Cas Stark Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Fully agree.I am even more sceptic. Without proof I am convinced the original plot has been changed when the five year gap got scrapped. Funny you mention that, I've started to wonder myself if he may have become conflicted about his original plan for how the series ends and this is why he's been basically stalling the main storyline, both by slowing the story down, adding all kinds of secondary POVs and not writing it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor!!! Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 It'd be impossible to tell a story without including tropes. A story without tropes wouldn't appeal to anybody past a certain point. Nobody is going to read 7 and possibly 8 massive tomes to find out that nothing they invested in worked out in the slightest and that humanity never had a chance to begin with- . That is untrue. At least one person, me, would read those tomes and to me, everybody dying wouldn't neccessarily be a bad ending - depends on what happens before that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bog Devil of Greywater Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 That is untrue. At least one person, me, would read those tomes and to me, everybody dying wouldn't neccessarily be a bad ending - depends on what happens before that. Fair enough. But that wouldn't change the fact that the basic premise for the story which lead to that ending would have been a trope to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GERM Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Fair enough. But that wouldn't change the fact that the basic premise for the story which lead to that ending would have been a trope to begin with. Don't bring logic to a conversation at a forum where a man is worshipped for something he isn't. Shame on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Don't bring logic to a conversation at a forum where a man is worshipped for something he isn't. Shame on you.Exactly. We can't have common sense injected into these conversations. Then where would we be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bog Devil of Greywater Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Don't bring logic to a conversation at a forum where a man is worshipped for something he isn't. Shame on you. I don't disagree with you- I think Martin is a crafty writer who loves his off-speed pitch as much as he loves his fastball, but I can't understand the idea of him being the great trope-slayer either. If anything, he's really good at getting you to accept trope as an acceptable outcome through the circumstances. No matter whether you believe it's Jon, Dany or Shitmouth- Somebody is going to be Azor Ahai, and that's a trope. He can add plenty of flavor to make it not so cliche as in other fantasy, but it doesn't change he's purposely made a trope a huge part of the final act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GERM Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 I don't disagree with you- I think Martin is a crafty writer who loves his off-speed pitch as much as he loves his fastball, but I can't understand the idea of him being the great trope-slayer either. If anything, he's really good at getting you to accept trope as an acceptable outcome through the circumstances. No matter whether you believe it's Jon, Dany or Shitmouth- Somebody is going to be Azor Ahai, and that's a trope. He can add plenty of flavor to make it not so cliche as in other fantasy, but it doesn't change he's purposely made a trope a huge part of the final act. As an example, I think his magic system is awful and he should have simply left it out IMO. I see what he tried to do with it, but it comes across as a weak attempt, ill-planned and way over-powered for the effort put into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester2chainz Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I'm guessing you haven't heard about the theories that the Others are not evil and in Dany will be the will become the main antagonist. When Dany finally lands in Westeros and your favorite characters are getting roasted your mind will change. The Targaeryn words are Blood and Fire- Dany is just starting to realize that she must go back to her roots. She will cause blood and fire in westeros. This is a world where nothing is black and white-- even the magic users/ magical beings. Look ate Melisandre's POV, she isn't evil, but she certainly isn't good. IF your looking at the books as black and white you haven't read the novels correctly. Granted there are a lot of characters crossing paths, but why make a book if none of the characters interact, that wouldn't make sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtlusTurned Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Did anyone else notice that most of the "generic fantasy tropes/cliches" that everyone is talking about all seem to take place in unwritten content and speculation. I choose to believe GRRM won't end his series in a silly predictable way (Jon Snow, secret lovechild of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen who also happens to be Azor Ahai reborn AND one of the Heads of the Dragon AND he survives certain death through some convoluted magical means so he can go on to save Westeros from the Others and live happily ever after on the Iron Throne. Come on people-who-ship-this-theory! it's cheesy and ridiculous and the one thing in common with every part of it is that none of it has been confirmed). Can we all just have faith that he would save the most shocking and unpredictable events for the final act? Why would he plan to end the FIRST book in a trilogy with the Red Wedding if it would forever be the highpoint of the series? We know from "the Stallion that Mounts the World" that prophecy doesn't always come true. Who knows, maybe Cersei will promptly have her head removed from her shoulders and one of the dragons will die over Mereen and Azor Ahai reborn will die three chapters after they discover their identity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GERM Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Did anyone else notice that most of the "generic fantasy tropes/cliches" that everyone is talking about all seem to take place in unwritten content and speculation. I choose to believe GRRM won't end his series in a silly predictable way (Jon Snow, secret lovechild of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen who also happens to be Azor Ahai reborn AND one of the Heads of the Dragon AND he survives certain death through some convoluted magical means so he can go on to save Westeros from the Others and live happily ever after on the Iron Throne. Come on people-who-ship-this-theory! it's cheesy and ridiculous and the one thing in common with every part of it is that none of it has been confirmed). Can we all just have faith that he would save the most shocking and unpredictable events for the final act? Why would he plan to end the FIRST book in a trilogy with the Red Wedding if it would forever be the highpoint of the series? We know from "the Stallion that Mounts the World" that prophecy doesn't always come true. Who knows, maybe Cersei will promptly have her head removed from her shoulders and one of the dragons will die over Mereen and Azor Ahai reborn will die three chapters after they discover their identity. It's only obvious to people who really analyze these books. Jon and Dany have driven this story for a long time. It is centered around them, and everything seems to build towards their fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Did anyone else notice that most of the "generic fantasy tropes/cliches" that everyone is talking about all seem to take place in unwritten content and speculation. I choose to believe GRRM won't end his series in a silly predictable way (Jon Snow, secret lovechild of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen who also happens to be Azor Ahai reborn AND one of the Heads of the Dragon AND he survives certain death through some convoluted magical means so he can go on to save Westeros from the Others and live happily ever after on the Iron Throne. Come on people-who-ship-this-theory! it's cheesy and ridiculous and the one thing in common with every part of it is that none of it has been confirmed). Can we all just have faith that he would save the most shocking and unpredictable events for the final act? Why would he plan to end the FIRST book in a trilogy with the Red Wedding if it would forever be the highpoint of the series? We know from "the Stallion that Mounts the World" that prophecy doesn't always come true. Who knows, maybe Cersei will promptly have her head removed from her shoulders and one of the dragons will die over Mereen and Azor Ahai reborn will die three chapters after they discover their identity. I'm fairly confident though that Jon is the secret love child of Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he's also the prince that was promised, but I don't know that this means GRRM is going to have the story end with him 'saving the world' and everyone living 'happily ever after'. I also think there is a good chance that Storm of Swords is going to turn out to have been the high point of the series, both dramatically and critically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GERM Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I'm fairly confident though that Jon is the secret love child of Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he's also the prince that was promised, but I don't know that this means GRRM is going to have the story end with him 'saving the world' and everyone living 'happily ever after'. I also think there is a good chance that Storm of Swords is going to turn out to have been the high point of the series, both dramatically and critically. This. Especially the bold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rollo Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I'm guessing you haven't heard about the theories that the Others are not evil and in Dany will be the will become the main antagonist. When Dany finally lands in Westeros and your favorite characters are getting roasted your mind will change. The Targaeryn words are Blood and Fire- Dany is just starting to realize that she must go back to her roots. She will cause blood and fire in westeros. This is a world where nothing is black and white-- even the magic users/ magical beings. Look ate Melisandre's POV, she isn't evil, but she certainly isn't good. IF your looking at the books as black and white you haven't read the novels correctly. Granted there are a lot of characters crossing paths, but why make a book if none of the characters interact, that wouldn't make sense I can buy Dany as the "Big Bad". It would really fit with how her arc has progressed thus far. She controls monsters and she is starting to re-embrace the "Blood and Fire" origins of her house. Vic has delivered Moqorro, a far more effective priest than either Mel or Thoros, to her, so soon she'll have the power of Red Rollo behind her as well as the dragons and the Dothraki. There has been all this foreshadowing regarding insanity in the Targ Line, so, of course, she's going to have to go bonkers. Dany is Azor Ahai reborn and Azor Ahai is nothing but trouble. I can also see the likely possibility of Jon/Bran leading the Others and the Children of the Forest against this Mad Queen Perhaps in the Song of Ice and fire, the Ice is the side we should be pulling for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
It-was-koff-the-Pie-koff Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 In under the impression that asoiaf is a post apocalyptic story...Sorry for spoiling it GRRM.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carey Snow Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 If it was a generic fantasy novel, I highly doubt that we would all reread them so many times, and spend years on a message board trying to guess what will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GERM Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 If it was a generic fantasy novel, I highly doubt that we would all reread them so many times, and spend years on a message board trying to guess what will happen. I re-read all sort of generic fantasy novels. I don't normally visit forums though. Martin, Sanderson and Jordan are the only three authors that have milked that response from me. The first three books are great, the last two are meh, but we'll see how he finishes the series. However, just because they're great doesn't mean that they're not generic. It's fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carey Snow Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I re-read all sort of generic fantasy novels. I don't normally visit forums though. Martin, Sanderson and Jordan are the only three authors that have milked that response from me. The first three books are great, the last two are meh, but we'll see how he finishes the series. However, just because they're great doesn't mean that they're not generic. It's fantasy. It's fantasy, does not make it generic fantasy. I agree, we will see how it ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GERM Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 It's fantasy, does not make it generic fantasy. I agree, we will see how it ends. I never said the fact that they're fantasy makes it generic, but there isn't a ton of truly creative things happening in these books. It is a mirror of our world with dragons and minor magic that can resurrect any person at any time.... He wasn't even going to include dragons until he was pressed. All 5 were well written though, and how he communicates what is going on inside a POV's mind during events is what makes all of his books fascinating. He truly does capture human thought with his writing so well. His writing style sets these books apart. He may be wordy, and he may have a lot of fluff (more in the last 2 books) but the way he captures the mind is what makes these books so good, for me at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygritte Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 People think this series kills off main characters a lot, absolutely untrue. Out of 10 main characters, 9 are alive at end of book 5 [Only Ned has died.] All main characters have very strong plot armor. Just like a traditional fantasy. The way I described it to someone the other day is, the main characters don't actually die all the time. It's just that it takes a while for the main characters to be revealed as such. You think maybe the main character is Ned, maybe it's Robb. Catelyn has a bazillion POV chapters. Viserys would be the hero in a lot of fantasy series--I realized this the other day while sarcastically comparing him to Aragorn--but instead he's an asshole. TV Tropes calls this "Decoy Protagonist." It's in contrast to, say, Wheel of Time, where the three biggies are labeled ta'veren from pretty much the start. And to borrow a little more from TV Tropes, one of the things they say on their main page is that a trope is not necessarily a cliche. It's all in how you use them. You can make me read pretty much any plot element, no matter how many times it's been used before, if you write it well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 The way I described it to someone the other day is, the main characters don't actually die all the time. It's just that it takes a while for the main characters to be revealed as such. You think maybe the main character is Ned, maybe it's Robb. Catelyn has a bazillion POV chapters. Viserys would be the hero in a lot of fantasy series--I realized this the other day while sarcastically comparing him to Aragorn--but instead he's an asshole. TV Tropes calls this "Decoy Protagonist." It's in contrast to, say, Wheel of Time, where the three biggies are labeled ta'veren from pretty much the start. And to borrow a little more from TV Tropes, one of the things they say on their main page is that a trope is not necessarily a cliche. It's all in how you use them. You can make me read pretty much any plot element, no matter how many times it's been used before, if you write it well. I don't think anyone ever thought of Robb as a MC since he doesn't have POV. Nor Viserys...basically, I don't see how anyone who isn't a POV character could be a main character. I would have to say that we got all of our main characters from the POV chapters in the very first book- he intended the series to be 3 books originally, so he would most definitely introduce our main characters right off the bat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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