Spoilers: What TP&TQ tells us about Jon Snow's bastardy

[Twinslayer]

If it weren't for the spoiler, I would have called this thread: "So, it turns out Jon Snow is actually a bastard."

For present purposes, the theory that Jon Snow is the "legitimate" son of Rhaegar and Lyanna is largely based on the idea that Ser Gerold Hightower, Ser Oswell Whent and Ser Arthur Dayne were at the Tower of Joy to protect Jon because, after Aerys, Rhaegar and (supposedly) Aegon had died, Jon was the "King." The idea is that, if Jon was a bastard, the 3 KG would have been obligated by their KG oath to go to Dragonstone to guard Viserys. The support for this is that the "first duty" of the KG is to protect the king from threat or harm and that this "first duty" supercedes any other obligations, including the obligation to follow orders.

One counter-theory is that the three KG were at the TOJ because they were obeying an order to stay and guard Lyanna. The support is that the KG oath clearly includes an oath to follow orders and that Ser Barristan Selmy says in ADWD that KG protection can be extended to mistresses and bastards.

The Princess and the Queen deals a body blow to the theory that the KG must drop what they are doing and go to the king if he has no KG protection.

This is because, during the Dance, the KG was divided -- some supported Queen Rhaenyra and some supported King Aegon II. But, crucially, both Rhaenyra and Aegon were left without KG protection during the Dance.

First, we learn that when Queen Rhaenyra took KL, King Aegon II fled with Lord Larys Strong, two KG (Ser Rickard Thorne and Ser Willis Fell), and Prince Maelor and Princess Jaehaera. Soon after, they split up: Thorne goes to Lord Hightower with Maelor; Fell goes to Storm's End with Jaehaera; and King Aegon heads to Dragonstone with no KG protection.

Second, we learn that before Queen Rhaenyra took KL, she "donned a suit of gleaming black scale, mounted Syrax, and took flight" from Dragonstone to KL -- evidently, without KG protection on her journey or at her destination.

Third, we leard that when Viseryis II died, the KG waited overnight before looking for Aegon II and finding him with a paramour. If the succession is automatic and the KG must go immediately to the new king, this gap in protection would not have occured.

There are other examples, but what this shows is that the presence of Hightower, Whent and Dayne at the TOJ provides no evidence that Jon Snow is the "legitimate" child of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[Kienn]

Doesn't really add anything.

The KG's first duty.. is whatever each KG thinks it is. Each one can personally interpret their own contradictory vows and decide which actions are the most honorable or appropriate or best or however they choose to prioritize them.

Anyone that has claimed any KG was totally bound to any course of action is really just deluding themselves.

[Twinslayer]

Doesn't really add anything.

The KG's first duty.. is whatever each KG thinks it is. Each one can personally interpret their own contradictory vows and decide which actions are the most honorable or appropriate or best or however they choose to prioritize them.

Anyone that has claimed any KG was totally bound to any course of action is really just deluding themselves.

I don't disagree. There are, however, many, many posters on the R+L=J thread who do disagree with you...but who will be very disappointed to read TP&TQ.

[thetitansbastard]

Never understood why some make this topic such a big part of R+L=J and think that it proves R & L were married no less. the KG were simply following Rhaegars orders.

[Kienn]

I'm sure they'll continue deluding themselves by thinking that the 3 KG had all chosen to stay at the Tower for the reason that they wanted them to stay there, whether because Jon is legitimate or due to orders from Rhaegar.

We already have plenty of info from the main series(Jaime's own actions, Jaime reading the White Book, other KG tangential references) that KG aren't robots with programmed priorities, they make their own choices.

Basically it's still in the air whether Jon is legitimate or not (if it even matters... which I think it doesn't) until we get more information.

[thetitansbastard]

Basically it's still in the air whether Jon is legitimate or not (if it even matters... which I think it doesn't) until we get more information.

Why would it ever matter??

[Twinslayer]

I agree completely. There are, however, thousands (seemingly) of tortured threads arguing that Jon Snow must be legitimate becuase the 3 KG were at the TOJ. That's ridiculous, yet there are thousands of threads . . .

[Kienn]

Why would it ever matter??

Umm... for the personal gratification of the readers who want it to?

Or... because if he is legitimate somehow it will be learned by all of Westeros and for some reason they'll stop squabbling for power and demand that he become king of the world?

Or... because somehow his blood will be more "kingly" and "magical" if his parents were married?

Or... you're just asking the wrong person.

I agree completely. There are, however, thousands (seemingly) of tortured threads arguing that Jon Snow must be legitimate becuase the 3 KG were at the TOJ. That's ridiculous, yet there are thousands of threads . . .

People need something to argue about. At least that part is understandable.

P.S. Grey Wind is totally alive... :cool4:

[Florina Laufeyson]

What PatQ Taught Me About Jon's Bastardry:

He could still ride a dragon. Natch.

[Aerys Ahai Reborn]

"The first duty of the Kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat."

A king or queen with a dragon is defended well enough from a harm or threat. Well enough that a Kinsguard would make little difference.

[J. Stargaryen]

What exactly what have you proven here: that the king or queen can order the KG to do something out of their presence? Or that a corrupt KG like Ser Criston "The Kingmaker" Cole might not strictly follow his vows? So?

A new user named Lilly made a pretty significant contribution not too long ago.

“As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, ‘You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.’ That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree."

- ACoK, Catelyn VII (Jaime - Cat RR dungeon)

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

- AGoT, Eddard X (ToJ)

We know exactly what LC Gerold Hightower is thinking when he says that KG "swore a vow."

[Pugsley]

To play devil's advocate, it isn't so much the presence of the KG at the tower that's significant as what they say. When Ned confronts them and tells them where Viserys is, their response is along the lines of "oh well that's nice but the kingsguard does not flee." One could argue that they consider their duty at the tower a higher priority than protecting Viserys. Now I haven't read tp&tp so I don't know if there are situations where KG know the king is unprotected, but stay put anyway because they feel what they're doing is more important.

[Twinslayer]

What exactly what have you proven here[?]

I think what GRRM has proven here is that the KG don't have to violate orders issued by the old regime in order to go to the new king. That may (or may not) matter to you, but it seems to drive a lot of the pro-R+L=J arguments on the R+L=J threads.

[J. Stargaryen]

To play devil's advocate, it isn't so much the presence of the KG at the tower that's significant as what they say. When Ned confronts them and tells them where Viserys is, their response is along the lines of "oh well that's nice but the kingsguard does not flee." One could argue that they consider their duty at the tower a higher priority than protecting Viserys. Now I haven't read tp&tp so I don't know if there are situations where KG know the king is unprotected, but stay put anyway because they feel what they're doing is more important.

:agree: This exactly. And it's something that people often lose sight of. Also, thematically, it's not a surprise that we find the Kingsguard guarding the king at the ToJ.

[tze]

I think what GRRM has proven here is that the KG don't have to violate orders issued by the old regime in order to go to the new king. That may (or may not) matter to you, but it seems to drive a lot of the pro-R+L=J arguments on the R+L=J threads.

Which of Viserys's orders did the Kingsguard in TPatQ choose to uphold instead of going to Aegon?

[Kienn]

We know exactly what LC Gerold Hightower is thinking when he says that KG "swore a vow."

Well they do swear a vow to protect the king, and they don't swear a vow to judge the king.

They also swear many other vows(like to obey the king, or to protect women and children)... so why is it only the one that Hightower mentioned to Jaime that he must be thinking about at all times?

[Twinslayer]

:agree: This exactly. And it's something that people often lose sight of. Also, thematically, it's not a surprise that we find the Kingsguard guarding the king at the ToJ.

That is a slightly differert point, and it's one I can accept as being valid.

My objection is to the posters who say that that Jon must be king because if he wasn't the KG would go to Viserys immediately and automatically.

[J. Stargaryen]

Well they do swear a vow to protect the king, and they don't swear a vow to judge the king.

They also swear many other vows(like to obey the king, or to protect women and children)... so why is it only the one that Hightower mentioned to Jaime that he must be thinking about at all times?

I didn't claim that Hightower is thinking about anything "at all times." My point is that he's thinking about protecting the king one very specific time; at the ToJ.

[Twinslayer]

Which of Viserys's orders did the Kingsguard in TPatQ choose to uphold instead of going to Aegon?

Aahh, you are missing the point. Perhaps intentionally?

The KG in TP&TP obeyed Aegon II's orders -- one to go with his daughter and one to go with his son. They seem to have "flouted" their "first duty" to guard the king by doing so.

The R+L=J theory is that Rhaegar ordered Hightower, Whent and Dayne to stay at the TOJ to guard Lyanna. Then she had Jon. Then they found out that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon (supposedly) were dead. So they should have abandoned Lyanna and Jon (if he was a bastard) and disobeyed their order so that they could run off to Viserys.

TP&TQ puts that myth to bed, I think.

[Kienn]

I didn't claim that Hightower is thinking about anything "at all times." My point is that he's thinking about protecting the king one very specific time; at the ToJ.

Soo... same question with "at that specific time" instead of "at all times"...

I generally take a question dodge as admission that you have no real reason though.