Strength of the Seven.

[Shieldbreaker]

Greetings!

I have long been pondering on the strength of the Faith. Every other major religion has at least some more or less public displays of their strength. Priests of the Drowned God can survive only on seawater; followers of the Red God posess lots of magic powers, often displayed publically, even in Westeros as is the case with the BWB/Melisande. For followers of the Old Gods, you have common knowledge of wargs past the wall, and many examples of their strength at older times, by COTF.

Of course, the average peasant, bound to his lord, has not wandered far and does not get a lot of new information. But if a small, remote village can have knowledge of a mere fighter, the Hound, would they not have heard of other such feats of strength by various priests? The only things related to magic by the Faith that I have heard of are protection against undead/unholy creatures, should you be a righteous follower. While the Nights Watch has mostly followers of the Faith, I doubt if most of those are righteous in their hearts(As opposed to northerners, who might choose NW for righteous reasons, but are unlikely to be of the Faith), so maybe this can not be entirely disproven. And then there might be some healing powers, as (possibly) shown on the Quiet isle. But nowhere near anything as flashy as bringing the dead back to life, or igniting swords.

Yet, when Cersei allows the Faith to re-enable its militia, many people are willing to join. When northerners and followers of the Lord of Light destroy and ransack smaller churches of the Faith, followers are willing to take up arms and take the remains of slain worshipers to the capitol, instead of doubting their religion, which allows such acts to be carried out. All of this, after the main ruling dynasty did not follow the Faith and did many things opposite to what the Faith suggests, for hundreds of years.

What makes the Seven so strong, the mere fact that it has been a common religion for millenia? The Old Gods are way older, and yet northerners still have some who follow the Seven, and become knights, etc. And will it finally start to die out, when even the most righteous die to the wights of the Others?

[juanml82]

Planetos seems to have real gods or, at least, unseen creatures powerful enough to pass for gods. The Seven are not one of them - that particular religion seems to be worshiping false gods. But their followers are devout and so are willing to take up arms for the Faith and repudiate attacks against places of worships and servants of the Faith.

[Mladen]

First, welcome to the forum, Shieldbreaker. May you have nice and pleasant time here like the rest of us :cheers:

Now, the strength of every religion, even in our world is principally in tradition. Most of us inherit the religious beliefs and in some moment of our life, we either change them, become agnostics or atheists, or never bother with it that much. So, it is natural that religion that has been enforced first and later followed for thousands of years, is deeply rooted in population. I see nothing strange there... As for the magic, we can't determine that magic originates from any deity. Furthermore, none of the magical deeds proved existence of any God that we know of.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Welcome to the forum, Shieldbreaker! :grouphug:

You raise interesting questions. I'm just gonna address two of them:

1) What supernatural powers are ascribed to the Faith?

Adding to what you said, note that the 7 are supposed to protect from illnesses, give wisdom and strength, improve fertility, generally watch out and protect people, grant wisdom, make sure that trials get the right outcome etc. Mostly it's "pray for a boon" kind of stuff. The point is: In the eye of the common peasant, the 7 seem to intervene a lot more than any other gods around. From a critical perspective of course, it seems doubtful whether that intervention is real or the 7 are just claiming credit for random chance.

2) How did the Faith become so successful in Westeros?

It's generally an interesting question how religions achieve prominence. In this case, major factors in the Faith's favor were that Westeros was an isolated nation where the only rival religion was relatively weak - less organized, answered fewer questions (e.g. the Faith seems to come complete with a creation myth etc) and practiced by people that were technologically inferior. Usually the question of how much emphasis a religion places on mission plays a strong role; I believe we have few facts about the 7 there, but at least they have a strong tradition of aggressiveness (warriors with stars carved in their flesh, that kind of stuff).

Another religion where mission is very important, the Red Faith of R'hllor, seems to be gaining a lot of ground in the world however. Westeros's uniqueness survives by it being a backwater basically, although already there are Red temples on the continent (e.g. in Oldtown) and a convert king.

[Crowford]

R'hllor is only slowly gaining ground in Westeros, and it seems only in the last few years. Only one of the claimants to the throne backing the religion was what gave it a real boost.

But obviously, most people still follow the Faith, since it has been around for centuries (or even millenias, depending on how much you trust the timeline). It's not going to change overnight, but it is a change that is happening.

And the Old Gods? I don't know why you think that they would hold any more power than the Seven. Warging is something only very few people know about (or rather, believe it real). It's the same with Greenseeing. Those two are the only powers associated with the Old Gods. Aside from that, what do they have?

To the average person, probably even the Seven seem "more involved". You can pray to the specific aspect of the deity that you wish support from, such as in harvest or in childbirth. It's easy. Sometimes it even works. You have specific places of worhsip, and an organisation behind it that can do missionary work, unlike the followers of the Old Gods.

[Shieldbreaker]

R'hllor is only slowly gaining ground in Westeros, and it seems only in the last few years. Only one of the claimants to the throne backing the religion was what gave it a real boost.

But obviously, most people still follow the Faith, since it has been around for centuries (or even millenias, depending on how much you trust the timeline). It's not going to change overnight, but it is a change that is happening.

And the Old Gods? I don't know why you think that they would hold any more power than the Seven. Warging is something only very few people know about (or rather, believe it real). It's the same with Greenseeing. Those two are the only powers associated with the Old Gods. Aside from that, what do they have?

To the average person, probably even the Seven seem "more involved". You can pray to the specific aspect of the deity that you wish support from, such as in harvest or in childbirth. It's easy. Sometimes it even works. You have specific places of worhsip, and an organisation behind it that can do missionary work, unlike the followers of the Old Gods.

True enough about the Old Gods religion being decentrilised, but it also takes away from seeing weakness in it. There are plenty of priests of the Faith slain, their killers still alive and healthy; there are no 'priests' of the Old Gods to be slain. And the Old Gods have the Neck and that shattered islands thingy to show for their might. Then again, the records are unreliable at best, so the average person might percieve those feats of magic as likely as the claimed feats of the Seven.

But yes, it is easy to participate in the Faith, that indeed might be a large contributor to its popularity. However, it would seem quite odd that people believed that all the good that they pray for comes due to divine intervention, while all the bad things happen for some uncomprehendable reason. I would more agree with Stannis point of view in this case, that men are to blame for everything, good or bad, but I am not a peasant from feudal times.

Also, I was aware of people praying for a wide array of things to aspects of the Seven, but do people really believe that fullfillment of said prayers is magical? I was under the impression it is more of a figure of speech, to ask for protection from the Seven?

[Pero the first of His name]

There is a varying "magical field", places where it is stronger, objects and beings that enhance it and those who have the knowledge, ability and/or predispositions to use it differently.

We saw no gods, for all we knowgods are just how people describe magic, and other things they are clueless about.

[Crowford]

True enough about the Old Gods religion being decentrilised, but it also takes away from seeing weakness in it. There are plenty of priests of the Faith slain, their killers still alive and healthy; there are no 'priests' of the Old Gods to be slain. And the Old Gods have the Neck and that shattered islands thingy to show for their might. Then again, the records are unreliable at best, so the average person might percieve those feats of magic as likely as the claimed feats of the Seven.

But yes, it is easy to participate in the Faith, that indeed might be a large contributor to its popularity. However, it would seem quite odd that people believed that all the good that they pray for comes due to divine intervention, while all the bad things happen for some uncomprehendable reason. I would more agree with Stannis point of view in this case, that men are to blame for everything, good or bad, but I am not a peasant from feudal times.

Also, I was aware of people praying for a wide array of things to aspects of the Seven, but do people really believe that fullfillment of said prayers is magical? I was under the impression it is more of a figure of speech, to ask for protection from the Seven?

Well... religion? Yeah, I know what you are trying to say, unlike in our world where no religion can show any actual power, in ASoIaF the faith of R'hllor is closely associated with demonstrable power (if this has actually something to do with a god or not is another question, I think not).

But as I said, R'hllor is new, and religions like that take time. It's easier if they recycle a large part of another religion (like early christianity with judaism), but the Red Faith doesn't do that, so people will be much more hesitant to commit to it.

And as for the question why people still adhere to the Faith even when bad things happen to them. Well, religion?

[Beorn Snow]

There is some power in the seven... even though they don´t exist.

F.x. Sansa´s praying/wishing generally seems to be granted in some ways. The Hound finds peace, and Janos Slynt head is chopped off by a "hero." There is something going on there, although I don´t think it can be used intentionally, the Seven want humble, modest sincerity.