Lord Kyan of House Bear Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 How come the iron islanders have such a big army, considering its really only like a few small Islands But seem to have a considerable military force. I don't understand this. Can anyone explain this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingOfTheRock Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 The Islands aren't THAT small.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegars Heir Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 they aren't that small and their army isn't that big their main strength is their ship and the fact that they use thralls to crew them instead of their warriors which allows them to man more ships. also their army only seems big right now because they haven't taken heavy losses in the war of 5 kings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Stark Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 They have roughly 12k - 25k. They can muster a higher percentage of men within their land than most kingdoms because they use thralls, pretty much slaves. Women also play small roles, although larger than in Andal in the south, but smaller than it would seem than Northerns/First Men. They are almost unmatched at sea, although the Arbor is close to their power, and the combined Reach can likely match or exceed them. Still, 12k - 15k is a rather large number for those tiny islands. They are also on the downslide. They are a former shadow of their glory. Even before they controlled the Riverlands, they controlled most the western islands. Fair Island, Bear Island, Shield Islands, and such, so they are trying to hang on to their past, and it's only possible with their thralls/slaves they gain from raiding. As for small, compared to the other kingdoms/regions, they are small. Lets be honest. Combined they are the size of Skagos. 1/4th the size of the Stormlands, the next smallest kingdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Kyan of House Bear Posted March 31, 2014 Author Share Posted March 31, 2014 Yeah but still to think that they could rebel against the crown previously and then to take the north and hold it they must have had a sizeable force! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Yeah but still to think that they could rebel against the crown previously and then to take the north and hold it they must have had a sizeable force! To their defense they only tried independence and maybe regain some territory on the west coast. Or at least I think that was the plan. The North was practically empty. Still I never quite got how they thought to hold it, even if the North is sparsely populated. They probably didn't expect to loose Moat Cailin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegars Heir Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Yeah but still to think that they could rebel against the crown previously and then to take the north and hold it they must have had a sizeable force! they took the north when most of it men were away fighting in the south and were smart enough to take moat calin which barred the north men from returning it was most strategy than brute man power Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Yeah but still to think that they could rebel against the crown previously and then to take the north and hold it they must have had a sizeable force!Na just unbelievably optimistic. Neither plan was ever going to workI would give them a number around 20 to 30k. Mostly because as has been said they are a martial society so a larger percentage carry arms.They are at a huge disadvantage when fighting on land though as they lack any sort of cavalry. A smaller force with a better mix of units could take a larger force of ironborn if properly led Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I am more surprised that they think they can go so far inland while they clearly are only good on sea and depend on relatively fast raiding attacks.Do they even possess cavalry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twenty of House Goodmen Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I am more surprised that they think they can go so far inland while they clearly are only good on sea and depend on relatively fast raiding attacks.Do they even possess cavalry?They don't. But they did somehow get the best of both the Westerlands and the North in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I am more surprised that they think they can go so far inland while they clearly are only good on sea and depend on relatively fast raiding attacks.Do they even possess cavalry?Wasnt that precisely the problem Theon had though? Winterfell was removed from the coast, as Asha pointed out to him. That was why Balon wanted only to raid the Stoney Shore and take coastal zones/rivers accessible areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 To their defense they only tried independence and maybe regain some territory on the west coast. Or at least I think that was the plan. The North was practically empty. Still I never quite got how they thought to hold it, even if the North is sparsely populated. They probably didn't expect to loose Moat Cailin. Practically empty? 3000 mountain clansmen2000 men with Rodrik2000 men raised with RamsayTwo forces of Umbers300 Karstark men300 Manderly's with most left behind at white harborTallhart, Glovers, Mormonts etc all join Stannis and more every day come. Call it another 1500. That's already near 10000 men and there's more on skaagos, in White Harbor, the flints and dustins and ryswells, along with the Reeds. That's quite a significant number Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegars Heir Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 They don't. But they did somehow get the best of both the Westerlands and the North in the past.yes I'm curious how they did that and can't wait for the next dunk and egg book to explore that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Stark Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Yeah but still to think that they could rebel against the crown previously and then to take the north and hold it they must have had a sizeable force! All boils down to Balon. he wasn't the smartest of the bunch. The Ironborn attacking the North like they did made little sense. They are known, and seen to lack skill in land combat. They lack cavalry, they lack siege engines. Balon launched an attack on Moat Cailin, and Victarion suffered from the bog devils, and was never able to do anything. The rest of Balons forces weren't set on conquest, as they were sent against 2 weak castles to raid. Deepwood Motte is a wooden Motte and Bailey, said to be old but weak, and controlled by a Masterly House, the lowest ranked noble there is. Torrhen's Square is likewise controlled by a Masterly House. Theon was sent to raid villages. Fact is that the Ironborn lack the means to conduct sieges, and the North has some badass castles. The Dreadfort was besieged for 4 years by the might of the North, and never fell. What Balon planned, I have no idea, but based off hi first rebellion he was a fool. The reason they can rebel is the same reason that Skagos could. They are islands. You need a fleet to attack them. On the Ironborns side is the fact that they are greatly skilled at sea. Practically empty?3000 mountain clansmen2000 men with Rodrik2000 men raised with RamsayTwo forces of Umbers300 Karstark men300 Manderly's with most left behind at white harborTallhart, Glovers, Mormonts etc all join Stannis and more every day come. Call it another 1500.That's already near 10000 men and there's more on skaagos, in White Harbor, the flints and dustins and ryswells, along with the Reeds. That's quite a significant number Not to mention the Hornwood men, House Locke which is a Northern great house, and that the Flints are 2 great houses and a clan. The North could have thrown Victarion out at any time. What they lack was simple, leadership. Sadly the leaders went south with Robb, and not much in the way of good leadership remained behind. I've expressed my feelings on Rodrik before. I'll just say that he was not a skill military commander. He might have been a skilled master at arms, but as a commander, he was lacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Kyan of House Bear Posted March 31, 2014 Author Share Posted March 31, 2014 Practically empty? 3000 mountain clansmen2000 men with Rodrik2000 men raised with RamsayTwo forces of Umbers300 Karstark men300 Manderly's with most left behind at white harborTallhart, Glovers, Mormonts etc all join Stannis and more every day come. Call it another 1500. That's already near 10000 men and there's more on skaagos, in White Harbor, the flints and dustins and ryswells, along with the Reeds. That's quite a significant number Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Stark Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 yes I'm curious how they did that and can't wait for the next dunk and egg book to explore that Same way the viking did it. Sea power. They hit fast and run. The Seven Kingdoms just went through a civil war. This is just a guess, but I would bet that the royalist didn't control much of a fleet, or the Iron Throne didn't do much of anything about the Ironborn of Dagon Greyjoy, and left it to the Starks and Lannisters, who lacked fleets. The reason I believe the royalist likely lacked a fleet is that the Gold Company, that is the losers of the war, were able to go to Essos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Practically empty?3000 mountain clansmen2000 men with Rodrik2000 men raised with RamsayTwo forces of Umbers300 Karstark men300 Manderly's with most left behind at white harborTallhart, Glovers, Mormonts etc all join Stannis and more every day come. Call it another 1500.That's already near 10000 men and there's more on skaagos, in White Harbor, the flints and dustins and ryswells, along with the Reeds. That's quite a significant number The actual fighters were still in the south though and many of the remaining men were green boys (like the bunny men or what were they called), look how easy it was to capture some castles. They weren't interested in crannogmen as they captured Moat Cailin and cut them off from the rest of the North. And if they concentrated all their forces on the North they still would have more men and the superior warriors. Wasnt that precisely the problem Theon had though? Winterfell was removed from the coast, as Asha pointed out to him. That was why Balon wanted only to raid the Stoney Shore and take coastal zones/rivers accessible areas. I seriously get confused sometimes what Balon actually wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Recognition? :huh: Infamy :huh: Vengence? :huh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegars Heir Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Same way the viking did it. Sea power. They hit fast and run. The Seven Kingdoms just went through a civil war. This is just a guess, but I would bet that the royalist didn't control much of a fleet, or the Iron Throne didn't do much of anything about the Ironborn of Dagon Greyjoy, and left it to the Starks and Lannisters, who lacked fleets. The reason I believe the royalist likely lacked a fleet is that the Gold Company, that is the losers of the war, were able to go to Essos.that makes sense and Kyle the cat talks about how blood raven was keeping the royal fleet close in case the gold company tried to cross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 The actual fighters were still in the south though and many of the remaining men were green boys (like the bunny men or what were they called), look how easy it was to capture some castles. They weren't interested in crannogmen as they captured Moat Cailin and cut them off from the rest of the North. And if they concentrated all their forces on the North they still would have more men and the superior warriors.And look how easy it was for them to be recaptured. Rodrik took back one castle straight away. He then rrode to winterfell and was betrayed on the cusp of victory. The North was taken by surprise and when it began to fight back began to win againAnd while I would agree that Robb took some of the best men I would not agree about this fully. Ramsays 600 are very well trained. The 3000 clansmen are the same as the ironborn for ferocity.The ironborn do not know the land (see jaime at the whispering wood) and have no heavy or light cavalry as well as what seems like a prevalent use of just infantry. No pike formations and few archers. They are fierce fighters but are set up and trained as raiders, not suited for land battleAnd the crannogmen were taking a toll on Vic and his best soldiers. They can easily rejoin the north and can continue their guerilla war Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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