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Crackpot possibly: Why Ned didn't tell Catelyn the Truth about Jon


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#1 KingMaekarWasHere

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 08:05 PM

So you know how most people believe that the real reason why Ned didn't tell his wife about Jon was because Jon was Rhaegar and Lyanna's son well I just thought up my own crackpot theory, that could explain why Ned didn't tell her! (Might not be true but give it a chance.)

 

What if Ned didn't tell Catelyn the truth because Brandon cheated on Catelyn with Ashara and Jon was born out of that? Or even worse...what if Brandon violated/raped Ashara and because Ned knows that Catelyn loved Brandon, he would never tell her that truth? And what if the baby that Ned found at the Tower and he promised to keep safe for Lyanna is someone like Dark Star, who Ned could have given to the Daynes when he went through the Dayne lands and Starfall? I know all this may seem crackpot or already stated before but I just thought this up a few minutes ago and I felt like I should wright it. But, what if Lyanna's promise was totally not what we expect at all? What if there was no baby or the baby died? That would sure validate a lot of theories out there that Dany is the PTWP, Aemon thought so before he died after all. Thanks for reading guys.


Edited by KingMaekarWasHere, 13 July 2014 - 08:07 PM.


#2 Ellfoy

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 08:13 PM

Brandon died too early to be Jon Snow father but he is probably the father of Ashara stillborn daughter. Darkstar is too old to be the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

 

PLus propheties are always tricky and most of the time, characters don't understand it or misinterprate it before they come to pass. If Aemon say that Dany is the PTWP, well she's not likely the PTWP.



#3 Aeron_Damphair

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 08:19 PM

Better question: Why didn't Ned tell Jon the truth about Jon? If he didn't tell Jon, why would he tell Catelyn? It's obvious why he didn't tell either.


Edited by Aeron_Damphair, 13 July 2014 - 08:19 PM.


#4 KingMaekarWasHere

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 08:20 PM

Brandon died too early to be Jon Snow father but he is probably the father of Ashara stillborn daughter. Darkstar is too old to be the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

 

PLus propheties are always tricky and most of the time, characters don't understand it or misinterprate it before they come to pass. If Aemon say that Dany is the PTWP, well she's not likely the PTWP.

But then again Aemon is a wise one and so GRRM could have made his prediction correct? But then again if what Marwyn says is correct that what could the PTWP prophecy even mean? And which sword would turn out to be the so-called Prince's weapon?



#5 sj4iy

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 08:23 PM

Better question: Why didn't Ned tell Jon the truth about Jon? If he didn't tell Jon, why would he tell Catelyn? It's obvious why he didn't tell either.

 

Jon's young, cocky and stupid when he goes to the Wall...all of the hallmarks of a typical 14-year old boy who thinks he knows more than he actually does.  There's no way he would have kept that information to himself or even have gone to the Wall if he had known about his true heritage.  



#6 Ellfoy

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 08:29 PM

But then again Aemon is a wise one and so GRRM could have made his prediction correct? But then again if what Marwyn says is correct that what could the PTWP prophecy even mean? And which sword would turn out to be the so-called Prince's weapon?

Aemon didn't have all the infos that we have, he believed that Dany is the last surviving Targ so he assumed that she was the PWTP because TPTWP must come from the line of Rhaella and Aerys. He didn't know about Jon Snow or Aegon/ Young Griff (fake or not). 

And the PWTP not necesserally = Azor Ahai. I personnally think that the book characters (Melissandre and Aemon) confuse them because they think that they are the same. I disagree : PTWP = fire and ice; Azor Ahai = only fire.


Edited by Ellfoy, 13 July 2014 - 08:30 PM.


#7 Disputatious

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 08:56 PM

Aemon didn't have all the infos that we have, he believed that Dany is the last surviving Targ so he assumed that she was the PWTP because TPTWP must come from the line of Rhaella and Aerys. He didn't know about Jon Snow or Aegon/ Young Griff (fake or not). 
And the PWTP not necesserally = Azor Ahai. I personnally think that the book characters (Melissandre and Aemon) confuse them because they think that they are the same. I disagree : PTWP = fire and ice; Azor Ahai = only fire.


The PtwP and AAR are are the same, otherwise Aemon would have told Samwell, in discussing the matter that Melisandre had gotten that wrong. It would not have mattered to Aemon that Jon and maybe Young Griff are Rhaegar's son(s). Where are their dragons and when did they wake them from stone? To put it another way: what part of "the dragons prove it" don't you understand?

The question here is, I should note is not who is AAR/TPtwP but rather, what would have Aemon believed given the additional information you stipulate?

#8 It-was-koff-the-Pie-koff

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 09:13 PM

He never told anyone because he made a promise... DURRR

#9 Ellfoy

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 09:14 PM

The PtwP and AAR are are the same, otherwise Aemon would have told Samwell, in discussing the matter that Melisandre had gotten that wrong. It would not have mattered to Aemon that Jon and maybe Young Griff are Rhaegar's son(s). Where are their dragons and when did they wake them from stone? To put it another way: what part of "the dragons prove it" don't you understand?

The question here is, I should note is not who is AAR/TPtwP but rather, what would have Aemon believed given the additional information you stipulate?

Again, Aemon is not omniscient. It's not because he thinks that Azor Ahai and TPTWP are the same that they are. The only concrete thing that we know about the Prince that was promised is that "his is the song of ice and fire" and that well, he was promised. That doesn't seem to fit the Azor Ahai prophecy which is all about fire and waking dragons. I personally think that they are not the same but tied together that's why characters such as Mel and Aemon confuse them. IMO, Dany is Azor Ahai and Jon TPTWP/Lightbringer because I subscribe to the theory that Lightbringer is the metaphor for a person/a weapon (R + L = Lightbringer thread) and that lightbringer = TPTWP, the tales of lightbringer and Azor ahai being so tied together would be in that case the reason why they think Azor Ahai = TPTWP. I admit that the last part about Lightbringer = TPTWP is crackpotish.


Edited by Ellfoy, 13 July 2014 - 09:18 PM.


#10 Ellfoy

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 09:16 PM

The PtwP and AAR are are the same, otherwise Aemon would have told Samwell, in discussing the matter that Melisandre had gotten that wrong. It would not have mattered to Aemon that Jon and maybe Young Griff are Rhaegar's son(s). Where are their dragons and when did they wake them from stone? To put it another way: what part of "the dragons prove it" don't you understand?

The question here is, I should note is not who is AAR/TPtwP but rather, what would have Aemon believed given the additional information you stipulate?

Well if he had heard about Aegon reconquering the iron throne, he may have thought that Aegon suit better the promise of the PTWP rather than Dany still sitting in Essos.

 

To put it another way: I don't think that actual dragons matter in the PTWP prophecy, dragons refers IMO to Targaryens.


Edited by Ellfoy, 13 July 2014 - 09:31 PM.


#11 Aeron_Damphair

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 09:26 PM

He never told anyone because he made a promise... DURRR

This and only this



#12 Aeron_Damphair

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 09:27 PM

 

Jon's young, cocky and stupid when he goes to the Wall...all of the hallmarks of a typical 14-year old boy who thinks he knows more than he actually does.  There's no way he would have kept that information to himself or even have gone to the Wall if he had known about his true heritage.  

And as much older as Catelyn is than Jon, she has shown herself to be no more discreet. The reason he didn't tell either is the same.



#13 sj4iy

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 09:40 PM

And as much older as Catelyn is than Jon, she has shown herself to be no more discreet. The reason he didn't tell either is the same.


Her reasoning would be different. She wouldn't gossip about it, but she would sing if her family were threatened. She's also too trusting of people like LF or her sister, so it would very well come out through those means, as well.

#14 Aeron_Damphair

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 10:08 PM

I guess the main thing is that if Jon's mother was Ashara or Wylla, there wouldn't be reason enough not to tell Jon who she was. If Jon's mother is Lyanna, there's obviously ample reason not to tell either Jon or Cat who she was.

 

If it is Ashara or Wylla, it is silly to ask why Ned wouldn't tell Cat before asking why he didn't tell Jon.



#15 LordStoneheart

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 10:31 PM

I see no reason she should be disappointed that Brandon was with Ashara. She was alright with Ned being with other women during the war when they were actually married.



#16 JPJK79

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 11:17 PM

As others have said Jon isn't old enough to have been the son of Brandon and Ashara. Hell he isn't old enough to be Ned and Ashara's child. And as the PtwP. "Promise me, Ned. Promise me. I Promise, Lya I promise."- Jon is the PtwP cause his life was based off a promise. To me that is how prophecies work. They come out naturally.



#17 KingMaekarWasHere

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 11:26 PM

I see no reason she should be disappointed that Brandon was with Ashara. She was alright with Ned being with other women during the war when they were actually married.

But she was "in love" with Brandon, the same way Lyanna was with Rhaegar. Though Catelyn didn't have the wolf blood and wasn't willing to run off with Brandon before marrying him. So maybe her love was lust but it was intense one could say. And if she knew Jon was Brandon's child by another woman then she might have hated Jon out of deep jelousy. She doesn't hate Ned though for being with Ashara because she never had the same deep feelings for Ned as with Brandon. Just some ideas I could be wrong.



#18 Stubby

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 11:44 PM

[MOD]

 

This idea is close enough to R+L=J that it belongs in that thread.

 

Thanks.

 

[/MOD]