The Bold > the Kingslayer.

[The Fallen]

` So, I was in the Slynt thread when the issue of Tyrion not being a lord came up. (You're about to go behind-the-scenes into how my mind works.) Which made me think of Brienne's surprise when Pod told her he was Tyrion's squire. As far as Brienne knows Tyrion has never been called Ser Imp, just Imp. And then I thought how even Hosteen gets called Ser Stupid as opposed to simply stupid.

This led to me asking myself if Hosteen could really be that stupid? And if he is, how he can't possibly be a truly great fighter. In my estimation, being the best requires intelligence as well as great natural ability. I then used boxing as an example (which I do often) and how 'Pretty Boy' Floyd Mayweather is the best because he's got great natural ability and intelligence. Paquiao has great natural ability and on most nights against most fighters he can simply overwhelm them with that ability, but he's not as intelligent (in the ring) as Floyd and depends on ability and not intelligence.

This in turn reminded me of the way Jaime had fought Brienne. It was all brawn and no brain. When healthy he can beat most opponents just through sheer ability and skill. And this led to a comparison with Barristan Selmy (who is of equal ability), and to the realization that Barristan would probably never fight in that manner. So I dug deeper to see if I was on to something. So I took the two fights that we've witnessed to see how each fighter approached the fight. What follows is the result of the research.

As I stated before, a healthy Jaime is too much for almost all fighters in Westeros. But knowing he wasn't at full streng;th he still chose this strategy; to go all out and try to overwhelm Brienne.

He sprang to his feet and drove at her, the longsword alive in his hands. Brienne jumped back, parrying, but he followed, pressing the attack. No sooner did she turn one cut than the next was upon her. The swords kissed and sprang apart and kissed again. Jaime's blood was singing. This was what he was meant for; he never felt so alive as when he was fighting, with death balanced on every stroke. And with my wrists chained together, the wench may even give me a contest for a time. His chains forced him to use a two-handed grip, though of course the weight and reach were less than if the blade had been a true two-handed greatsword, but what did it matter? His cousin's sword was long enough to write an end to this Brienne of Tarth.

There we see Jaime both overconfident, and underestimating his opponent.

"High, low, overhand, he rained down steel upon her. Left, right, backslash, swinging so hard that sparks flew when the swords came together, upswing, sideslash, overhand, always attacking, moving into her, step and slide, strike and step, step and strike, hacking, slashing, faster, faster, faster . . .

. . . until, breathless, he stepped back and let the point of the sword fall to the ground, giving her a moment of respite. "Not half bad," he acknowledged. "For a wench."

Here we see that Jaime has spent himself. Will he change tactics?

He whirled the blade back up above his head and flew at her again, chains rattling.

I guess not.

"Jaime could not have said how long he pressed the attack. It might have been minutes or it might have been hours; time slept when swords woke. He drove her away from his cousin's corpse, drove her across the road, drove her into the trees. She stumbled once on a root she never saw, and for a moment he thought she was done, but she went to one knee instead of falling, and never lost a beat. Her sword leapt up to block a downcut that would have opened her from shoulder to groin, and then she cut at him, again and again, fighting her way back to her feet stroke by stroke.

The dance went on. He pinned her against an oak, cursed as she slipped away, followed her through a shallow brook half-choked with fallen leaves. Steel rang, steel sang, steel screamed and sparked and scraped, and the woman started grunting like a sow at every crash, yet somehow he could not reach her. It was as if she had an iron cage around her that stopped every blow."

"Not bad at all," he said when he paused for a second to catch his breath, circling to her right.

Again, he has overexerted himself. Then things take a turn for the worse.

Grunting, she came at him, blade whirling, and suddenly it was Jaime struggling to keep steel from skin. One of her slashes raked across his brow, and blood ran down into his right eye. The Others take her, and Riverrun as well! His skills had gone to rust and rot in that bloody dungeon, and the chains were no great help either. His eye closed, his shoulders were going numb from the jarring they'd taken, and his wrists ached from the weight of chains, manacles, and sword. His longsword grew heavier with every blow, and Jaime knew he was not swinging it as quickly as he'd done earlier, nor raising it as high.

She is stronger than I am.

The realization chilled him.

Now Jaime is beginning to assess the position he's actually in. And he's not exactly thrilled by that realization.

Robert had been stronger than him, to be sure. The White Bull Gerold Hightower as well, in his heyday, and Ser Arthur Dayne. Amongst the living, Greatjon Umber was stronger, Strongboar of Crakehall most likely, both Cleganes for a certainty. The Mountain's strength was like nothing human. It did not matter. With speed and skill, Jaime could beat them all. But this was a woman. A huge cow of a woman, to be sure, but even so . . . by rights, she should be the one wearing down.

More evidence of his underestimation of Brienne. This fight shows us that Jaime relies on speed and skill to overwhelm his opponents. He didn't give much thought to his condition, lack of conditioning and lack of stamina. How he wouldn't be able to press such an aggressive attack for a long time. Basically, there was no thinking. Even if you argue that no other woman could have performed the way Brienne did and thus his underestimation was reasonable, it doesn't change the fact that underestimating is not smart and not something that an intelligent fighter would do. Especially after Jaime's first tango with Brienne. He should have changed tactics, but as they say, old habits die hard.

Having said all that, Jaime's natural ability is so good that he can still defeat 99% of all comers.

Now compare that to Barristan 'The Bold'. We also get his thoughts while in a fight. Notice the difference, right off the bat.

Ser Barristan heard a door open, somewhere to his left. He turned in time to see Khrazz emerge from behind a tapestry. He moved slowly, still groggy from sleep, but his weapon of choice was in his hand: a Dothraki arakh, long and curved. A slasher's sword, made to deliver deep, slicing cuts from horseback. A murderous blade against half-naked foes, in the pit or on the battlefield. But here at close quarters, the arakh's length would tell against it, and Barristan Selmy was clad in plate and mail."

The two men were of a height, but Khrazz was two stone heavier and forty years younger ...

We see the opposite of Jaime, granted Khrazz looks more formidable than Brienne, and even a in-his-prime-Jaime would have stopped to size up his opponent. But would Jaime have made the same deductions that Barristan has made. Especially about the arakh and it's advantages and disadvantages?

Interestingly, they both have the same thoughts about fighting.

For the first time all day, Selmy felt certain. This is what I was made for, he thought. The dance, the sweet steel song, a sword in my hand and a foe before me.

Jaime's blood was singing. This was what he was meant for; he never felt so alive as when he was fighting, with death balanced on every stroke.

Let's take a look at the fight.

The pit fighter was fast, blazing fast, as quick as any man Ser Barristan had ever fought. In those big hands, the arakh became a whistling blur, a steel storm that seemed to come at the old knight from three directions at once. Most of the cuts were aimed at his head. Khrazz was no fool. Without a helm, Selmy was most vulnerable above the neck. He blocked the blows calmly, his longsword meeting each slash and turning it aside. The blades rang and rang again. Ser Barristan retreated. On the edge of his vision, he saw the cupbearers watching with eyes as big and white as chicken eggs. Khrazz cursed and turned a high cut into a low one, slipping past the old knight's blade for once, only to have his blow scrape uselessly off a white steel greave. Selmy's answering slash found the pit fighter's left shoulder, parting the fine linen to bite the flesh beneath. His yellow tunic began to turn pink, then red.

Barristan had already taken into account the age and size difference before the fight and in contrast to Jaime, he calmly blocks the slashes from Khrazz.

Khrazz did not know how to fight a man in armor. Ser Barristan could see it in his eyes: doubt, confusion, the beginnings of fear. The pit fighter came on again, screaming this time, as if sound could slay his foe where steel could not. The arakh slashed low, high, low again.

Selmy blocked the cuts at his head and let his armor stop the rest, whilst his own blade opened the pit fighter's cheek from ear to mouth, then traced a raw red gash across his chest. Blood welled from Khrazz's wounds. That only seemed to make him wilder. He seized the brazier with his off hand and flipped it, scattering embers and hot coals at Selmy's feet. Ser Barristan leapt over them. Khrazz slashed at his arm and caught him, but the arakh could only chip the hard enamel before it met the steel below.

Barristan knows that the arakh is useless against his steel and he makes great use of the advantage.

"Die," spat Khrazz … but as he lifted his arakh, its tip grazed one of the wall hangings and hung. That was all the chance Ser Barristan required. He slashed open the pit fighter's belly, parried the arakh as it wrenched free, then finished Khrazz with a quick thrust to the heart as the pit fighter's entrails came sliding out like a nest of greasy eels. Blood and viscera stained the king's silk carpets. Selmy took a step back. The longsword in his hand was red for half its length.

Two fights by two of the top two fighters in the series. (And this is a 60 year old Barristan. Imagine him in his prime.) Now at first glance the obvious is that Jaime was in less than prime fighting shape. And I agree that before his imprisonment at Riverrun he would have made short-work of Brienne (a sentiment that Brienne shares in AFfC, so don't start with the charges of misogyny).

But lets take a closer look. Jaime was weakened and hadn't held a sword in a year. But Barristan is 60 years old, clearly not in his prime nor in good of a shape as most men in their prime years. So we have two fighters who aren't at their best, although physically I would give Barristan the advantage.

Now, their two foes are different. Khrazz is young, strong and fast, but not accustomed to fighting knights in armor. Brienne is probably not as strong or fast as Khrazz, but she's clearly the smarter fighter and can hold her own against most opponents. It seems that Barristan has the easier go as he's both in better shape than Jaime and has an opponent who doesn't seem able to out think an opponent. I would caution though, that had Barristan had no armor he might have been killed by Khrazz. I think that says a lot about Khrazz' actual fighting ability.

I had always put Jaime ahead of Barristan, but I've changed my mind. To me, the two fights say more about their mentality than their ability. Both Jaime and Barristan have great natural ability and they're both prodigies. They're isn't much to take apart when it comes to their skills. Both fighters would mop the floor with 99.9% of the knights in Westeros. But when faced with someone of the same ability the outcome will be decided by the small things. (We're all aware of what I like to call Barristan's Rule; how a rock or what you had for breakfast can make all the difference.) If Jaime and Barristan faced off in their primes I think that Barristan would be able to take advantage of those little things. And with their ability so closely matched, that would most likely be the determining factor. And when you add what George Argh Argh Martin has said about Barristan being Arthur Dayne's equal if Dawn isn't used, I have to give Barristan 'The Bold' Selmy the edge.

I would love to hear where you guys stand.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

LOL, that's a loooooooooooooooong read, but I wanted to tell you that it sounds like your mind hops, skips, and jumps around just like mine does, and I am interested to read what you've written. Especially since it's about Barristan THE BOLD, I would guess, and The Kingslayer? His name is Jaime, Ser Jaime.....THE Kingslayer.

~off to read~

[Skagosi High Chef]

Good breakdown of the two fighter's mentalities. I would tend to agree with you. My money is on Selmy.

[eggs]

I then used boxing as an example (which I do often) and how 'Pretty Boy' Floyd Mayweather is the best because he's got great natural ability and intelligence. Paquiao has great natural ability and on most nights against most fighters he can simply overwhelm them with that ability, but he's not as intelligent (in the ring) as Floyd and depends on ability and not intelligence.

yeah, that sounds about right. I doubt Jaime has ever been in a fight where he couldnt simply walk over his opponent and had to fall back on strategy.

Jaime would still win against old Selmy though.

[Skagosi High Chef]

Vic vs the Bold, now that is viper vs mountain quality there.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I think part of the problem is with Jaime we/he were already coming from an emotional place and that, too, effected his fighting as much as the dungeons of Riverrun and the time spent out of practice. Jaime is already being emotionally laid bare (all the info out about him and Cersei, having confessed to what he did to Bran, etc.) and of course, the underestimation of Brienne figures into it, too. If Brienne had been a hair less talented, Jaime still might have beat her with the 'make quick work of a woman' approach. It helps that Brienne was warned about this tactic that men would use. Jaime, IMO, was also just too happy to have a sword in his hand, too, and that distracted him. I do wonder that if he'd been determined the whole time that he must kill her and escape.......how it might have worked out. In other words, I do think Jaime is showing mental and emotional differences, already, that figure into how that fight went. Jaime was a spur of the moment thing, and Barristan and the Pit fighter were something that Barristan was planning on confronting all day, actually, for days on end. Barristan's whole situation was much more planned out than Jaime's. I was impressed with Barristan's calmness, almost teaching a course in swordfighting to the reader while he waited for his opportunity to kill his foe. So perhaps, it's more about emotions with each of them in regards to these two fights. Jaime is emotionally all over the place where as Barristan (as he himself admits, politically, anyway, not the sharpest tool in the shed) seems detached emotionally?

Just some thoughts, from a non boxer?

ETA: Yes, that was a fun read, too. They may be two of my favorite fight scenes from the story.

[DrunkSister]

Great job with the OP

[Gneisenau]

I'm still not sure that Barristan would beat Jaime or vice versa when both are in armor.

But I'm not sure I agree with the Barristan being brain and Jaime being brawn. All fighting requires brain and brawn. Who is to say that Jaime's brain decided his best course of action (which in this case was still inadequate) was to overwhelm Brienne ? Brienne is well fed and Jaime is not, so for Jaime waiting it out is a no go.

Jaime is a knight and would wear armor if he could. Also Jaime's attack on Brienne was a spur of the moment thing whereas Barry planned his attack. Certainly Barristan has spur of moments too, since he said he would have tried to cut Robert if he smiled at Aegon's corpse

[Thucydides]

Nicely done analysis. I was pretty skeptical to begin with, but you convinced me with your analysis of Barri's fight with the pit fighter.

[Iona]

Ha! This is a hard one - both natural swordfighters, both undeniably good, but both have also gotten their arses handed to them in battle at some point. Still... I'm gonna go with Barry, since even if the fighters are pretty equal otherwise, in my mind nothing beats experience.

I think that if Jaime wants to do any swordfighting in the future, he'll need to learn some tricks from Brienne, since his opponents will have the same attitude towards him. "Oh look, a cripple - better kill him fast so I won't get mocked for not being able to quickly finish a one-armed man".

[The Fallen]

LOL, that's a loooooooooooooooong read, but I wanted to tell you that it sounds like your mind hops, skips, and jumps around just like mine does, and I am interested to read what you've written. Especially since it's about Barristan THE BOLD, I would guess, and The Kingslayer? His name is Jaime, Ser Jaime.....THE Kingslayer.

~off to read~

Ha ha, I can go from here to there (mentally) in no time.

Very interesting read, thank you.

One or two things I'd like to note

- Brienne and Barristan are using the same fighting style. They take the measure of their opponent, conserving their energy and initially only defend themselves.

- Jaime, as you say, can walk all over most opponents. Since he's never been as humble as Ser Barristan (or Brienne), when his arrogance no longer matches up to his ability he gets ruined. I think if he is ever to become truly skilled with is left hand, he will be far more dangerous than with his right because he will fight as Barristan does - intelligently, because they know weakness.

- Khrazz is essentially Jaime in this. ''Ser Barristan could see it in his eyes: doubt, confusion, the beginnings of fear.''

In short; I agree. Now the thing to do is analyse Victarion, because I have a feeling he's going to come up against Barristan at some point.

All good points. Especially about Barristan and Brienne using a similar style. I also, noticed that as I was reading. Which, by the way, would be a style I would probably employ myself (as I'm not the biggest guy around) if I was a swordsman.

I can analyze Vic now. See man, hit man. Ha ha.

[The Fallen]

I think part of the problem is with Jaime we/he were already coming from an emotional place and that, too, effected his fighting as much as the dungeons of Riverrun and the time spent out of practice. Jaime is already being emotionally laid bare (all the info out about him and Cersei, having confessed to what he did to Bran, etc.) and of course, the underestimation of Brienne figures into it, too. If Brienne had been a hair less talented, Jaime still might have beat her with the 'make quick work of a woman' approach. It helps that Brienne was warned about this tactic that men would use. Jaime, IMO, was also just too happy to have a sword in his hand, too, and that distracted him. I do wonder that if he'd been determined the whole time that he must kill her and escape.......how it might have worked out. In other words, I do think Jaime is showing mental and emotional differences, already, that figure into how that fight went. Jaime was a spur of the moment thing, and Barristan and the Pit fighter were something that Barristan was planning on confronting all day, actually, for days on end. Barristan's whole situation was much more planned out than Jaime's. I was impressed with Barristan's calmness, almost teaching a course in swordfighting to the reader while he waited for his opportunity to kill his foe. So perhaps, it's more about emotions with each of them in regards to these two fights. Jaime is emotionally all over the place where as Barristan (as he himself admits, politically, anyway, not the sharpest tool in the shed) seems detached emotionally?

Just some thoughts, from a non boxer?

ETA: Yes, that was a fun read, too. They may be two of my favorite fight scenes from the story.

I would imagine being 60 probably plays into Barristan's approach against Khrazz. He knows Khrazz is younger and heavier, then he sees the speed and chooses to use his armor to his advantage. I wonder how a younger Barristan would have approached that encounter?

I'm still not sure that Barristan would beat Jaime or vice versa when both are in armor.

But I'm not sure I agree with the Barristan being brain and Jaime being brawn. All fighting requires brain and brawn. Who is to say that Jaime's brain decided his best course of action (which in this case was still inadequate) was to overwhelm Brienne ? Brienne is well fed and Jaime is not, so for Jaime waiting it out is a no go.

Jaime is a knight and would wear armor if he could. Also Jaime's attack on Brienne was a spur of the moment thing whereas Barry planned his attack. Certainly Barristan has spur of moments too, since he said he would have tried to cut Robert if he smiled at Aegon's corpse

I agree that it would be hard to choose between these two. As it is, I'm giving it to Barristan by a smidgen.

I don't know that all fighting requires brain. I think some fighters are robotic. They've been taught a certain way to fight and they can never adjust. So when they come across someone who goes left instead of right, they're totally at a loss as to what to do. But I agree that you can't get to Jaime's level without using your brains. But it's also the case than when you possess that kind of great natural ability you tend to rely on that and it'll work out for you nine times out of ten. And now that I'm thinking about it, another thing that kind of reinforces what I'm saying is how surprised Jaime is about how useless his left hand is. He was so reliant (and only focused) on the right that his left hand might as well have been an adornment. I'm no expert on swordfighting, but I find it hard to believe that someone like Barristan or Arthur Dayne would allow their offhand to become so useless.

But you make good points.

Ha! This is a hard one - both natural swordfighters, both undeniably good, but both have also gotten their arses handed to them in battle at some point. Still... I'm gonna go with Barry, since even if the fighters are pretty equal otherwise, in my mind nothing beats experience.

I think that if Jaime wants to do any swordfighting in the future, he'll need to learn some tricks from Brienne, since his opponents will have the same attitude towards him. "Oh look, a cripple - better kill him fast so I won't get mocked for not being able to quickly finish a one-armed man".

Not bad advice.

[Victor227]

Jaime's biggest problem with fighting Brienne was that he was fighting like -himself-. When you're trained, and practice day by day to fight a certain way, you can't just snap yourself out of it, especially in an 'improvised' fight like what happened. Jaime was fighting like he hadn't been chained to a floor for months and malnourished. His body wasn't able to keep up with the skill and stamina he wanted from it, and Brienne was able to outlast him until he wore out.

I doubt he'd ever prepared for something more defensive. Defensive -sounds- good. But in the field? You want to be able to tear an opponent apart so fast and so terribly that if he has any fellows, they hesitate or run outright for fear (he demonstrates a firm understanding of that when he charges the archers instead of running, relying on their natural fear of mounted swordsmen). Brienne gets by on her 'don't want to make it look like you took too long finishing off a woman' thing, and Selmy has only fought one on one (that we know of), barring the Goldcloak fight, which he handled, well... like Jaime would, attacking swiftly and aggressively.

We have an example of Jaime fighting in combat at the Whispering Woods, where he's caught in an ambush, and surrounded by enemies with higher ground, and he's an outright -demon- in that fight. He rallies his knights and cuts a bloody swath of death through the Northern lines, and into Robb's personal guard, killing a number of vital heirs and kinsmen. In one losing battle, he triggers Karstark's insanity, and the Hornwood conflict. He was a beast in battle, probably more effective than Gregor Clegane.

[Rickeen Stark]

Jaime at full strength = no contest. But he did underestimate Brienne, like you said, because she was a 'wench' and he didn't believe he could be beaten. But later, when Brienne recalls; she tried VERY hard just to hold him off, and if he were at full strength, she'd be dead.

[Skagosi High Chef]

Jaime at full strength = no contest. But he did underestimate Brienne, like you said, because she was a 'wench' and he didn't believe he could be beaten. But later, when Brienne recalls; she tried VERY hard just to hold him off, and if he were at full strength, she'd be dead.

Jaime and Brienne a no contest, or Jaime and Selmy?

[Rickeen Stark]

Both, I'd say. Selmy is good, yes, but he is fighting someone not used to fighting people with armour on; Jaime is. And Brienne admits herself that Jaime would've won at full strength.

[Zeus_Invictus]

This also provides a potential way Barristan could lose to Victarion. He'll analyze his opponent and go into the fight expecting him to hit hard, because Victarion's a very large man with an axe, only to be overwhelmed when Victarion's red hand starts dishing out Gregor-caliber blows.

[kiasyd]

A seasoned and experienced warrior is often more dangerous than a skilled albeit young one. Just watch one of those national geographic shows about wolves or lions (no euphemisms here!), and see how the elders fight.

[White Ravens]

Am I missing something or is everyone forgetting the fact that Jaime has lost his dominant hand? There is no way that he could defeat Barriston one-on-one with his "wrong" hand. If anything the fight between Jaime and Brienne illustrated that, while formidable, Brienne is not as skilled as we might have thought because Jaime nearly bested her after languishing in prison with his "good" hand amputated.

[Skagosi High Chef]

Two-handed Jaime vs Prime Selmy 50/50. Selmy would not be as wary as he is when he's older, they would be more similar, Selmy a bit more finesse and Jaime a bit more athletic.

One-handed Jaime vs Old Selmy, I go with old Selmy.