R+L=J v.90

[Aeron_Damphair]

You're not being nice. I think I can question the theory, or else what would be the point of this thread?

Of course you can, and perhaps you intended to do so intelligibly, but you had not demonstrated that by the time I responded to you.

[BearQueen87]

I would say one week pregnant. We know that Jonothor Darry was with Jaime when Daenerys was conceived, two weeks before the sack. One week to the Trident, and a bird flight for news to reach King's Landing.

I bow to your understanding of the timeline. :)

I'm confused about the timeline. :bang:

If he stayed there for nine months, why didn't Robert or Tywin try to kill him before he had a chance to move?

Probably because the war was still going on. There's a lot that happens. The Trident, The Sack, lifting the siege at Storm's End, Tower of Joy. The realm was probably in chaos, even after Robert was crowned. Tywin had just entered the war right after the Trident; Stannis was at Storm's End (hungry), Ned was in Starfall after the ToJ. There are a lot of factors.

[mambru]

You didn't understand my post. The default is clear. You will do everything you can to shift the burden of proof from the default to your hypothesis by introducing every possible exception. You believe you have the support of the author and the text. You make loose and tenuous connections that satisfy no one but yourself that these connections are applicable when they are not.

Dude, many of the people on this thread are lovely, thoughtful, intelligent, respectful people - but this thread is NOT the universe.

[MtnLion]

I'm confused about the timeline. :bang:

If he stayed there for nine months, why didn't Robert or Tywin try to kill him before he had a chance to move?

When Ned lifted the siege of Storm's End he tasked Stannis with taking Dragonstone. To help he turns over his forces to Stannis, and sends the Redwyne fleet that had blockaded Storm's End to blockade Dragonstone. Stannis must first construct vessels for the assault, which takes about a year.

[Aeron_Damphair]

Dude, many of the people on this thread are lovely, thoughtful, intelligent, respectful people - but this thread is NOT the universe.

Sorry, that particular part may have been a bit harsh and overstated. What I mean is that you have managed to convince yourself that certain situations such as Barristan, Bob, and the boar, or Duskendale present legitimate problems for R+L=Legit J. I do not believe that this is the case. That you have convinced yourself of this, and other things, is not noteworthy to me. I don't think you've sufficiently demonstrated these principles.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

I bow to your understanding of the timeline. :)

Probably because the war was still going on. There's a lot that happens. The Trident, The Sack, lifting the siege at Storm's End, Tower of Joy. The realm was probably in chaos, even after Robert was crowned. Tywin had just entered the war right after the Trident; Stannis was at Storm's End (hungry), Ned was in Starfall after the ToJ. There are a lot of factors.

Even after the Civil war was over, the U.S was still in chaos. There were minor battles after the South lost the war.

[Bran17]

AH. Well, for me personally I figured R+L = J on my own, but it took this forum and talking to the regular posters here for me to get why they thought R and L were married and J was legit. I never put it together. MntLion's ToJ analysis did wonders. And then I talked with a lot of people on these R and L threads about it.

I never figured R + L = J. Actually, I never really cared about Jon's mother. It didn't seem that important after the first book, and I read AGoT too slowly to remember the details and put the pieces together.

I believe in it, but the legitimate part feels... Not right. Like GRRM pushed too far to make sure we wouldn't figure that out. I'd find it cheap. :frown5:

[Bran17]

That's kind of why I prefer the secondary threads for actually discussing the possibility of the legitimacy or not of Jon.

I see your point. :cool4:

[Aeron_Damphair]

I never figured R + L = J. Actually, I never really cared about Jon's mother. It didn't seem that important after the first book, and I read AGoT too slowly to remember the details and put the pieces together.

I believe in it, but the legitimate part feels... Not right. Like GRRM pushed too far to make sure we wouldn't figure that out. I'd find it cheap. :frown5:

If Jon is not legit, the magnitude of the secret is incredibly diminished. (This alone is a pretty significant piece of evidence in favor of his legitimacy, considering Ned never revealed the identity of his mother even to him) The themes of bastardy and legitimacy are extremely important to Game of Thrones especially. You have the Baratheon children who are bastards that are believed trueborn. Jon represents a possible mirror image of this which really balances the themes of the narrative. I don't find it cheap at all. I find it satisfying.

[BearQueen87]

I never figured R + L = J. Actually, I never really cared about Jon's mother. It didn't seem that important after the first book, and I read AGoT too slowly to remember the details and put the pieces together.

I believe in it, but the legitimate part feels... Not right. Like GRRM pushed too far to make sure we wouldn't figure that out. I'd find it cheap. :frown5:

I think he's very carefully laid the clues. There is a great thread or two about Jon the hidden prince. (someone find it faster then I can maybe??) But there have been a ton of clues but most of the time, people read right over them.

ETA: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79816-a-king-in-hiding-adding-it-all-up/

There's part of it

[stateofdissipation]

The primary vow of the Kingsguard is just that: guard the king.

We believe that news of Rhaegar's death, the Sack of KL, the death of Aerys and Aegon all reach the ToJ around the same time. They would also know that Viserys, who is now heir to the Targaryen throne, would have fled to Dragonstone. If the 3KG believed even for a second that Viserys was the true heir, one of them would have gone to Dragonstone because the King needs 1 KG with him. Hightower, the LC of the KG and by all accounts an absolute stickler for KG rules, would have booked it to Dragonstone, even if he left Dayne and Whent at the ToJ for Lyanna/the baby. The fact that all three of them remain AND that they are, in Ned's dream, declaring very loudly and proudly that they are KG and they do not flee because they swore a vow leads us to believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and that Jon is their child and heir.

The primary vow of the Kingsguard is just that: guard the king.

The Kingsguard are sworn to obey the king, but the first duty laid on them is to protect him

(III: 757)http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Section/2.1.3.2./

We believe that news of Rhaegar's death, the Sack of KL, the death of Aerys and Aegon all reach the ToJ around the same time.

With no basis in text or canon

They would also know that Viserys, who is now heir to the Targaryen throne, would have fled to Dragonstone.

--In spite of Hightower's assertion that Kingsguard does not flee.

--In spite of the fact Dragonstone was 900 miles away and on the wrong side of the rebel armies.

If the 3KG believed even for a second that Viserys was the true heir, one of them would have gone to Dragonstone because the King needs 1 KG with him.

The White Swords take turns at shielding the king and the royal family (II: 211)

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Section/2.1.3.2./

Hightower, the LC of the KG and by all accounts an absolute stickler for KG rules,

As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, ‘You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree."--Jamie Lannister aCoK chapter 55

would have booked it to Dragonstone,

--900 miles away on the wrong side of the rebel armies.

--In spite of the fact that the last time a Targaryen king was without KG practicalities dictated a 6 month wait by Gerald Hightower.

Taking a small force that included only one Kingsguard knight, Aerys personally marched to Duskendale to arrest and execute Lord Denys. Denys panicked and took the king prisoner.

Lord Tywin was left to resolve the crisis himself, amassing an army and laying siege to the town in what became known as the Defiance of Duskendale. The situation remained in a stalemate for six months, with Denys threatening to execute the king at the first sign that Tywin intended to storm the town. Finally, Ser Barristan Selmy of the Kingsguard staged a daring infiltration and managed to rescue the king.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aerys_II_Targaryen

even if he left Dayne and Whent at the ToJ for Lyanna/the baby.

Though the text has no baby is present at the showdown

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks. and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.---aGoT page 409 paperback.

Promise me Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood.--aGoT page 608 paperback.

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. .---aGoT page 410 paperback.

"I know every secret of the bloody bed, silver lady, nor have I ever lost a babe." Mirri Maz Duur replied.--aGoT page 650 paperback.

"That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain."

- AFfC p. 21

We have an example of a woman (Elia) bedridden for 6 months after childbirth without a mention of a bed of blood or bloody bed--aDwD chapter 51

BIRTH

500mls or less, others 600 mls or less, a few suggest that 1000mls (bed of blood or bloody bed)--- 1000ml is 2.8 cans of coke.

http://www.birth.com...al#.U8zYSfl_vT8

POSTPARTUM BLEEDING

60-80 ml or more. (spotted sheets)---- 80 ml is 1.3 eight hour energy shots

http://www.whattoexp...m-bleeding.aspx

http://www.patient.c...ods-menorrhagia

The fact that all three of them remain AND that they are, in Ned's dream,

wow that is accurate

declaring very loudly and proudly that they are KG and they do not flee because

Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.

they swore a vow

The Kingsguard, also known poetically as the White Swords or White Cloaks, are the royal bodyguards of the Iron Throne. Supposedly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms, they are sworn to protect their king and the royal family with their own lives, to obey his commands, and to keep his secrets. They are sworn for life and are forbidden from owning land, taking a wife, or fathering children http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Kingsguard

leads us to believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and that Jon is their child and heir.

sorry that belief led from beginning to end.

Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Gerold Hightower, and Ser Oswell Whent were ordered by Rhaegar to stand guard at the 'tower of joy' near Dorne. All three died there (I: 354-356)

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Section/2.1.3.2./

[Bran17]

I bow to your understanding of the timeline. :)

Probably because the war was still going on. There's a lot that happens. The Trident, The Sack, lifting the siege at Storm's End, Tower of Joy. The realm was probably in chaos, even after Robert was crowned. Tywin had just entered the war right after the Trident; Stannis was at Storm's End (hungry), Ned was in Starfall after the ToJ. There are a lot of factors.

Hmmm... Right.

I still can't see why they wouldn't see "killing Viserys" as a priority(since Robert seemed so determined to do that and even more years later), but at least there's an explanation.

[stateofdissipation]

Oh, right. It's all about our wants and desires, as opposed to applying the theory that best fits all of the available evidence. :rolleyes:

you lack evidence of

The birth pre-ToJ

Information the KG had and when

[Bran17]

If Jon is not legit, the magnitude of the secret is incredibly diminished. (This alone is a pretty significant piece of evidence in favor of his legitimacy) The themes of bastardy and legitimacy are extremely important to Game of Thrones especially. You have the Baratheon children who are bastards that are believed trueborn. Jon represents a possible mirror image of this which really balances the themes of the narrative. I don't find it cheap at all. I find it satisfying.

I'd agree with you, but I didn't feel like Jon's parentage was truly important to the plot. It was only brought up frequently in AGoT and 2 or 3 times after that. It doesn't seem pivotal to the plot.(of course it couldn't be too obvious, but anyway, not enough focus, IMO.)

I'd find it cheap because bigamy was not something usual at that time, and we know Rhaegar was married to Elia. They were in the middle of a war, why exactly, even if he loved Lyanna, would he marry her? And if he did that, how would it be legal?

It feels like he decided to marry to make sure his son with her would be king if he died, which is totally forced, IMO. It's so "perfect", that doesn't seem natural.

[zeppelincheetah]

I was very skeptical at first about it. I read the books but never came to that conclusion. Afterwards I read all of the evidence on this site and still wasn't convinced. What really convinced me that it 100% is R+L=J is the fact that George asked David and Dan who they thought Jon's mother was. I highly doubt it wasn't the same conclusion I had, some fisherman's daughter. And now Sean Bean further confirmed it, saying outright Ned wasn't Jon's father. I really don't like the theory. This isn't a typical fiction series. If this was a Harry Potter story I would think it would be cool, but this is a story that gets rid of cliches and throws out our typical expectations. After ned's death, the red wedding, etc. the idea of a hero rising up who is the son of the legendary Rhaegar Targaryan sounds too neat and pretty.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

Beginning of GoT: Jon was fourteen years old. Dany was thirteen year old.

Jon was born nine months before Dany.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robert's_Rebellion

Jon was born at the end of the war in 283. Dany was born in 284.

[BearQueen87]

I'd agree with you, but I didn't feel like Jon's parentage was truly important to the plot. It was only brought up frequently in AGoT and 2 or 3 times after that. It doesn't seem pivotal to the plot.(of course it couldn't be too obvious, but anyway, not enough focus, IMO.)

I'd find it cheap because bigamy was not something usual at that time, and we know Rhaegar was married to Elia. They were in the middle of a war, why exactly, even if he loved Lyanna, would he marry her? And if he did that, how would it be legal?

It feels like he decided to marry to make sure his son with her would be king if he died, which is totally forced, IMO. It's so "perfect", that doesn't seem natural.

It's truly important to Jon. Think about how many times he thinks about being a bastard--or how about in ADWD where he's offered WF and legitimization. It might feel like it stopped being important because Ned died but that's because Ned's the only one who knows the truth. No one else has haunting memories of Lyanna in her bed of blood so until Howland Reed shows up...*soon*

Polygamy was out of practice but not illegal. Rhaegar doesn't need permission of his father or the Faith. And if he's planning on usurping Aerys anyway.. And we think Rhaegar married Lyanna before the Rebellion started. I think they got married very soon after Lyanna was "taken" from Harrenhal (or someplace nearby)

And I think he married her 1) love and 2) because their child would be the son of Ice and Fire and thus, Rhaegar believed the child would be The Prince Who Was Promised

I was very skeptical at first about it. I read the books but never came to that conclusion. Afterwards I read all of the evidence on this site and still wasn't convinced. What really convinced me that it 100% is R+L=J is the fact that George asked David and Dan who they thought Jon's mother was. I highly doubt it wasn't the same conclusion I had, some fisherman's daughter. And now Sean Bean further confirmed it, saying outright Ned wasn't Jon's father. I really don't like the theory. This isn't a typical fiction series. If this was a Harry Potter story I would think it would be cool, but this is a story that gets rid of cliches and throws out our typical expectations. After ned's death, the red wedding, etc. the idea of a hero rising up who is the son of the legendary Rhaegar Targaryan sounds too neat and pretty.

We've had a lot of talks recently in this thread about the idea you're presenting. GRRM is good; he is. And ASOIAF is my favorite series. But GRRM isn't actually subverting all the tropes. He likes to say that he is, but in reality he's keeping somewhat close to the known. I would say that his specialty is making the grey characters, not taking tropes and finding a way to break them. And when it comes to Jon, he's walking down the heroic road.

[Bran17]

I think he's very carefully laid the clues. There is a great thread or two about Jon the hidden prince. (someone find it faster then I can maybe??) But there have been a ton of clues but most of the time, people read right over them.

ETA: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79816-a-king-in-hiding-adding-it-all-up/

There's part of it

And that's precisely why I don't like it. He was so careful, it feels contrived.

He made sure Rhaegar was already married when he kidnapped Lyanna, so we wouldn't even think of another wife and legitimate kids.

He made sure that Catelyn would hate Jon, to make us sure that Ned was truly his father and couldn't do anything to make that situation easier to the three of them.

Those two points don't make me feel like the theory isn't accurate, of course it is.

But if it happens, I won't like it, specially if he's legitimate. I don't care if he becomes king(I wouldn't like, but that's it), but if it happens because he's the legitimate son of a prince with a second wife, I'll regret the fact I read this series in the 1st place.

[Aeron_Damphair]

And that's precisely why I don't like it. He was so careful, it feels contrived.

He made sure Rhaegar was already married when he kidnapped Lyanna, so we wouldn't even think of another wife and legitimate kids.

He made sure that Catelyn would hate Jon, to make us sure that Ned was truly his father and couldn't do anything to make that situation easier to the three of them.

Those two points don't make me feel like the theory isn't accurate, of course it is.

But if it happens, I won't like it, specially if he's legitimate. I don't care if he becomes king(I wouldn't like, but that's it), but if it happens because he's the legitimate son of a prince with a second wife, I'll regret the fact I read this series in the 1st place.

Gosh that's a bit extreme! Prepared to be disappointed then, would be my advice. I argue though, that if you didn't come up with R+L=J yourself, it's hard to say that it was too perfect so as to be contrived. It was a well concealed mystery and I'm surprised you'd be so disappointed about it.

[BearQueen87]

And that's precisely why I don't like it. He was so careful, it feels contrived.

He made sure Rhaegar was already married when he kidnapped Lyanna, so we wouldn't even think of another wife and legitimate kids.

He made sure that Catelyn would hate Jon, to make us sure that Ned was truly his father and couldn't do anything to make that situation easier to the three of them.

Those two points don't make me feel like the theory isn't accurate, of course it is.

But if it happens, I won't like it, specially if he's legitimate. I don't care if he becomes king(I wouldn't like, but that's it), but if it happens because he's the legitimate son of a prince with a second wife, I'll regret the fact I read this series in the 1st place.

A lot of people have feelings on this. But I'll give my own. I don't think Jon will become king BECAUSE of his heritage, but rather he'll be elected by Great Council and due to his efforts in the War for the Dawn. I think his heritage matters to him personally and to Dany, so that she'll bend the knee to the rightful King, but for Westeros it's going to come down to his deeds against the Others.