Iron born army.

[Stormland's Fury]

And look how easy it was for them to be recaptured. Rodrik took back one castle straight away. He then rrode to winterfell and was betrayed on the cusp of victory. The North was taken by surprise and when it began to fight back began to win again

And while I would agree that Robb took some of the best men I would not agree about this fully. Ramsays 600 are very well trained. The 3000 clansmen are the same as the ironborn for ferocity.

The ironborn do not know the land (see jaime at the whispering wood) and have no heavy or light cavalry as well as what seems like a prevalent use of just infantry. No pike formations and few archers. They are fierce fighters but are set up and trained as raiders, not suited for land battle

And the crannogmen were taking a toll on Vic and his best soldiers. They can easily rejoin the north and can continue their guerilla war

The original question was why they thought they could take it and how big their army actually is.

I just described the Ironborn's POV. For them the North was practically empty and they were confident enough to take some castles based on that assumption. If it was realistically possible is a whole other issue.

Also it was not their main strength attacking IIRC. But considering that Euron takes all the forces south later on and at least makes the Reachmen nervous can give some idea how many men they have. The Reach has the biggest army and are in full strength still.

That considered it's much more understandable that they thought they could take the North.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I seriously get confused sometimes what Balon actually wanted.

What many leaders throughout history have wanted: to recapture a glory lost before their time, so that they'll be immortalized in history.

Henry VIII wanted to regain England's old territories in France. That never happened either. Admittedly Henry managed not to get knocked off a bridge and fall to his death.

[Stormland's Fury]

What many leaders throughout history have wanted: to recapture a glory lost before their time, so that they'll be immortalized in history.

Henry VIII wanted to regain England's old territories in France. That never happened either. Admittedly Henry managed not to get knocked off a bridge and fall to his death.

Well he wanted some dominion over the North, but did he mean the coastal areas or the whole thing?

He declared himself king of the Iron Islands and the North, but Theon got so far inland on his own initiative.

[Frey Pie]

The original question was why they thought they could take it and how big their army actually is.

I just described the Ironborn's POV. For them the North was practically empty and they were confident enough to take some castles based on that assumption. If it was realistically possible is a whole other issue.

Also it was not their main strength attacking IIRC. But considering that Euron takes all the forces south later on and at least makes the Reachmen nervous can give some idea how many men they have. The Reach has the biggest army and are in full strength still.

That considered it's much more understandable that they thought they could take the North.

I answered the op already- they are unbelievably optimistic.

Balon sent his best men north. Euron sent them across the world looking for dragons. The Reach has something like 50000 or so men in KL with all the leaders. They are right to be nervous in the same way Robb was.

Say they have 30000 men which is a reasonable enough assumption. This is not enough to take and hold half of Westeros especially against a population who hates them

The ironborn believe they are superior therefore they believe they will win no matter the odds. It is only when this facade is cracked in the north that realists like Asha propose better plans

[Lord Reaver]

It's easy to recapture castles when everyone has been pulled out because the King is dead and his successor decides to go make war somewhere else.

The Ironborn army is somewhere between 25-50k, just in the same area as the other main regions (Reach excempt of course), maybe a bit below.

The numbers are fairly easily derived from the size of Euron's force when assaulting the Shield Islands. And keep in mind, these are his forces AFTER the attack on the north, so you'd have to factor those in too. If anything it's a low estimate.

[jarl the climber]

I seriously get confused sometimes what Balon actually wanted.

Aeron seems to think that Balon was trying to preserve the Old Ways more than anything else. To a certain extent he sucsceeded , Many of the Septs that were destroyed during the first uprising were never rebuilt. It did halt the intergration into Westerosi culutre which was more important than a crown to Balon according to Aeron. As far as the current war goes, he saw an oppurtunity and he took it.

And look how easy it was for them to be recaptured. Rodrik took back one castle straight away. He then rrode to winterfell and was betrayed on the cusp of victory. The North was taken by surprise and when it began to fight back began to win again

And while I would agree that Robb took some of the best men I would not agree about this fully. Ramsays 600 are very well trained. The 3000 clansmen are the same as the ironborn for ferocity.

The ironborn do not know the land (see jaime at the whispering wood) and have no heavy or light cavalry as well as what seems like a prevalent use of just infantry. No pike formations and few archers. They are fierce fighters but are set up and trained as raiders, not suited for land battle

And the crannogmen were taking a toll on Vic and his best soldiers. They can easily rejoin the north and can continue their guerilla war

I agree, if nothing else Robb must have had some idea the Wall was in jeopardy and this would explain why so many of the clans stayed home. A mounted force of 3,000 men fighting on their own ground could have cut Mances army to ribbons if he happened to get through the Wall.

On the other hand I think the Ironborn do have some good archers, its consistent with their skill in naval warfare.

[Stormland's Fury]

Does the size even matter when they just stick to their element?

A region like the Reach can have all the men it wants if the Ironborn stick to water bodies.

It's not like they go to battle on land like the rest of a realm in any case.

[Frey Pie]

On the other hand I think the Ironborn do have some good archers, its consistent with their skill in naval warfare.

I agree it is logical and yet we see vert few ironborn archers. They throw axes. Theon is a fantastic archer and learnt from dagmer but I don't recall any other ironborn archers. At winterfell I don't remember anything but axes being hefted when one would think they would have a few bowmen at least

[Lord Reaver]

12k men for the entire Ironborn army is preposterously low. The Iron Fleet itself has about that number (100 ships each having 100+ men).

Since the Iron Fleet is the fleet of the Lord Paramount, that means that the entire force of the Ironborn nobles amounts to 0 men. Which...eh...yes...like I said, ridiculous.

[Stormland's Fury]

I agree it is logical and yet we see vert few ironborn archers. They throw axes. Theon is a fantastic archer and learnt from dagmer but I don't recall any other ironborn archers. At winterfell I don't remember anything but axes being hefted when one would think they would have a few bowmen at least

The books are very vague on how they actually fight.

With the other regions we always can assume how it transpires because we are used to it to some degree.

I couldn't even say how many Ironborn use plate armor or the like, if any. Victarion being the exception.

[Frey Pie]

Does the size even matter when they just stick to their element?

A region like the Reach can have all the men it wants if the Ironborn stick to water bodies.

It's not like they go to battle on land like the rest of a realm in any case.

Size of the army or size of the region? In both cases yes. If the ironborn are caught on land in large numbers they will suffer casualties. Taking garrisoned castles will also hurt them. The further inland they get the worse it becomes so you are right they should stick to water bodies and retreat when attacked

The size of the north is why it was never going to be fully taken or held by a limited force such as the ironborn

[Frey Pie]

The books are very vague on how they actually fight.

With the other regions we always can assume how it transpires because we are used to it to some degree.

I couldn't even say how many Iroborn use plate armor or the like if any, Victarion being the exception.

I agree but it seems predominantly they use axes and shields with a few spears.

As for plate I wouldn't say it is too common in many areas

[Lord Reaver]

I couldn't even say how many Ironborn use plate armor or the like, if any. Victarion being the exception.

Most seem to use mail, from the descriptions we have. Asha's entire force is described as "clad in mail and salt-stained leather".

[Stormland's Fury]

Size of the army or size of the region? In both cases yes. If the ironborn are caught on land in large numbers they will suffer casualties. Taking garrisoned castles will also hurt them. The further inland they get the worse it becomes so you are right they should stick to water bodies and retreat when attacked

The size of the north is why it was never going to be fully taken or held by a limited force such as the ironborn

I meant the size of the Ironborn army. If they simply stick to the sea or coastal areas it shouldn't really matter how many men the enemy can muster. That's why it's so baffling why they try to go inland, as they don't even have a convectional army.

It's like apples fighting against oranges actually.

I agree but it seems predominantly they use axes and shields with a few spears.

As for plate I wouldn't say it is too common in many areas

Yes, axes seem to be the most common, but I would assume that they have archers in case of naval combat.

[jarl the climber]

I agree it is logical and yet we see vert few ironborn archers. They throw axes. Theon is a fantastic archer and learnt from dagmer but I don't recall any other ironborn archers. At winterfell I don't remember anything but axes being hefted when one would think they would have a few bowmen at least

I remember that they pretty much decimated the rabbit brigade with their archery before moving in to finish them in hand to hand. Its not much to go on but I think they could deploy a fair number of archers if that was applicable to the situation. So they are at least adequate in this area in all likelyhood, its probably rarely specialised in but a well rounded warrior would be competent with a bow.

[Stormland's Fury]

Most seem to use mail, from the descriptions we have. Asha's entire force is described as "clad in mail and salt-stained leather".

That would also make most sense for a seafaring people who on top of that relies heavily on flexibility and speed.

[Lord Stark]

What says that each of the 100 longships in the Iron Fleet is 100 men strong. Longships have a long range of sizes, and 100 manned crews are on the largest size for a longship. I have no doubt that the Iron Islands cannot muster more than 25k at the most extreme of times, and that mean when the Islands are being invaded. Combined the Iron Islands are the size of a lord paramounts bannermens lands. At most two. In the south, the average House supports between 1000 - 2000 men. This changes region by region. Being nice, if I say that combined the Iron Islands equal the lands of 2 houses, that would be roughly 4000 men. The Iron Islands are rough, and barren. There is little farmland, and what little there is has little top soil. Labour animals are even more rare, so everything much be done by hand instead of with horse or oxen. Mining takes longer with these animals, and as such they have no gold, silver or such, and instead of iron, and tin, which is hard to mine. They rely on fishing, and as such have to build costly ships to ship. They are raiders, and many of them would die at sea. Victarion tell us that many ironborn were plate because they don't fear drowning. While those they fight wear mail so they can swim. That means if an Ironborn falls, he drowns.

With all of this, there is no reason to believe that these islands should be able to support an army of even 4000, but what they lack in farmland, and wealth, they make up for in slaves that do the work for them, and so have a higher percentage of the population under arms. All of a sudden this 4000 turns into 12k - 25k, in longships that range from crews of 12 men - 100 men.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Several reasons:

• The Iron Islands are far more densely settled than the mainland. Fishing and mining allow for that.
• A naval-based economy allows about twice as many men to serve as military than agrarian-based one.

Altogether that allows the Iron Islands to punch several weight classes above their landmass.

To their defense they only tried independence and maybe regain some territory on the west coast. Or at least I think that was the plan.

The North was practically empty. Still I never quite got how they thought to hold it, even if the North is sparsely populated. They probably didn't expect to loose Moat Cailin.

Balon was an idiot. Asha or the Reader are very quick to point out that the entire enterprise was doomed from the start.

The actual fighters were still in the south though and many of the remaining men were green boys (like the bunny men or what were they called), look how easy it was to capture some castles.

They weren't interested in crannogmen as they captured Moat Cailin and cut them off from the rest of the North. And if they concentrated all their forces on the North they still would have more men and the superior warriors.

The only reason the Ironborn weren't kicked out after a couple weeks is named Ramsay Snow. He started a civil war with Hornwood and Manderly, that's three Houses already not fighting the Ironborn. He betrayed and killed Ser Rodrik Cassel, ending the strength of Stark, Cerwyn, Tallhart and a couple minor ones as well as taking out the entire leadership in the North.

Also it was not their main strength attacking IIRC. But considering that Euron takes all the forces south later on and at least makes the Reachmen nervous can give some idea how many men they have. The Reach has the biggest army and are in full strength still.

That considered it's much more understandable that they thought they could take the North.

The Ironborn in the Reach are a pain in the ass and an economic and political liability, not a serious threat.

What says that each of the 100 longships in the Iron Fleet is 100 men strong. Longships have a long range of sizes, and 100 manned crews are on the largest size for a longship. I have no doubt that the Iron Islands cannot muster more than 25k at the most extreme of times, and that mean when the Islands are being invaded. Combined the Iron Islands are the size of a lord paramounts bannermens lands. At most two. In the south, the average House supports between 1000 - 2000 men. This changes region by region. Being nice, if I say that combined the Iron Islands equal the lands of 2 houses, that would be roughly 4000 men. The Iron Islands are rough, and barren. There is little farmland, and what little there is has little top soil. Labour animals are even more rare, so everything much be done by hand instead of with horse or oxen. Mining takes longer with these animals, and as such they have no gold, silver or such, and instead of iron, and tin, which is hard to mine. They rely on fishing, and as such have to build costly ships to ship. They are raiders, and many of them would die at sea. Victarion tell us that many ironborn were plate because they don't fear drowning. While those they fight wear mail so they can swim. That means if an Ironborn falls, he drowns.

With all of this, there is no reason to believe that these islands should be able to support an army of even 4000, but what they lack in farmland, and wealth, they make up for in slaves that do the work for them, and so have a higher percentage of the population under arms. All of a sudden this 4000 turns into 12k - 25k, in longships that range from crews of 12 men - 100 men.

We do know that the ships of the Iron Fleet are just a tad smaller than those of the Royal Fleet (Theon). We do know that the ships of the Royal Fleet feature 100 oars on average, with the odd 200 or 300 (Davos). Oars, not total crew.

[The Black Kraken]

Because we do not sow.

[Stormland's Fury]

Several reasons:

• The Iron Islands are far more densely settled than the mainland. Fishing and mining allow for that.

A naval-based economy allows about twice as many men to serve as military than agrarian-based one.

Altogether that allows the Iron Islands to punch several weight classes above their landmass.

Balon was an idiot. Asha or the Reader are very quick to point out that the entire enterprise was doomed from the start.

Exactly the reason why the Reader and Asha are my favorite IB.

The only reason the Ironborn weren't kicked out after a couple weeks is named Ramsay Snow. He started a civil war with Hornwood and Manderly, that's three Houses already not fighting the Ironborn. He betrayed and killed Ser Rodrik Cassel, ending the strength of Stark, Cerwyn, Tallhart and a couple minor ones as well as taking out the entire leadership in the North.

Yeah I agree, but my point was more along the lines that it was just an Ironborn splinter group who got that far inland anyway, so it is hard to say what the full IB force could achieve.

The Ironborn in the Reach are a pain in the ass and an economic and political liability, not a serious threat.

Again, there's no way the IB could be a serious threat to the Reach, I agree. This was another example on how to measure how big their army could be, as the Reachmen found it necessary to direct several of their forces to deal with the IB.

We do know that the ships of the Iron Fleet are just a tad smaller than those of the Royal Fleet (Theon). We do know that the ships of the Royal Fleet feature 100 oars on average, with the odd 200 or 300 (Davos). Oars, not total crew.