn't mean it's wrong, but it is not fact that Ned wanted Ashara at all.

I read it as bold Brandon encouraging shy Ned to actually go make a pass at the girl he liked.

Yes! That is how we all read it! But again, it is an assumption we made -- and it's one GRRM led us to -- but it is not concrete evidence that that was the case at all (Ned liking Ashara). The rest of what you say, I don't dispute. I absolutely read it that way initially as well. It wasn't until ADWD, and coming to the forums, that I realized (through another discussion on this same topic) that a whole other thing could have been going on, and nothing in the text disputes it. I believe that is why so many people now believe that Brandon, and not Ned, was the Stark brother who dishonored Ashara.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Ned never thinks of Ashara. But Catelyn does. She remembers hearing the rumors about Ned and Ashara around Winterfell. Ned shoots her down hard. She never hears about the rumors again. That means Ned talked to the servants and made them shut about it. If there wasn't truth to the rumors, why such a strong reaction?

[jenerationx]

Why the strong reaction when Robert brings up Wylla? They can't BOTH be Jon's mothers.

Ned was extremely strict about never, ever talking about Jon's mother, not even rumors.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Now one thing. I don't think the "but POVX never thinks of Y therefore Z doesn't exist" argument is valid.

We're not in their heads 24 hours a day. Someone is choosing which moments we see to tell us a story. That is Martin. So if he wants to conceal something in order to hide it from us, he can and will.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Why the strong reaction when Robert brings up Wylla? They can't BOTH be Jon's mothers.

Ned was extremely strict about never, ever talking about Jon's mother, not even rumors.

Good point about Wylla.

I failed to clarify myself about Ashara. I meant that there was probably truth about the rumors of an affair. I don't think she was Jon's mother, but Cat obviously came to that conclusion. Her suspicion that his mother was highborn might have been the reason she feared Jon so much. Bastards with a highborn mother are more likely to be legitimized or fight to be legitimized than bastards with common mothers.

[jenerationx]

I failed to clarify myself about Ashara. I meant that there was probably truth about the rumors of an affair. I don't think she was Jon's mother, but Cat obviously came to that conclusion. Her suspicion that his mother was highborn might have been the reason she feared Jon so much. Bastards with a highborn mother are more likely to be legitimized or fight to be legitimized than bastards with common mothers.

Yeah... I definitely don't think it's impossible that they (Ned and Ashara) did love each other and/or have an affair.

It's just that ADWD opened up the possibility that it could have gone down differently from what we all assumed (not for SURE that it did, mind you). It made me believe in the possibility that it was Brandon who Ashara had the fling with. I mean, there's nothing overt that says that, at all. This is purely on the basis of two things: 1) Realizing that we don't know with absolute certainty that our assumptions about Ned/Ashara are correct based just on what's in the text; and 2) the personalities involved, meaning mainly Ned and Brandon, since we don't know Ashara very well. Ned we know for an upstanding, honorable guy. Brandon, as we learn, is kind of an arrogant jerk who likes sexual conquests, particularly of maidens. Then put that together with a dishonored Ashara and, to me at least, there's a definite possibility that I was led astray by GRRM and believed Ashara had a fling with the wrong Stark brother.